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Dark Eldar are more than just the Kabals - there's Kabals, Covens and Cults.

But either way - they used to have the expansion books.
I remember in 3rd you could buy the Guard codex and expand it with catachan or whatever, and you had the Craftworlds expansion. I think there were others.

And of course all the different chapter approved mini-dexs and the sort.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I've said this before, but you can still play an Inquisition army in the Grey Knight codex.

So I can still have my army led by my Laspistol wielding Inquisitrix and her three Servo-Skull bodyguard, backed up by two smaller Malleus units with Psycannons and Combat-Servitors, and 6 squads of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers? I can still do that can I?

More or less, yes. The henchmen unit is pretty diverse. You can have servitors in a unit, although I'll admit you won't be able to take Psycannons.

For the inquisitorial stormtroopers, use Warrior Acolytes and give them carapace armor and hot-shot lasguns.

Bam. There you go.

Frankly, I would leave all the xenos codices as is. I would condense Loyal Marines into "Vanilla", Templar, and Wolves. The DA and BA would get their HQ units in the vanilla dex, and they would "unlock" their rules similar to how Calgar and Vulkan work now. This would also allow guys to take a "fluffy" army that would truly be good at deep striking without the BA dex (Raven Guard) etc. It is my opinion that the Wolves and Templars actually do play much much differently from the Vanilla dex.

I'd update the "Inquisition" codices, possibly combining them. For instance, if a player took a generic inquisitor, they could take a "Mark" (similar to chaos) that would unlock the ability to take Sisters, or GK (they could always take storm trooper henchmen), though I am really lost on how to make a Death Watch army within this one book)

I would also expand the Chaos book. RIght now, it really feels too much like Chaos Renegades. I would make a Chaos Legions, and Chaos "LatD", with the Chaos Daemons as the third book.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:I've said this before, but you can still play an Inquisition army in the Grey Knight codex.

So I can still have my army led by my Laspistol wielding Inquisitrix and her three Servo-Skull bodyguard, backed up by two smaller Malleus units with Psycannons and Combat-Servitors, and 6 squads of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers? I can still do that can I?

More or less, yes. The henchmen unit is pretty diverse. You can have servitors in a unit, although I'll admit you won't be able to take Psycannons.

For the inquisitorial stormtroopers, use Warrior Acolytes and give them carapace armor and hot-shot lasguns.

Bam. There you go.

Yeah, this. Codex: GK added a great deal more than it removed from Codex: Daemonhunters.

And, well. . . every time a Codex gets updated, armies get invalidated. That's just the way the game goes. When Orks got updated way back when, I lost my Skarboyz, my Big Mek's Mekboy bodyguard, and, of course, my Looted Leman Russ. You change the army, you figure out something new, you keep playing. Everybody has to do it. There are plenty of things to whine about in C: GK, but "Bawww there's a new codex and now my army has to change!" ain't one of them.

Back on topic: Either condense the Space Marines or widen everything else comparably. Of course, if they widen every other range to the level of Space Marines we'd end up with about sixty codexes, so just combine some/all of the Space Marine chapters and add in doctrine/specialization options to the various other codexes.

Brother Coa wrote:This is how I would do it:

Codex: Adeptus Astartes ( All Space Marie Chapters with all of chapters having special tactics and rules ).
Codex: Imperial Guard ( All Regiments in one book and special rules and tactics for each one ).
Codex: Inquisition ( All 3 orders wit htheir chamber militant with each of chambers special rules and tactics ).
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus ( They to deseve a codex being 2'nd most powerful faction in the Imeprium ).
Codex: Forcess of Chaos ( Chaos Space Marines with both warbands, legions and renegade chapters with Daemons and Renegade Militia, all with their special rules and tactics ).
Codex: Eldar ( Craftworld Eldar, Exodite Eldar and Harlequines with all of their special rules and tactics )
Codex: Dark Eldar ( All Dark Eldar Cabals with their uniqu ruels and tactics ).
Codex: Tyranids ( All Hive Fleets with each hive fleet with it's special rules and tactics ).
Codex: Necrons ( All Dynasties, each with it's own special ruels and tactics ).
Codex: Tau ( Tau, Kroot, Demiurg, Gue'Vesha and Vespid, liberty to play with each of them as unique army for itself with their own special Tactics and rules ).
Codex: Orks ( Every clan with it's own special ruels and tactics ).

I really like this layout, though to streamline it more, you could merge Admech and IG together, since the Skitari Legions are basicly cyber-enhanced guard regiments and could be done using altered force org. and special rules.

Let's not mince words here, if GW did do this, each book would likely be about 1/2 an inch thick and double in cost.

Emperordammit, why do so many people try to throw the Sisters back into an Inquisition Codex, just because GW made the mistake of doing this in a single book? They're an Ecclesiarchy army first and foremost!

1hadhq wrote:One book to rule them all Remove codices - give us an army book, 500 + pages to contain them all.
Voila- no more whining of " left behind" etc as everyone has its army at once updated.

It would be doable, actually... With less than 500 pages. The Codex Imperialis was quite awesome.

Lynata wrote:Emperordammit, why do so many people try to throw the Sisters back into an Inquisition Codex, just because GW made the mistake of doing this in a single book? They're an Ecclesiarchy army first and foremost!

1hadhq wrote:One book to rule them all Remove codices - give us an army book, 500 + pages to contain them all.
Voila- no more whining of " left behind" etc as everyone has its army at once updated.

It would be doable, actually... With less than 500 pages. The Codex Imperialis was quite awesome.

SOB are dumb, they shouldn't have their own codex at all.
There should only be two Imperium codex, IG and SM.

Joey wrote:
SOB are dumb, they shouldn't have their own codex at all.
There should only be two Imperium codex, IG and SM.

What a very limited perspective. The IoM is one of the two largest factions in the setting, and certainly the least homogeneous; why on earth should they be limited to only two codexes? SM, IG, Mechanicus, and Servants of the Emperor (Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, and AdMech) could work well. I tend to agree that the Sisters of Battle are kind of a small faction to get a codex entirely to themselves, but there's absolutely no reason to cut down the Imperium that far.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
SOB are dumb, they shouldn't have their own codex at all.
There should only be two Imperium codex, IG and SM.

What a very limited perspective. The IoM is one of the two largest factions in the setting, and certainly the least homogeneous; why on earth should they be limited to only two codexes? SM, IG, Mechanicus, and Servants of the Emperor (Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, and AdMech) could work well. I tend to agree that the Sisters of Battle are kind of a small faction to get a codex entirely to themselves, but there's absolutely no reason to cut down the Imperium that far.

Look outside of the fluff.
The IG are trillions(googleplexes?) of men across countles etc etc.
The SM are badass space knights.
How could you explain Mechanicus and "servants of the emperor" in a few words to someone who wasn't familiar with 40k canon?
Hell I'm more familiar with most but I'd still have no idea what a Mechanicus codex would actually entail...mainly since they don't actually do any fighting IIRC. So giving them their own codex would be a little odd.
An Inquisitor book would work though. GK really don't need their own codex.

Joey wrote:
Look outside of the fluff.
The IG are trillions(googleplexes?) of men across countles etc etc.
The SM are badass space knights.
How could you explain Mechanicus and "servants of the emperor" in a few words to someone who wasn't familiar with 40k canon?
Hell I'm more familiar with most but I'd still have no idea what a Mechanicus codex would actually entail...mainly since they don't actually do any fighting IIRC. So giving them their own codex would be a little odd.
An Inquisitor book would work though. GK really don't need their own codex.

The Adeptus Mechanicus are cyberpunk wizards. Their codex would include the Tech-Guard (cyborg Imperial Guard), battle servitors, and a huge number of strange vehicles, possibly including Knights (mini-Titans, essentially very large Dreadnoughts).

Servants of the Emperor are members of the various branches of His Imperial Majesty's Most Holy Secret Service. James Bond with a rosarius and a flamethrower. Pitiless assassins, secret agents with insane devices, and ravening religious fanatics, sometimes all at once.

That's how I'd explain them.

I wouldn't get rid of ANY of the armies. Unlike quite a few players I had the dubious honor of having my army removed completely from 40k and it is not a good feeling. Regardless of what other people think about if they fit in the 40k universe or not, removing anyone's army is never a good idea. Especially after someone has spent a ton of money on the army. How would you personally feel if they removed your favorite army after you spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on them?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
Look outside of the fluff.
The IG are trillions(googleplexes?) of men across countles etc etc.
The SM are badass space knights.
How could you explain Mechanicus and "servants of the emperor" in a few words to someone who wasn't familiar with 40k canon?
Hell I'm more familiar with most but I'd still have no idea what a Mechanicus codex would actually entail...mainly since they don't actually do any fighting IIRC. So giving them their own codex would be a little odd.
An Inquisitor book would work though. GK really don't need their own codex.

The Adeptus Mechanicus are inhuman, cyberpunk sorcerers. Their codex would include the Tech-Guard (cyborg Imperial Guard), battle servitors, and a huge number of strange vehicles, possibly including Knights (mini-Titans, essentially very large Dreadnoughts).

Servants of the Emperor are members of the various branches of His Imperial Majesty's Most Holy Secret Service. James Bond with a rosarius and a flamethrower. Pitiless assassins, secret agents with insane devices, and ravening religious fanatics, sometimes all at once.

That's how I'd explain them.

You make a compelling case of Adeptus Mechanicus, though I don't find anthropomorphic robots very cool (other than tech-priests themselves). They'd also be able to use those GK dread-knight things without looking horiffically out of place.
I'd still favour Inquisition rulebook over Servants of the Emperor, though.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I tend to agree that the Sisters of Battle are kind of a small faction to get a codex entirely to themselves

Size by numbers isn't that important - you won't ever have a 40k game where this actually starts to play any role whatsoever. Otherwise you might as well can the Space Marines, for in comparison to the Imperial Guard and the overall number of battles fought across the galaxy they pale just as much. What is important is their uniqueness in fluff and visual design, and I daresay that the Sisters are filling a rather distinctive role since the very first edition of 40k.

AdMech on the other hand is much more of a problem since they don't deploy in a conventional military manner. It might be possible to deliver them in a new Apocalypse Codex where they share the book with the game rules. Or GW would have to come up with some more fluff for Inquisitor-like Explorator missions, which is pretty much the only capacity in which the AdMech ever engages in an offensive manner, aside from their supporting role in larger Imperial campaigns.

Joey wrote:How could you explain Mechanicus and "servants of the emperor" in a few words to someone who wasn't familiar with 40k canon?

Wait, that is the problem?
Sisters: badass female space knights
AdMech: huge fething killing machines

Lynata wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I tend to agree that the Sisters of Battle are kind of a small faction to get a codex entirely to themselves

Size by numbers isn't that important - you won't ever have a 40k game where this actually starts to play any role whatsoever. Otherwise you might as well can the Space Marines, for in comparison to the Imperial Guard and the overall number of battles fought across the galaxy they pale just as much. What is important is their uniqueness in fluff and visual design, and I daresay that the Sisters are filling a rather distinctive role since the very first edition of 40k.

AdMech on the other hand is much more of a problem since they don't deploy in a conventional military manner. It might be possible to deliver them in a new Apocalypse Codex where they share the book with the game rules. Or GW would have to come up with some more fluff for Inquisitor-like Explorator missions, which is pretty much the only capacity in which the AdMech ever engages in an offensive manner, aside from their supporting role in larger Imperial campaigns.

Joey wrote:How could you explain Mechanicus and "servants of the emperor" in a few words to someone who wasn't familiar with 40k canon?

Wait, that is the problem?
Sisters: badass fanatical female space warrior nuns
AdMech: huge fething killing machines

Fix'd it.

Lynata wrote:Size by numbers isn't that important - you won't ever have a 40k game where this actually starts to play any role whatsoever. Otherwise you might as well can the Space Marines, for in comparison to the Imperial Guard and the overall number of battles fought across the galaxy they pale just as much. What is important is their uniqueness in fluff and visual design, and I daresay that the Sisters are filling a rather distinctive role since the very first edition of 40k.

AdMech on the other hand is much more of a problem since they don't deploy in a conventional military manner. It might be possible to deliver them in a new Apocalypse Codex where they share the book with the game rules. Or GW would have to come up with some more fluff for Inquisitor-like Explorator missions, which is pretty much the only capacity in which the AdMech ever engages in an offensive manner, aside from their supporting role in larger Imperial campaigns.

I DO think size is a factor, at least when you get down to sizes this small. There are literally only a few thousand Sisters of Battle in the whole damn galaxy. There are 20,000 Imperial Stormtroopers; they only get a unit in the IG Codex, and that's as it should be.

By comparison, there are ~500 Space Marines for every single Imperial Stormtrooper. A tiny fraction of the numbers the IG muster? Yes. But enough of them that you can make a reasonable argument for some of them being present in any given large warzone. With the Sisters of Battle, that's a bit sketchier.

Furthermore, I actually have to say that I don't think the Sisters of Battle are particularly unique, either in the fluff or on the tabletop. Fluff-wise, they're the Ecclesiarchy's personal army, just like the ISTs are the Inquisitions personal army and the PDF are any given Governor's personal army and. . .

On the tabletop, they're Space Marines light, with extra flamer. They don't have anything particularly special going for them, and I personally feel they'd do better as part of a larger Codex: Either Servants of the Emperor, or Ecclesiarchy, or SOMETHING. SoB alone just don't quite cut it. Of course, others can certainly disagree.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Lynata wrote:Size by numbers isn't that important - you won't ever have a 40k game where this actually starts to play any role whatsoever. Otherwise you might as well can the Space Marines, for in comparison to the Imperial Guard and the overall number of battles fought across the galaxy they pale just as much. What is important is their uniqueness in fluff and visual design, and I daresay that the Sisters are filling a rather distinctive role since the very first edition of 40k.

AdMech on the other hand is much more of a problem since they don't deploy in a conventional military manner. It might be possible to deliver them in a new Apocalypse Codex where they share the book with the game rules. Or GW would have to come up with some more fluff for Inquisitor-like Explorator missions, which is pretty much the only capacity in which the AdMech ever engages in an offensive manner, aside from their supporting role in larger Imperial campaigns.

I DO think size is a factor, at least when you get down to sizes this small. There are literally only a few thousand Sisters of Battle in the whole damn galaxy. There are 20,000 Imperial Stormtroopers; they only get a unit in the IG Codex, and that's as it should be.

By comparison, there are ~500 Space Marines for every single Imperial Stormtrooper. A tiny fraction of the numbers the IG muster? Yes. But enough of them that you can make a reasonable argument for some of them being present in any given large warzone. With the Sisters of Battle, that's a bit sketchier.

Furthermore, I actually have to say that I don't think the Sisters of Battle are particularly unique, either in the fluff or on the tabletop. Fluff-wise, they're the Ecclesiarchy's personal army, just like the ISTs are the Inquisitions personal army and the PDF are any given Governor's personal army and. . .

On the tabletop, they're Space Marines light, with extra flamer. They don't have anything particularly special going for them, and I personally feel they'd do better as part of a larger Codex: Either Servants of the Emperor, or Ecclesiarchy, or SOMETHING. SoB alone just don't quite cut it. Of course, others can certainly disagree.

Codex Grey Knights.
Your argument is invalid.
Seriously GW, wtf? C: Daemonhunters made more sense considering the use of GK.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Lynata wrote:Size by numbers isn't that important - you won't ever have a 40k game where this actually starts to play any role whatsoever. Otherwise you might as well can the Space Marines, for in comparison to the Imperial Guard and the overall number of battles fought across the galaxy they pale just as much. What is important is their uniqueness in fluff and visual design, and I daresay that the Sisters are filling a rather distinctive role since the very first edition of 40k.

AdMech on the other hand is much more of a problem since they don't deploy in a conventional military manner. It might be possible to deliver them in a new Apocalypse Codex where they share the book with the game rules. Or GW would have to come up with some more fluff for Inquisitor-like Explorator missions, which is pretty much the only capacity in which the AdMech ever engages in an offensive manner, aside from their supporting role in larger Imperial campaigns.

I DO think size is a factor, at least when you get down to sizes this small. There are literally only a few thousand Sisters of Battle in the whole damn galaxy. There are 20,000 Imperial Stormtroopers; they only get a unit in the IG Codex, and that's as it should be.

By comparison, there are ~500 Space Marines for every single Imperial Stormtrooper. A tiny fraction of the numbers the IG muster? Yes. But enough of them that you can make a reasonable argument for some of them being present in any given large warzone. With the Sisters of Battle, that's a bit sketchier.

Furthermore, I actually have to say that I don't think the Sisters of Battle are particularly unique, either in the fluff or on the tabletop. Fluff-wise, they're the Ecclesiarchy's personal army, just like the ISTs are the Inquisitions personal army and the PDF are any given Governor's personal army and. . .

On the tabletop, they're Space Marines light, with extra flamer. They don't have anything particularly special going for them, and I personally feel they'd do better as part of a larger Codex: Either Servants of the Emperor, or Ecclesiarchy, or SOMETHING. SoB alone just don't quite cut it. Of course, others can certainly disagree.

A bit OT but where did you get the "20,000" stormtroopers from? That's less than one per imperial world...that's tiny.

Joey wrote:
A bit OT but where did you get the "20,000" stormtroopers from? That's less than one per imperial world...that's tiny.

There's only a single regiment, officially, of Imperial Stormtroopers; the Cadian Kasrkin, various grenadier regiments, none of those guys are Officially Stormtroopers (TM). So there's lots of storm troopers around, but very, very few Stormtroopers. Don't think about that, it'll just hurt your brain. Certainly did mine.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Codex Grey Knights.
Your argument is invalid.
Seriously GW, wtf? C: Daemonhunters made more sense considering the use of GK.

I think that C:GK should get erased, or at least put into one slightly larger, C: Inquisition. With the direction that GW has taken with 40k, the army HQ is basically the most important choice in the entire thing, and it makes sense to have an Inquisitorial book that would allow, depending on options, a GK force, or a SoB force.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
A bit OT but where did you get the "20,000" stormtroopers from? That's less than one per imperial world...that's tiny.

There's only a single regiment, officially, of Imperial Stormtroopers; the Cadian Kasrkin, various grenadier regiments, none of those guys are Officially Stormtroopers (TM). So there's lots of storm troopers around, but very, very few Stormtroopers. Don't think about that, it'll just hurt your brain. Certainly did mine.

So...what are stormtroopers then?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So...what are stormtroopers then?

Grenadiers. Or Kasrkin. Or some other regiment's elite shock troops. Or, possibly, Imperial Stormtroopers. . . but not likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Codex Grey Knights.
Your argument is invalid.
Seriously GW, wtf? C: Daemonhunters made more sense considering the use of GK.

Well, I make exactly the SAME argument about Grey Knights, so make of that what you will.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So...what are stormtroopers then?

Grenadiers. Or Kasrkin. Or some other regiment's elite shock troops. Or, possibly, Imperial Stormtroopers. . . but not likely.

But you just said Kasrkin and grenadiers weren't stormtroopers
I am so confused
Sorry I meant Official Stormtroopers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Codex Grey Knights.
Your argument is invalid.
Seriously GW, wtf? C: Daemonhunters made more sense considering the use of GK.

Well, I make exactly the SAME argument about Grey Knights, so make of that what you will.

Lol, fair enough

BeRzErKeR wrote:By comparison, there are ~500 Space Marines for every single Imperial Stormtrooper. A tiny fraction of the numbers the IG muster? Yes. But enough of them that you can make a reasonable argument for some of them being present in any given large warzone. With the Sisters of Battle, that's a bit sketchier.

Not really, given that their fluff points the Major Orders out to be highly mobile, which is exactly why they can pop up all over the place. They spend less time in their Head Convents than Space Marines do in their Fortress Monastery - and a Major Order of the SoB is several thousand stronger than most Marine Chapters. Do you see anyone proposing to can the Marines because it doesn't make sense that your one Chapter shows up for all the fights?

You can even make this case for the majority of Imperial Guard regiments, for when you break it down into the various sub-formations, then everybody suddenly becomes too small to be "present in any given larger warzone".

BeRzErKeR wrote:Fluff-wise, they're the Ecclesiarchy's personal army, just like the ISTs are the Inquisitions personal army and the PDF are any given Governor's personal army and. . .

... and the Marines are the Emperor's personal army and the Imperial Guard are the Munitorum's personal army ... point being? Symbolism is important, especially when it also affects the visual style of an army. Some people like the idea of a bunch of ordinary people thrust into total war and getting through with balls of steel, or the grimdark hopelessness of endless wave assaults where a human life is worth nothing, so they play IG. Other people like the superhuman masculinity and power focused within a Space Marine, so they play them. The Sisters are there for those who are fond of the religious nutjob side of Imperial fluff, and sort of share the "paladin" angle with the SM with the difference that they're female and still only human.
I'm convinced that the visual style of their models brings something to the table not represented by any other army.

BeRzErKeR wrote:They don't have anything particularly special going for them

Yeah, Acts of Faith totally don't count - before we're even delving into various unique units or the hybrid role between SM and IG.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. For what it's worth, it isn't surprising that we all have our own opinions on what is and what isn't interesting.

Joey wrote:A bit OT but where did you get the "20,000" stormtroopers from? That's less than one per imperial world...that's tiny.

The 20k number is from the 2E Guard Codex, the 5E one reiterates that there is only a single regiment. It has to do with the way how they are organized and dispatched, not permanently attached to any IG regiment but based centrally and sent in platoon-to-company-strength to crisis zones on an as-needed basis.

As mentioned, Grenadiers and Kasrkin fulfill a nigh-similar function in battle, but they don't share the "real" Storm Troopers' organization, nor their Schola Progenium origin, nor vehicles. Though this is only relevant in the fluff, which is why you can represent them all with a single unit entry.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
A bit OT but where did you get the "20,000" stormtroopers from? That's less than one per imperial world...that's tiny.

There's only a single regiment, officially, of Imperial Stormtroopers; the Cadian Kasrkin, various grenadier regiments, none of those guys are Officially Stormtroopers (TM). So there's lots of storm troopers around, but very, very few Stormtroopers. Don't think about that, it'll just hurt your brain. Certainly did mine.

Kind of like how there's no actual margerine around any more, it's all oil-based spreads.
People think it's margerine because the name has carried down, but technically they're not.
There you have it, stormtroopers are like margerine.

Joey wrote:
Kind of like how there's no actual margerine around any more, it's all oil-based spreads.
People think it's margerine because the name has carried down, but technically they're not.
There you have it, stormtroopers are like margerine.

But with one major difference; Stormtroopers aren't delicious.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
Kind of like how there's no actual margerine around any more, it's all oil-based spreads.
People think it's margerine because the name has carried down, but technically they're not.
There you have it, stormtroopers are like margerine.

But with one major difference; Stormtroopers aren't delicious.

They are to a carnifex

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
Kind of like how there's no actual margerine around any more, it's all oil-based spreads.
People think it's margerine because the name has carried down, but technically they're not.
There you have it, stormtroopers are like margerine.

But with one major difference; Stormtroopers aren't delicious.

They are to a carnifex

And carnifexes are delicious with margerine.
The circle is complete.

Joey wrote:
And carnifexes are delicious with Pasteurized Processed All-Natural Stormtrooper Spread (TM)
The circle is complete.

Fixed it for you.

And that is how the IoM recycle their losses.