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BT already fulfill the role of nut-job fanatics. They're more paladin-like than Sisters, and they're more crazy. At most Sisters should only really get a few slots in an Inquisitorial codex, along with Grey Knights.

No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

KingDeath wrote:No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

I don't think that too many people are suggesting the absolute elimination of certain armies; Rather, and I am included in this, we are suggesting that the book gets rolled into another one.. for fluff and mechanical reasons. In no way have my previous suggestions invalidated (or would invalidate) an existing army. What would happen, is basically the armies would still be the same, only using a different book, often times resulting in more options for said player.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

KingDeath wrote:No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

I don't think that too many people are suggesting the absolute elimination of certain armies; Rather, and I am included in this, we are suggesting that the book gets rolled into another one.. for fluff and mechanical reasons. In no way have my previous suggestions invalidated (or would invalidate) an existing army. What would happen, is basically the armies would still be the same, only using a different book, often times resulting in more options for said player.

This.

Really, it would be so much simpler. The way we have now is annoying and over complex like the game mechanics of 2nd ed.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

KingDeath wrote:No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

I don't think that too many people are suggesting the absolute elimination of certain armies; Rather, and I am included in this, we are suggesting that the book gets rolled into another one.. for fluff and mechanical reasons. In no way have my previous suggestions invalidated (or would invalidate) an existing army. What would happen, is basically the armies would still be the same, only using a different book, often times resulting in more options for said player.

Indeed, i didn't say the removal of armies I said the removal of codexes.
Here's the blood angels codex in one line of the SM codex:
Blood Angels-take assault marines as troops, predators, rhinos and razorbacks are "fast".
And a couple of the higher-profile charectors makes it a good'un.

I dunno... Seems like one codex for the entire race, or one for every variation. You can't make your own rules for your army even though according to their fluff they vary greatly, and I don't think GW has the time/resources to make each variation a codex. I get that it's a business, but its also a game, so the way it is people who play whatever the focus of the month is just have to wait around.

Joey wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

KingDeath wrote:No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

I don't think that too many people are suggesting the absolute elimination of certain armies; Rather, and I am included in this, we are suggesting that the book gets rolled into another one.. for fluff and mechanical reasons. In no way have my previous suggestions invalidated (or would invalidate) an existing army. What would happen, is basically the armies would still be the same, only using a different book, often times resulting in more options for said player.

Indeed, i didn't say the removal of armies I said the removal of codexes.
Here's the blood angels codex in one line of the SM codex:
Blood Angels-take assault marines as troops, predators, rhinos and razorbacks are "fast".
And a couple of the higher-profile charectors makes it a good'un.

The 3rd edition rulebook did this for each army list. The special chapters had this type of treatment for Marines and specific Eldar craftworlds did also.

Joey wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

KingDeath wrote:No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

I don't think that too many people are suggesting the absolute elimination of certain armies; Rather, and I am included in this, we are suggesting that the book gets rolled into another one.. for fluff and mechanical reasons. In no way have my previous suggestions invalidated (or would invalidate) an existing army. What would happen, is basically the armies would still be the same, only using a different book, often times resulting in more options for said player.

Indeed, i didn't say the removal of armies I said the removal of codexes.
Here's the blood angels codex in one line of the SM codex:
Blood Angels-take assault marines as troops, predators, rhinos and razorbacks are "fast".
And a couple of the higher-profile charectors makes it a good'un.

Other than tactics and their sanguinary/death guard, they really are pretty codex compliant, so them having those assault marines as troops represents their preference for that kind of warfare but they wouldn't necessarily have any more assault marines than other chapters, the same way that IF might prefer using devastators but have no reason to possess any more than anyone else. The jump packs everywhere approach really only works for 1st company and the assault reserve company.

From a fluff perspective anyways

The Inquisition and their Ordos Millitant (Gk, SoB etc) belong behind the scenes in the darker areas of fluff where most won't dare to go... Not at the forefront of every fething battle.

If it was GW they would probually remove all races but the Space Marines. And maybe Imperial Guard and Orks

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Inquisition and their Ordos Millitant (Gk, SoB etc) belong behind the scenes in the darker areas of fluff where most won't dare to go... Not at the forefront of every fething battle.

Which is why they should be a 0-1 elite choice in a inquisitorial codex. Or something like that.

Really though, I would like to see a codex that combines all the Ordos. Deathwatch included.
If you select a Ordo Hereticus inquisitor, you get SoB (limited number of squads)
Same with Ordo Xenos and Malleus, but with Deathwatch and GK instead respectively (obviously)
Always Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

None, I love diversity and lots of armies. I hate how there are no Tau I can crush in DoW 2, IT MAKES ME ANGRIER THAN BROTHER COA IN A IMPERIUM VS ANYTHING THREAD.

Codex: Space Marines (Vanilla/BA/DA/BT/SW)
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Inquisition (Includes SoB/GK/Deathwatch)
Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Includes Daemon options)
Codex: Chaos Renegades (Includes Daemon Options)
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Orks
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Tau Empire

11 vs 16 army books

why not make dark eldar and eldar have the same book? I mean theyre both elves? Isnt that the sm or guard arguement for one? Hell crush the renegades in the IG I mean same vehicles.. just take a mark. Cram csm in marines.. Condensing sm or any army is silly because gw just wants to make money and theyre not gonna condense the cash cow armies like ba sw etc for anyone. lol

Draigo wrote:why not make dark eldar and eldar have the same book? I mean theyre both elves? Isnt that the sm or guard arguement for one?

No.

They are the same species, but are COMPLETELY different.

Banzaimash wrote:BT already fulfill the role of nut-job fanatics. They're more paladin-like than Sisters, and they're more crazy.

Given that the SoB fulfilled this role first, I guess this means BT will have to go.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Inquisition and their Ordos Millitant (Gk, SoB etc) belong behind the scenes in the darker areas of fluff where most won't dare to go... Not at the forefront of every fething battle.

SoB =/= Inquisition.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:They are the same species, but are COMPLETELY different.

What, you mean like GK and SoB?

In the old Witch Hunter's 'dex, it explicitly stated the SoB were the Ordo Hereticus' Ordo Millitant. They may function as a stand-alone force, but so do the other Ordos Millitants...

DeadlySquirrel wrote:In the old Witch Hunter's 'dex, it explicitly stated the SoB were the Ordo Hereticus' Ordo Millitant. They may function as a stand-alone force, but so do the other Ordos Millitants...

Except deathwatch that is.


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Alexzandvar wrote:None, I love diversity and lots of armies. I hate how there are no Tau I can crush in DoW 2, IT MAKES ME ANGRIER THAN BROTHER COA IN A IMPERIUM VS ANYTHING THREAD.

350 posts and he already understands how dakka works.

I'm so proud.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:In the old Witch Hunter's 'dex, it explicitly stated the SoB were the Ordo Hereticus' Ordo Millitant. They may function as a stand-alone force, but so do the other Ordos Millitants...

SO then why can you condense them and not the 2 eldar?

Differences people put out among marines is similar vehicles.. Dont all space elves fly in hover tanks/speeders and use mostly lance weapons? Different between banshee and wyches is just wargear.. kinda like a strike gk and a smurf.

Draigo wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:In the old Witch Hunter's 'dex, it explicitly stated the SoB were the Ordo Hereticus' Ordo Millitant. They may function as a stand-alone force, but so do the other Ordos Millitants...

SO then why can you condense them and not the 2 eldar?

Differences people put out among marines is similar vehicles.. Dont all space elves fly in hover tanks/speeders and use mostly lance weapons? Different between banshee and wyches is just wargear.. kinda like a strike gk and a smurf.

Except they use different weapons, different vehicles, different tactics, different everything. Only back ground is the same.

All marines use bolters and tac squads, GK use bolters and PA, so do sisters etc. etc.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:In the old Witch Hunter's 'dex, it explicitly stated the SoB were the Ordo Hereticus' Ordo Millitant. They may function as a stand-alone force, but so do the other Ordos Millitants...

Even assuming that is still the case in the current version of the fluff, that doesn't say a lot. An Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor may just as well take command of an Imperial Guard regiment or a Marine Chapter for the duration of his mission - all the Convocation of Nephilim does is create a diplomatic link between both organizations. It's an alliance, and the designers even flat-out stated so in the design notes.

And no, the other Chambers Militant do indeed function differently, as the fluff in the "Inquisitor" RPG makes them out to be the Inquisition's own fighting formations. Something that cannot be applied to the Sisters of Battle, as they still belong to the Church.

"Bearing in mind the sinister character and role of the Ordo Hereticus, the Sisters of Battle slotted right in as their Chamber Militant, though we were keen to maintain their identity as separate from the Inquisition."
- Andy Hoare on the 3E Witch Hunters Codex design notes as published in WD #292

im2randomghgh wrote:All marines use bolters and tac squads, GK use bolters and PA, so do sisters etc. etc.

All Marines are also quite capable of surviving close combat - do you honestly believe this applies to SoB?
Just because the mainstay infantry troop uses a similar ranged weapon does not render two armies "identical".

Belonging to the Church or not, they are the Chamber Millitant (I have been getting it wrong for years ) of the Witch Hunters.

The Deathwatch belong to the Space Marines, but they are a Chamber Millitant...


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SoB are just just a rule #63 of Space Marines. They wear power armour and have Bolters...

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Belonging to the Church or not, they are the Chamber Millitant (I have been getting it wrong for years ) of the Witch Hunters.

And apparently this is of no concern whatsoever for their role in the Imperium, given that their latest Codex has cut all ties. You cannot even legally field an Inquisitor with an SoB army at a tournament right now.*

(*: much to the detriment of certain people who had mixed armies - I maintain that the Inquisition should simply get a minidex that can work as an addon for any Imperial force)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:In the old Witch Hunter's 'dex, it explicitly stated the SoB were the Ordo Hereticus' Ordo Millitant. They may function as a stand-alone force, but so do the other Ordos Millitants...

SO then why can you condense them and not the 2 eldar?

Differences people put out among marines is similar vehicles.. Dont all space elves fly in hover tanks/speeders and use mostly lance weapons? Different between banshee and wyches is just wargear.. kinda like a strike gk and a smurf.

Except they use different weapons, different vehicles, different tactics, different everything. Only back ground is the same.

All marines use bolters and tac squads, GK use bolters and PA, so do sisters etc. etc.

different tactics? like fly around the board and shoot lance weapons? Harlequins already made the move over you know cause theyre all so different. They could easily be made into the same book just like any marine faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:In the old Witch Hunter's 'dex, it explicitly stated the SoB were the Ordo Hereticus' Ordo Millitant. They may function as a stand-alone force, but so do the other Ordos Millitants...

SO then why can you condense them and not the 2 eldar?

Differences people put out among marines is similar vehicles.. Dont all space elves fly in hover tanks/speeders and use mostly lance weapons? Different between banshee and wyches is just wargear.. kinda like a strike gk and a smurf.

Except they use different weapons, different vehicles, different tactics, different everything. Only back ground is the same.

All marines use bolters and tac squads, GK use bolters and PA, so do sisters etc. etc.

different tactics? like fly around the board and shoot lance weapons? Harlequins already made the move over you know cause theyre all so different. They could easily be made into the same book just like any marine faction. Vipors and Venoms look awful similar along with scourges and swooping hawks.

Joey wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

KingDeath wrote:No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

I don't think that too many people are suggesting the absolute elimination of certain armies; Rather, and I am included in this, we are suggesting that the book gets rolled into another one.. for fluff and mechanical reasons. In no way have my previous suggestions invalidated (or would invalidate) an existing army. What would happen, is basically the armies would still be the same, only using a different book, often times resulting in more options for said player.

Indeed, i didn't say the removal of armies I said the removal of codexes.
Here's the blood angels codex in one line of the SM codex:
Blood Angels-take assault marines as troops, predators, rhinos and razorbacks are "fast".
And a couple of the higher-profile charectors makes it a good'un.

What about Baal Predators, Death Company, Furiso Dreadnoughts, and the Storm Raven?

except eldar and dark eldar are legitimately different, doubly so with coven forces.

I can see where people are coming from though, when X codexes only difference is x unit is now a different foc selection, X has this rule, and all of 1 new unit + a couple of special characters.

If an entire codexes rules is able to be done by adding 2-3 lines to another book, you should be able to see why people think it's samey.

I think a few major changes could make the majority of players happy with the level of representation of their specific army.

1) All Marines should be in one codex. I'm a space wolf player myself, and I can honestly say that I wouldn't mind being slumped into a giant loyal marines codex. Bring back the traits system from the older dex (man I loved that thing...) so that players can still get the unique feel of most of the armies. Allow special characters to unlock really unique options, with more wargear options for termies and veterans. Honestly, I'd be losing Long Fangs (dirty unit) and thunderwolves (Which are pretty stupid). No big loss. GW just has different rulebooks so they can charge you two times to play marines (consider how different wolves look from other marines in terms of models...Blood Angels and Ultramarines are similar throughout 90% of their models that aren't IC's)

2) Allow ALL army books to have some sort of trait system. Anyone remember third edition Chaos, where different legions allowed access to different options? Or the Craftworld eldar book, which allowed you to select from Biel-Tan, Iyanden, or Saim-hann (the wild host was so fluffy...you just can't do it in this edition without a seer council). I wouldn't even mind if this was a supplement for each army...say 30 bucks a pop. If you want to play vanilla, awesome, if not, then buy the extra book for traits. It seems to me the biggest peeve of eldar and chaos players are the fact that they once had access to legions and craftworlds...and now don't. Granted you can still do SOME of these, but Alpha Legion and Saim-Hann are hard to do...

3) Inquistion book. Something combining DeathWatch kill teams, GK, SoB, The big I, and storm troopers into one book. Have an HQ from each one of the listed armies that allows the player to unlock that unit as troops. This would allow people to field their original armies, and yet still be able to mix and match within the church. I think it'd add a lot of variety to armies that are currently lacking it. Let's face it, GK have 4 of the same models with slight variations, and a sweet dreadnought. Sisters have a great tank, and 4 models that are the same (although a few with jet packs...), deathwatch could be marines with additional wargear/options with veteran stats.

I don't think they'd even see a major decline in sales if they offered these extra armies as a different book to go with the codex one. To play space wolves I'd be forced to buy 2 books, and I could still use the majority of my list. Templars, DA, and Angels wouldn't even have that problem...

First off there shouldn't be an Inquisition book. An inquisitor should be an HQ choice in a couple different loyalist books. Grey knights are just "special" space marines. Throw them in as a "cult unit" like noise marines are for chaos.

Blood angels I agree as well should be thrown into the vanilla marine dex.

Demons should be put back in the chaos book.

Just remove tau from the game. No one likes them.

Why do people even want a whole Inquisition book? That's what I don't get.

Deathwatch Kill Teams cannot be fielded in normal games, and both GK as well as SoB are, by now, unique enough to warrant their own Codex each (distinctive focus, distinctive fluff, distinctive visuals, all-distinctive units and rules). Yes, on the surface GK have some overlap with SM, but I still just see a situation much like Eldar and Dark Eldar, and personally I wouldn't wedge either of these four armies into two books. I am convinced that Demons need to get back with the CSM tho.

All you really need to cut down on are the sub-factions of the various armies.

Inquisitors and ISTs should be a small expansion to tack onto any existing Imperial force. This is how the Inquisition operates in the fluff, and this is how it would work wonderfully on the TT as well.

While I disagree with inq being HQ, I have to say I forgot about Deamons being rolled back into the chaos dex. A fantastic idea!

I don't think any MODEL should be phased out. If I paid 40-50 for something, it BETTER stay viable.