Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Draigo wrote:why not make dark eldar and eldar have the same book? I mean theyre both elves? Isnt that the sm or guard arguement for one? Hell crush the renegades in the IG I mean same vehicles.. just take a mark. Cram csm in marines.. Condensing sm or any army is silly because gw just wants to make money and theyre not gonna condense the cash cow armies like ba sw etc for anyone. lol

DE and Eldar are fundalmentally different in gameplay, models, units, and background. The same can not be said for Blood Angels vs Black Templars. There are only slight variations there.

As stated before fast skimmers/tanks that use lances is not a different style. No a wyche and a banshee that similar outside of wargear. No different then a tac marine and a strike squad. Outside of the psykers there is very little difference. Viper to venoms also not that different. Background is the same till slaanesh which again is not that unique. Harelquins are also in both books. I can come up with as many reasons for one book as you can 2 just like gk or sw to smurfs.

Problem i notice with EVERYBODY who plays a marine variant is they have their mech/heavy weapons that just sits back (be it dreadnoughts with autocannons, razorbacks with lascannons, predators with auto cannons and lascannons, longfangs, etc.) and unload while the rest of their troops walk up slowly and mulch on everything the mech opened.

From what i've seen and encoutered, ALL marine players just have half their army sit there and shoot. It's annoying. I'd rather face parking lot guard and know the challenge is *GETTING* there. Whereas with marines, you'll get intercepted by their regular marines , terminators, jump infantry, etc if you try and close the gap from yourself to their gun lines.

I find Xenos armies so appealing because they ALL are so different from one another and require a lot more finesse. I even find imperial guard more interesitng than marines. I have GK's and i have my dreadnoughts who just sit back and shoot while i have interceptors/purifiers make their way up the field

Cryage wrote:Problem i notice with EVERYBODY who plays a marine variant is they have their mech/heavy weapons that just sits back (be it dreadnoughts with autocannons, razorbacks with lascannons, predators with auto cannons and lascannons, longfangs, etc.) and unload while the rest of their troops walk up slowly and mulch on everything the mech opened.

From what i've seen and encoutered, ALL marine players just have half their army sit there and shoot. It's annoying. I'd rather face parking lot guard and know the challenge is *GETTING* there. Whereas with marines, you'll get intercepted by their regular marines , terminators, jump infantry, etc if you try and close the gap from yourself to their gun lines.

I find Xenos armies so appealing because they ALL are so different from one another and require a lot more finesse. I even find imperial guard more interesitng than marines. I have GK's and i have my dreadnoughts who just sit back and shoot while i have interceptors/purifiers make their way up the field

And if CC is buffed people whine that shooty armies can't compete. Let's face it, if CC was better at handling vehicles (or, indeed, if vehicles were worse) marines wouldn't play like that.

I think the biggest failing of the current marine Codex is that vehicles have the same base-cost in all the new Codices. If they had differing costs, to emphasise that some Chapters don't have access to or don't use as many transports as other Chwpters. That way all the Razorspam would be gathered in one Codex, allowing the other Chapters to play as differently as they should.

Lynata wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:BT already fulfill the role of nut-job fanatics. They're more paladin-like than Sisters, and they're more crazy.

Given that the SoB fulfilled this role first, I guess this means BT will have to go.

Not really, because although the SoB may have come first, it doesn't mean that the BT should go, considering that they fulfill the fanatic role much better. Also, consider the impact the SoB have on the galaxy compared to the BT. The SoB aren't nearly big or important enough to warrant their own codex.

SoB have been around since about RT, so why should they go for a marine army that can get away with just priming the entire force? Not even an original legion at that, but a successor. Where's the Iron Hands, the Raven Guard? The hands have a somewhat different organisation yet we get the Blood Angels instead.

With work the marines can get condensed down into a big fancy codex just for them and still work out the same as having several. The only reason why they probably aren't is that they can be spread out more this way. No army has to go, the amount of codices can be reduced without reducing the available forces and model lines.

Rabtorian wrote:Why not release one codex and an expantion for each race?
Codex: Space Marines; Chapters of the Space Marines.
Codex: Imperial Guard; Regiments of the Imperial Guard.
Codex: Dark Eldar; Kabals of the Dark Eldar.
Codex: Eldar; Craftworlds of the Eldar.
Codex: Chaos; Daemons of Chaos; Servants of Chaos.
Codex: Necrons; Dynasties of the Necrons.
Codex: Tyrannids; Hive Fleets of the Tyrannids.
Codex: Tau; Colonies of the Tau.
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus; Forge Worlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Codex: Ordos Imperialis; Forces of the Inquisition; Orders of the Sisters of Battle; Agents of the Imperium.
Codex: Orks; Klans of the Orks.
I don't see how anybody could be unhappy with the list above, and using a system of expansions could also mean that should GW wish, they could release more content by releasing more expansions.

I agree with this

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
SoB are just just a rule #63 of Space Marines. They wear power armour and have Bolters...

Nerd Rage in 3....2.....1.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:Why do people even want a whole Inquisition book? That's what I don't get.

To simplify things. To have all 3 Inquisitorial army's ( even if SoB are part of Imperial Church they often serve as military force of Ordo Hereticus, so they are counted as one ) in one book then to have three separate books all with different version and fluff that is varying over the years. In one book they would all be the same edition and have the same non-questionable fluff.

None, really.

If I based my decision on what would affect me personally, well, I have a variety of armies, because what I like changes constantly. People mentioned the number of Chapter-specific Space Marine Codices, but I really only play the vanilla ones. Hell, I only have the vanilla dex, not counting my older, possibly 3e - unsure about that really, as I got it years and years ago when I was still fairly clueless - Dark Angels Codex, so keeping or axing the others doesn't affect me. So the stuff I have models for, I'd like to keep. The stuff I don't have models for, I don't care about, so it can stay. So none get axed.

If I considered what would affect other people as well as myself, I wouldn't remove any army, because everyone has their favorite, and I sure as hell wouldn't like it if the decision were someone else's and one of my armies got axed. So I wouldn't remove anyone else's army either.

Edit: I wouldn't even roll the Marines together. Cause I sure as heck wouldn't enjoy having to share a codex with the Grey Knights - I'm still a little upset about that one truly ridiculous story, by the way. How the heck do you need THAT much blood for that? - and having to stare at their shiny armored models in the model gallery section, like a lot of people here seem to want.

IcedAnimals wrote:
Just remove Tau from the game. No one likes them.

I love you

Lynata wrote:
Inquisitors and ISTs should be a small expansion to tack onto any existing Imperial force. This is how the Inquisition operates in the fluff, and this is how it would work wonderfully on the TT as well.

And also this, Grey Knights were more then good as Daemonhunters. I don't like the idea of them going alone and wreaking stuff across the stars. I love the idea of Ordo Malleus Inquisitor investigating Daemon invasion with his Stormtroopers and then call the Grey Knights from orbit to assist him.

So drop Grey Knights and Blood Angels, two fully fleshed out and distinctive armies, but keep Dark Angels, who are two Special Characters away from being Codex: Space Marines? No thanks. There aren't too many armies, but there are too many of these "I hate this army and it should be removed from the game" threads on the internet.

Banzaimash wrote:Not really, because although the SoB may have come first, it doesn't mean that the BT should go, considering that they fulfill the fanatic role much better.

I beg to differ. First off, religion makes a much more obvious catalyst for fanaticism. For what it's worth, it is rather weird and unfitting to have a Marine Chapter called "Templars" and bearing the symbolism of the christian Knights Hospitaller in the first place. To me, this is just one of many cases where the secular Marines ursurped a bit of the Sisters' style. Alas, by now it is far too late to do anything about it, so I guess we have to live with it. Still, units such as the Repentia and their Mistress, the Arco-Flagellants, the Penitent Engine or Ecclesiarchy Preachers and waves of fanatic Frateris Militia paint an obvious image on the tabletop, and this is even before you start delving into their fluff (history, organization, purpose, internal rules and rituals).

Banzaimash wrote:Also, consider the impact the SoB have on the galaxy compared to the BT. The SoB aren't nearly big or important enough to warrant their own codex.

Whilst not as big or important as the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, the Orders Militant as a whole are certainly bigger and consequently more important than any single Space Marine Chapter.

Brother Coa wrote:To simplify things. To have all 3 Inquisitorial army's ( even if SoB are part of Imperial Church they often serve as military force of Ordo Hereticus, so they are counted as one ) in one book [...]

Yeah, but then you'd have to throw in SM and IG there as well. And suddenly we're back to the Codex Imperialis.

SoB were never meant to be thought of as an "Inquisition army", and the tenacity with which some people think of them as one only shows that it was high time they were separated again.

Brother Coa wrote:In one book they would all be the same edition and have the same non-questionable fluff.

Tbh, I'm not sure what that would change - you'd still end up with Draigo etc.

IcedAnimals wrote:Just remove tau from the game. No one likes them.

Apart from all the people who play tau.

Oh and there's only over 7000 members on Advanced Tau Tactica alone, one assumes the vast majority of them play tau. (Plus numerous other Tau Specific forums, and of course, all the people on here who play em)

The only thing you can reasonably say is that YOU don't like Tau. Loads of people do.

n0t_u wrote:SoB have been around since about RT, so why should they go for a marine army that can get away with just priming the entire force? Not even an original legion at that, but a successor. Where's the Iron Hands, the Raven Guard? The hands have a somewhat different organisation yet we get the Blood Angels instead.

With work the marines can get condensed down into a big fancy codex just for them and still work out the same as having several. The only reason why they probably aren't is that they can be spread out more this way. No army has to go, the amount of codices can be reduced without reducing the available forces and model lines.

Just because Sisters have been around since RT, doesn't mean that they should get a whole codex to themselves. They don't play nearly as large a part in the defence of the IoM as the BT. Also, although the BT are successors, they are a massive force with a largely different structure to the first founding codex chapters, such as Salamanders, and they arguably outshine their IF ancestors.To argue that BT aren't as worthy as SoB just because they can be primed and left (which isn't exactly true, as at least the shoulder pads have to be painted white) is without foundation, considering DA, DE, Necrons, Tau, BA, GK, Daemons and CSM, as well as other armies (such as SoB) can also classify as painted with just a one-colour basecoat. As to which SM chapters should get their own codex, almost all could, and I agree that the Iron Hands have a structure, background and fighting style substantially different from Codex doctrine to justify their own codex (which would be awesome), whereas the BA don't really deviate massively from the codex, as their only defining features are assault marines as troops, fast Preds, DC, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests and their own named characters (a similar situation applies to DA too), which could all find their place in a SM codex. No one's codex needs to be destroyed, just several codices need to be consolidated (eg. Codex: Inquisition, which would include the three Ordos, their goons, SoB as mainstay troops alongside stormtroopers, and a few elites options withe GK in them). IMHO, the SoB should still have a more weight than GK, who are a relatively small and highly specialised force, and should be represented as such. Many of their units are quite unnecessary or just plain foolish, such a Purifiers (purest of the purest pure?) and Strike Squads (these were only made to give GK jump infantry like the other armies, jump infantry that wouldn't be necessary in the Codex:Inquisition above, as Seraphim would do the job).

Eliminate an army? Why? They all have their place.

Combine codexes? Maybe. I think this could work for
Marines if they added locking abilities to certain HQs. For example if you take khan then at least half the army must be on bikes. However GW would have to scale back the fluff in order to keep printing costs down, and I like fluff. So that's really a non starter.

Lynata wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:Also, consider the impact the SoB have on the galaxy compared to the BT. The SoB aren't nearly big or important enough to warrant their own codex.

Whilst not as big or important as the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, the Orders Militant as a whole are certainly bigger and consequently more important than any single Space Marine Chapter.

The Ultramarines, with their multiple systems, and hundreds of Guard regiments and influence over an entire Segmentum, would like a word with you, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Ultramarines, with their multiple systems, and hundreds of Guard regiments and influence over an entire Segmentum, would like a word with you, lol.

Phht, if you want it that way, I can add the countless Frateris Militia or the Guard regiments and Navy fleets under influence of some Cardinal.

Though the Ultras' role is probably worthy of being mentioned as an exception - not because I consider them a necessary military resource, but because of their administration of the Ultramar realm, which in itself is a very valuable asset indeed.

As a side question: The worlds of Ultramar are not the entire Segmentum, are they? I mean, Valhalla and Catachan are located there as well, and certainly both regiments are not subject to the Ultramarines.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

Joey wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

KingDeath wrote:No army should be removed. Every single represented army has lots of people who put lots of effort into their prefered faction. To take that away just because GW is too damn incompetent to keep their rulebooks up to date and balanced would be wrong imo.

I don't think that too many people are suggesting the absolute elimination of certain armies; Rather, and I am included in this, we are suggesting that the book gets rolled into another one.. for fluff and mechanical reasons. In no way have my previous suggestions invalidated (or would invalidate) an existing army. What would happen, is basically the armies would still be the same, only using a different book, often times resulting in more options for said player.

Indeed, i didn't say the removal of armies I said the removal of codexes.
Here's the blood angels codex in one line of the SM codex:
Blood Angels-take assault marines as troops, predators, rhinos and razorbacks are "fast".
And a couple of the higher-profile charectors makes it a good'un.

What about Baal Predators, Death Company, Furiso Dreadnoughts, and the Storm Raven?

Storm Raven should be available for all SM, and other chapters have their own unique vehicle variants too, but don't have codices.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Storm Raven should be available for all SM, and other chapters have their own unique vehicle variants too, but don't have codices.

Storm Raven should NOT be available for ANYONE.. SM have the Thunderhawk as their transport/fighter aircraft, not some Land Raider with jet packs and stubby wings.

Nthing the Codex: Chapter Astartes option.

You can go vanilla, take a 'themed' chaplain/captain/librarian/techmarine to add army wide rules (unlocking red thirst, death company, etc). Mesh the current vehicle lines into one cohesive list, its not like a chapter wouldn't use something if they could get their hands on it and with thousands of years of history I think the chances of that are rather high. "Approval by the mechanicum" blah blah blah are just excuses, individual techmarines aren't above this.

Black Templars and Space Wolves are a bit too unique to jive with a codex astartes list, so they'd have to have their own books. Ditto on Chaos obviously.

Also Nthing codex: Forces of the inquisition. Though, given the absurd and Wardian new GK units, I don't think that can happen anymore.

Ovion wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:Just remove tau from the game. No one likes them.

Apart from all the people who play tau.

Oh and there's only over 7000 members on Advanced Tau Tactica alone, one assumes the vast majority of them play tau. (Plus numerous other Tau Specific forums, and of course, all the people on here who play em)

The only thing you can reasonably say is that YOU don't like Tau. Loads of people do.

*sound of hand going over head* fwooosh.

At least brother coa got it.

While it pains me to say this, DA should really just be rolled into C:SM and given special characters to unlock their chapter traits.

King Crow wrote:

Rabtorian wrote:Why not release one codex and an expantion for each race?
Codex: Space Marines; Chapters of the Space Marines.
Codex: Imperial Guard; Regiments of the Imperial Guard.
Codex: Dark Eldar; Kabals of the Dark Eldar.
Codex: Eldar; Craftworlds of the Eldar.
Codex: Chaos; Daemons of Chaos; Servants of Chaos.
Codex: Necrons; Dynasties of the Necrons.
Codex: Tyrannids; Hive Fleets of the Tyrannids.
Codex: Tau; Colonies of the Tau.
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus; Forge Worlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Codex: Ordos Imperialis; Forces of the Inquisition; Orders of the Sisters of Battle; Agents of the Imperium.
Codex: Orks; Klans of the Orks.
I don't see how anybody could be unhappy with the list above, and using a system of expansions could also mean that should GW wish, they could release more content by releasing more expansions.

I agree with this

Not only do I also agree with this, I think it could be taken further. Make the "Codex" bit a free, downloadable PDF of the basic rules for the army, then have the other portion as a nice, fluffy full colour hardback book. The book could also give you special characters and legion/cult/clan specific tactics etc.

This would allow them to tweak and update the core rules for each army, maintaining game balance, whilst giving them an opportunity to really develop the background for different factions.

Joey wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
SOB are dumb, they shouldn't have their own codex at all.
There should only be two Imperium codex, IG and SM.

What a very limited perspective. The IoM is one of the two largest factions in the setting, and certainly the least homogeneous; why on earth should they be limited to only two codexes? SM, IG, Mechanicus, and Servants of the Emperor (Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, and AdMech) could work well. I tend to agree that the Sisters of Battle are kind of a small faction to get a codex entirely to themselves, but there's absolutely no reason to cut down the Imperium that far.

Look outside of the fluff.
The IG are trillions(googleplexes?) of men across countles etc etc.
The SM are badass space knights.
How could you explain Mechanicus and "servants of the emperor" in a few words to someone who wasn't familiar with 40k canon?
Hell I'm more familiar with most but I'd still have no idea what a Mechanicus codex would actually entail...mainly since they don't actually do any fighting IIRC. So giving them their own codex would be a little odd.
An Inquisitor book would work though. GK really don't need their own codex.

Simples

Sisters of Battle = Nuns with gunz

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Simples

Sisters of Battle = Nuns with gunz

There is no need whatsoever for SOB in 40k.
Women should be making sandwiches for the soldiers' return, not fighting.

Joey wrote:
There is no need whatsoever for SOB in 40k.
Women should be making sandwiches for the soldiers' return, not fighting.

We can't handle trolling of this magnitude!

The urge to post that image gives me an opportunity to hand in my own list, though:

Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Sisters of Battle (=Ecclesiarchy in general)

Codex: Apocalypse (includes Mechanicus and Dark Mechanicus section)
Codex: Chaos Space Marines (=Chaos in general, including demons)

WD Minidex: Inquisition (add-on for all Imperial forces, includes Inquisitors of all Ordos, retinues, ISTs and "Kill Team" rules for DW, GK, ISTs, SoB)

Codices: Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Tyranids (as usual, each gets 1)

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:
There is no need whatsoever for SOB in 40k.
Women should be making sandwiches for the soldiers' return, not fighting.

We can't handle trolling of this magnitude!

It's not trolling. I want women in my TT game like I want piss in my beer.

For real now? Wow.

Okay, I guess ... free speech and all.

Banzaimash wrote:BT already fulfill the role of nut-job fanatics. They're more paladin-like than Sisters, and they're more crazy. At most Sisters should only really get a few slots in an Inquisitorial codex, along with Grey Knights.

I played Templars and the difference was quite minor to regular astartes.

Champion
Vows
Mixed Squads
Zealous advance when shot at

I know they're an old codex but several of those things are included in other marine dexs in some form

GK get a chapter champion
Space Wolves can mix terminators with there basic infantry

I don't really think armies should be removed, the problem is that half the armies released this edition were marines (4) and we're in line for another four in 6th. Given the obligitory Imperial Guard codex that doesn't leave much for xenos or even chaos daemons.

Vanilla
Templars
Dark Angels
Chaos Marines

But, considering that both Dark Eldar and Necrons got such considerable revamps probably on the easy proceeds of marines dexs IMO we probably have the best of all possible worlds.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Simples

Sisters of Battle = Nuns with gunz

There is no need whatsoever for SOB in 40k.
Women should be making sandwiches for the soldiers' return, not fighting.