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Sasori wrote:

junk wrote:Ever living makes them more survivable than lychguard. If a lychguard squad is wiped out, game over for them. If a lord squad is wiped out, no biggie, with a resorb, half of them get back up at the end of the phase. Also, while expensive, lords can take phase shifters, or be joined by Harbingers of Eternity with Timesplinter cloaks and chronometrons (rerollable 3+ invul) In CC they mitigate power weapon fights with mindshackle scarabs, in shooting, they weather AP2 weapons with ressurection orbs.

The royal court wins on merits, but like you said, you can only take 1 per overlord.


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Oh, +1 - Royal courts can hijack Open topped AV13 skimmers from warriors, whereas lychguard can only be transported by night scythe or monolith (neither allow assault after disembarkation)

For me, I prefer The Lords mixed in with a squad of Sword and board lychguard. You can buy a sword and board lychguard, for the price of a phase shifter. Two lords with Warscythes, MSS, and an Orb on one, combined with the Lychguard is a pretty deadly unit. Everliving only really makes a difference if the entire squad is wiped out, which is something we hope to avoid.

However, the biggest advantage to court lords, is they can snag a Ghost Ark, from a warrior squad.

I think both have their merits. I do believe the 4++ makes the Lychguard squad more survivable. As against a lot of weaponry, that gives you a 50% save, followed by a 50% chance to get back up with an Orb. Lord squads pay a super premium to have any type of invulnerable.

I run a 5-man sword/board lychguard with an overlord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a standard lord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a veiltek. I mentioned above that that they minced Kantor and some Termies.

The best thing about a sword/board Lychguard is that it can deflect an ap3 or better shot at an enemy unit within 6" if it passes its 4++

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:

junk wrote:Ever living makes them more survivable than lychguard. If a lychguard squad is wiped out, game over for them. If a lord squad is wiped out, no biggie, with a resorb, half of them get back up at the end of the phase. Also, while expensive, lords can take phase shifters, or be joined by Harbingers of Eternity with Timesplinter cloaks and chronometrons (rerollable 3+ invul) In CC they mitigate power weapon fights with mindshackle scarabs, in shooting, they weather AP2 weapons with ressurection orbs.

The royal court wins on merits, but like you said, you can only take 1 per overlord.


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Oh, +1 - Royal courts can hijack Open topped AV13 skimmers from warriors, whereas lychguard can only be transported by night scythe or monolith (neither allow assault after disembarkation)

For me, I prefer The Lords mixed in with a squad of Sword and board lychguard. You can buy a sword and board lychguard, for the price of a phase shifter. Two lords with Warscythes, MSS, and an Orb on one, combined with the Lychguard is a pretty deadly unit. Everliving only really makes a difference if the entire squad is wiped out, which is something we hope to avoid.

However, the biggest advantage to court lords, is they can snag a Ghost Ark, from a warrior squad.

I think both have their merits. I do believe the 4++ makes the Lychguard squad more survivable. As against a lot of weaponry, that gives you a 50% save, followed by a 50% chance to get back up with an Orb. Lord squads pay a super premium to have any type of invulnerable.

I run a 5-man sword/board lychguard with an overlord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a standard lord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a veiltek. I mentioned above that that they minced Kantor and some Termies.

The best thing about a sword/board Lychguard is that it can deflect an ap3 or better shot at an enemy unit within 6" if it passes its 4++

Why the shifter on the regular lord? You can buy an extra Lychguard for that price. Why two Orbs as well? Just keep the one on the regular Lord, since he can't be singled out.

I run it like that so I can take any non-reflectable (ie ap4 or worse) wounds on a 2+ save without to much hassle. Shifter on regular lord so he can hold on if he is last alive. Two orbs for the same reason. if one goes down, I've got a spare

Why the shifter on the regular lord? You can buy an extra Lychguard for that price. Why two Orbs as well? Just keep the one on the regular Lord, since he can't be singled out.

Thought the exact same thing.

IHateNids wrote:I run it like that so I can take any non-reflectable (ie ap4 or worse) wounds on a 2+ save without to much hassle. Shifter on regular lord so he can hold on if he is last alive. Two orbs for the same reason. if one goes down, I've got a spare

You can take your 3+ save on AP4 weapons.

It's really an inefficient use of points though. You can get a lot more out of that unit, and the rest of your army with a few tweaks. If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

junk wrote:That's true, the price of admission to a royal court is an overlord. Lychguard and destroyer lords seem like an odd mix, now I'm curious to see your list.

Simple, I don't use lychguard
I am planning of testing them out, eventually, though it will be a while before I get around to making a list. I am considering using them with nightscythes to get them close enough, and equip them with shields for extra durability.
The effect, I should imagine, would be a bit like a riot police squad crashing through the ceiling.

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

And I know I can take AP4 on 3+ saves, but I roll 2s a lot on a 3+ save. Just don't want anyone to go down to a stray bolter round

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

Please share with the rest of the class.

junk wrote:

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

Please share with the rest of the class.

I think he might be referring to the res orb carrier dies debate? But, actually that doesn't make sense in this context, so yeah put me down for confused as well.

This is fun, I'll guess at what his conversation with random gamer dude was.

Nids: Hey, you killed all my lychguard, except the lord!
Guy: Well now they can't get up.
Nids: Ah, but they can.
Guy: Oh? I have pizza cutters for hands.
Nids: Indeed.

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

And I know I can take AP4 on 3+ saves, but I roll 2s a lot on a 3+ save. Just don't want anyone to go down to a stray bolter round

No, they can't. It's under the Reanimation Protocol rules, that if a Character is the last one standing, then the unit may not attempt. Note, it says character, not independent character. Lords and Crypteks are characters.

I don't understand, you know you have to take the best save available? You must take your 3+ when are able to.

@Sasori: thats why I have a 2+

@junk: Its on the YMDC forums somewhere. It used the example of "if a unit of warriors goes down with only a cryptek remaining, can a ghost ark repair the warrior squad". The final answer was yes, so it stands to reason that if a dead unit with a cryptek standing can be ark'd, a dead unit with a lord standing can attempt we'll be back

Nids we play 1750 AND 2250

also remember what I said either a lith phlanalax or a ghost ark broadside will do fine as well...

More recently yes in preperation for the tourney

IHateNids wrote:@Sasori: thats why I have a 2+

@junk: Its on the YMDC forums somewhere. It used the example of "if a unit of warriors goes down with only a cryptek remaining, can a ghost ark repair the warrior squad". The final answer was yes, so it stands to reason that if a dead unit with a cryptek standing can be ark'd, a dead unit with a lord standing can attempt we'll be back

I just pointed out to you, where in the rules it says you can't use RP, if the lord is the last one standing.


EDIT: In addition, Ghost Arks function tottaly diffrent than RP, since it brings back models that have already failed their RP.

EDIT2

I'll re-quote myself for emphasis

No, they can't. It's under the Reanimation Protocol rules, that if a Character is the last one standing, then the unit may not attempt. Note, it says character, not independent character. Lords and Crypteks are characters.

Search the YMDCs, you'll find it somewhere. You can, and everyone in the upcoming tournement at my FLGS is playing it as you can, so the house interpretations will remain unchanged.

back me up happy

You CAN use a ghost ark on a cryptek or lord that is the sole survivor of a warrior squad because as a character and not an independent character they are still a 'unit of warriors' despite being a single not warrior model left.
You CANNOT attempt RP rolls for a squad that was wiped out all the way down to a cryptek or lord, the reanimation protocols entry on p29 of the cron dex specifically mentions characters being alive as insufficient to keep the unit's RP counters on the board so you don't get to make those rolls.

I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

IHateNids wrote:I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

You're wrong. YMDC never agreed with that. Arks still work, but you can't stand the warriors back up.
The Teks/Lords that stand back up are still part of the Warrior unit though.

IHateNids wrote:I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

They don't. The Rules are black and white on this issue. Read the Reanimation protocol rules again.

IHateNids wrote:I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

It's very clear in the codex. You don't get RP for the unit (not including Ever-living attached characters) if it is wiped out. Royal courts do not enable this.




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ShadarLogoth wrote:

They are overpriced, their shooting is just too short in range and they're not good against mech lists. Now you can swap out their rod for VB+PC, which makes them slightly better against vehicles, but now you're making them a subpar I2 assault unit that just cannot hold their own against similarly priced units (i.e. 10 assault terminators, any 10-man GK unit, etc.). I just see Fail all over as a consistent and reliable necron threat. They are just not an efficient unit for their cost, and they don't excel in whatever they do.

As the resident TP defender I guess I need to chime in here, but your comparing scissors to rock here, but we all know rock beats scissor. But none of us would ever make such a mistake in an actual game. Calvary go for artillery, artillery kill spear-man, spear-man kill cavalry. If your going to compare them point for point to a unit in a different codex you have to choose a jump/best/ect to compare them against. TPs have an 36" threat bubble, why would they ever assault something that they couldn't take?

Anyway, I think the fairest argument against them is Wraiths perform a bit better against troops, though the VB/PC combo on the TPs is very good if used correctly.

I am not comparing them to anything. I am only looking at their role in a TAC list. They just don't have the flexibility nor are they as efficient as some of the other units in the book. 400pts is a good chunk of the army that's dedicated to only a single role. Arm them with rods and they will have problems against mechanized lists. Give them with VB+PC and then they will have problems with foot-based lists. Play against a shooty list and watch them die quickly (unless you add a 200pts resorb destroyer lord with them, which then makes the unit even more expensive). They will not outassault other army's assault units, nor will they outshoot even medium shooty armies. Their AT is just subpar. What's the most common tank in the game? Transports. Using your 400pt unit to try to take out a 35pt rhino just isn't efficient, and then next turn you have to take the enemy's counter-attack/shooting.

Now I'm not saying that they're bad. They do have their uses and in certain matchups, they may shine. But overall, they are not an efficient unit, especially in an all-comer's list. There are just other units in the codex that can do what they do and do it better and cheaper.

SO inorder to stay on topic rather than argue YMDC, I saw mentioned a few posts back about a DL and lychguard in a squad, I must say, I never thought about it, but it intrigues me.

Pros:
DL is a tougher, more killy OL
Can still take Orb, weave and MSS

Cons:
DL is IC so he can be singled out
Takes away the DLs speed and deep strike ability

Thoughts?

I am not comparing them to anything. I am only looking at their role in a TAC list. They just don't have the flexibility nor are they as efficient as some of the other units in the book. 400pts is a good chunk of the army that's dedicated to only a single role. Arm them with rods and they will have problems against mechanized lists. Give them with VB+PC and then they will have problems with foot-based lists. Play against a shooty list and watch them die quickly (unless you add a 200pts resorb destroyer lord with them, which then makes the unit even more expensive). They will not outassault other army's assault units, nor will they outshoot even medium shooty armies. Their AT is just subpar. What's the most common tank in the game? Transports. Using your 400pt unit to try to take out a 35pt rhino just isn't efficient, and then next turn you have to take the enemy's counter-attack/shooting.

Now I'm not saying that they're bad. They do have their uses and in certain matchups, they may shine. But overall, they are not an efficient unit, especially in an all-comer's list. There are just other units in the codex that can do what they do and do it better and cheaper.

But they will out assault shooty units, and if big enough will out assault assautly units, and because of their speed and threat range they should be able to pick these battles. But really, your dramatically underrating their Anti Tank capabilities. 10 TPs + Dlord can cover 33" of board, why would you ever only assault one rhino? And if you did, your more then big enough to surround it and prevent the insides from disembarking, so your wiping 150 to 200 points, not just 35.

To block the back door of a 5 inch long rhino using a 6 inch assault move you need to basically be touching one of the front treads, you also then need at least 6 models in the unit to retain coherency across all 3 doors. Given that the assault rules make you move your closest model directly to the closest part of the unit you're assaulting you actually need at least 3 guys up almost touching that front rhino tread in the movement phase to fully surround the rhino in assault. Odds of your super expensive squad going largely unshot then having a full transport of guys within 12" that for some reason didn't get out and rapid fire/melta you is unlikely at best.

Preatorians with rods are good against terminators with strike last weapons and super expensive shooty infantry like destroyers or dark reapers(if you can sneak up on them with terrain anyway) but they are point for point garbage for anything else. Preatorians with void blades are more diverse but they're only really good at killing vehicles and meh at anything else and there's like 5 other things in the cron dex that are better at that. They look super cool though. Super cool.

Actinium wrote:To block the back door of a 5 inch long rhino using a 6 inch assault move you need to basically be touching one of the front treads, you also then need at least 6 models in the unit to retain coherency across all 3 doors. Given that the assault rules make you move your closest model directly to the closest part of the unit you're assaulting you actually need at least 3 guys up almost touching that front rhino tread in the movement phase to fully surround the rhino in assault. Odds of your super expensive squad going largely unshot then having a full transport of guys within 12" that for some reason didn't get out and rapid fire/melta you is unlikely at best.

Fair enough, I've pulled it off in conjunction with Tomb Blades, but of course...that was in conjunction with Tomb Blades.

Preatorians with rods are good against terminators with strike last weapons and super expensive shooty infantry like destroyers or dark reapers(if you can sneak up on them with terrain anyway) but they are point for point garbage for anything else. Preatorians with void blades are more diverse but they're only really good at killing vehicles and meh at anything else and there's like 5 other things in the cron dex that are better at that. They look super cool though. Super cool.

It takes two VB/PC TP bases to statistically pop a stationary transport in CC, That's pretty amazing. Scarabs can do for a bit cheaper pints wise but are considerably less durable. The big thing though, and I use the word BIG here quite intentionally is there threat range can be amazing. 33" stretched out length edge half way on the board can just about assault anything not hugging the board edges, and with 3+ armor save, access to stealth, a 4+ RP and T5, and 2+ armor save from the DLord, they can sustain a full armies worth of shooting and keep on ticking. Not many units in the game can make such a claim (Draigo..and...Draigo..and...Draigo...oh and TPs+DLord).


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As I have stated many times though, they compete with Wraiths, which are great, but it stifles me how people can rate Wraiths so well and TPs so poorly. Really they are very very close units. TPs (with PC/VB) are better against vehicles, Wraiths are better against MEQ and TEQ, TPs are better against hordes. So they both have their pros and cons. But some how the netlisters have turned this both having pros and cons into "ZOMG Wraiths are auto include and TPs are trash!!!!" ....odd that.

For me, and I've mentioned this a time or two around the Dakkas, is the DLord+10 TP unit is amazing with Nemesor. You can sling them Tank Hunter, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Hit and Run, basically what ever the situation calls for. It's hella fun to play with.

I would say wraiths are better than preatorians in almost every way. 2 wounds a 3++ and allocation shenanigans with per model upgrades, plus whip coils not only turn their own I2 weakness into pretty much a banshee mask but the attached dlord benefits as well. Triarchs aren't fighting for those all important fast attack slots but if you're running a dlord wraiths are really the retinue to go with, you don't wanna buy a weave and an orb and maybe a shifter to use the lord to protect the squad, you want the squad to protect the lord.

Actinium wrote:I would say wraiths are better than preatorians in almost every way. 2 wounds a 3++ and allocation shenanigans with per model upgrades, plus whip coils not only turn their own I2 weakness into pretty much a banshee mask but the attached dlord benefits as well.

With Stealth you can make TPs 3+ Cover Save, 4+ RP with Res Orb, and T5, so resiliency wise they are nearly identical when you start considering Wraiths can be insta gibbed, but the only way to take away RP from the TPs is wiping out the squad. As for options, the TPs come with one of the Wraiths options standard, and the lack of whip coils can be some what mitigated buy unloading 5 to 10 Strength 6 shots into the opponent first.

But again they are designed for different functions. Wraiths excel against anything with a power weapon (3++), but TPs are very strong against Hordes (T5, 3+ armor save and RP 4+) and vehicles. They both can do all of the above ok, but the simple fact is one is stronger against one, and the other the other. For some reason people don't want to concede the fact that TPs are indeed stronger against hordes and vehicles, despite the math clearly showing this to be the case.

Triarchs aren't fighting for those all important fast attack slots but if you're running a dlord wraiths are really the retinue to go with, you don't wanna buy a weave and an orb and maybe a shifter to use the lord to protect the squad, you want the squad to protect the lord.

Why wouldn't you want to buy a weave and res orb to protect the TP's, then they are effectively protecting each other, synergism. People commonly buy the Sweave on the Dlord when he's running with the wraiths anyway, and the cost of the res orb is a no brainer on a 560 point unit.

I'll probably try both combos at one point, but Shadar has a great point. 10 VB/PC TPs + rezorb DLord with Nemesor Zahndrekh giving them tank hunter every turn will make a meched MSU player gak themselves.

EDIT: Another good thing about Zahndrekh is Obyron. Put him with a ten man Shieldguard squad in a NS and you've got a mobile HQ hunter as well, where the WS6 & counterblow rules of Obyron will turn the higher I of enemy characters against them. Another squad of shieldguard can guard Zahndrek.

Just a little math on the Hordes argument:

It takes 72...yes, 72! Strength 3 attack to statistically remove a TP base with a Res Orb.

72(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)(1/2)= 1

Conversely, it takes 36 Strength 3 attacks to reliably remove a Wraith Base.

36(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)= 2

So TPs are effectively twice as resilient to torrent non PW attacks then wraiths are.

ok, so 10 TPs+DLord can beat an ork horde.
I will take those odds