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DogOfWar wrote:

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

No to hitting on a 2+. Using a models normal BS is fine (although the spotter rule is good, I've always liked the idea of IG sniper teams)

As far as the AP is concerned for standard snipers, keep in mind that the rocket-propelled, mass-reactive coke cans fired by a heavy bolter designed to blow people apart are only AP4. AP1 is a little extreme.

I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

Personally this is what I am thinking for sniper rifles

Basic Sniper Rifle (something simple like a Long las or something) Range: 36" Str: X* AP: 5 Type: Heavy 1, Sniper
Advanced Sniper Rifle (something that some kind of elite unit might be given) Range: 36" Str: X* AP: 4 Type: Heavy 1, Sniper
Heavy Sniper Rifle (something similar to Tau rail rifles) Range: 36" Str: X** AP: 2 Type: Heavy 1, Sniper, Anti-Materiel***

*X: Wounds on a 3+
**X: Wounds on a 2+
***Anti-Materiel: Adds 1 to any damaged chart rolls against vehicles that aren't classified as tanks

DogOfWar wrote:
I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

Why is it AP3? I dont see how it would completely ignore the massively thick and complex armor of space marines. Uranium is a rather terrible projectile in most cases, it is brittle so it has a tendency to shatter when it impacts a target, especilly an oblique hit. If it hits directly and does not shatter it has a nice chance to bore through armor but it doesnt always do it. Also to do it, it requires massive kinetic energy. Something a sniper rifles just doesnt have.


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McNinja wrote:Granted, S10 may be too high, but the most powerful modern day day anti-material rifles are capable of piercing 6 inches of steel and killing the target within the APC

oooo 6" of steel? You know tanks dont use steel armor anymore because it doesnt disipate energy very well. they use much more effective composite armors.
seconld 6" is nothing, the 120mm on an M1A1 tank can penetrate 14 feet, that is 84" and it has the power to kill everyone on the other side of that armor not just anyone who happens to be on the other side of it.

Personally, I want Witchblades to always count as Str 9, not just when they are against vehicles. This would give something like Termies/Mega Nobz an armor save, but could 1 shot them upon getting through the armor. Similar to a Force Weapon, but different for Eldar.

I would change Shuriken Catapults/Avenger Shuriken Catapults to 18"/24" as talked about before. This is for obvious reasons that are part of why Eldar can't bring as much as other armies.

I would make Sniper Rifles just give a +1 to BS, I do not think that would break them too much. This would add the benefit of the scope on the rifle, but still keep it a rifle.

Eldar Lasblasters need either a Str + or an AP - to make them effective. I'm not entirely sure which one would be better, probably the Strength to make them a bit more relevant.

The last thing I really dislike isn't quite a weapon, but a rule for one. Gets Hot! I feel should be changed to making you not shoot for the next turn. Really, why in this Universe would someone wield a weapon that could leak all over them but doesn't go straight through their armor (as per their armor save). Are you telling me you can't make a weapon that has a reservoir to catch said overflowing plasma? Just 1 turn to service their weapon would make sense to me, maybe 2 if you really wanted to still make it a negative. Being wounded by it just seems...ridiculous.

Exergy wrote:Why is it AP3? I dont see how it would completely ignore the massively thick and complex armor of space marines. Uranium is a rather terrible projectile in most cases, it is brittle so it has a tendency to shatter when it impacts a target, especilly an oblique hit. If it hits directly and does not shatter it has a nice chance to bore through armor but it doesnt always do it. Also to do it, it requires massive kinetic energy. Something a sniper rifles just doesnt have.

Fluff - AP3 is pretty reasonable for the equivalent of modern anti-material rifles. SM armour is generally considered to be impervious to most small arms in the way an APC's armour would be. A few inches of ceramite is plenty when it comes to energy weaponry (excellent heat dissapation) but when faced with dedicated AP rounds, It would fail in the same way you can put holes through AV10 (A HMMWV, for instance).

"Real World" - Depleted Uranium is an excellent penetrator core for several different calibre ammunition but, yes, it's mainly used for 30mm cannon and above. The shattering effect of DU is actually part of the reason it makes such an effective penetrator (coupled with its weight and incendiary characteristics). A .50 BMG puts out something like 20kj of force —which is plenty to propel a DU round— and one can assume that higher kinetic energy/weight powders will probably be developed to make this even easier. Granted, there are new technologies out there for AP ammunition, but everyone knows Depleted Uranium (if only by name) and it sounds cool. That's really all that matters in the end.

Gameplay - I seem to notice people seem to see AP3 and immediately start throwing their hands up in outcry. Hotshot Lasguns were accused of being far too powerful at first until people sat down and realized you needed a 5+ to wound MEQ. This is a dedicated heavy weapon, like a Lascannon, and would be fielded in either heavy weapons teams (max of 3 per squad) or in a platoon/veteran squad (max of 1). A single shot, BS3 (or 4) weapon that wounds on a 4+ at 36" would not be game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, even if it is AP3.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:"Real World" - Depleted Uranium is an excellent penetrator core for several different calibre ammunition but, yes, it's mainly used for 30mm cannon and above. The shattering effect of DU is actually part of the reason it makes such an effective penetrator (coupled with its weight and incendiary characteristics). A .50 BMG puts out something like 20kj of force —which is plenty to propel a DU round— and one can assume that higher kinetic energy/weight powders will probably be developed to make this even easier. Granted, there are new technologies out there for AP ammunition, but everyone knows Depleted Uranium (if only by name) and it sounds cool. That's really all that matters in the end.

The shattering effect is what people exploit to defeat it. Reactive armor chucks fire, intercept the projectile and cause it to shatter before it every hits the tank. DU is used on 30mm and more also on a rapid firing weapon. The first hit or two doesnt do much damage but it dents the armor slightly as it shatters. The third and forth round hit that dent and start driving itself into the armor.

Its all about the angle, the DU is brittle so it fails axially. If it gets into the right situation where it is being opposed on all sides of the projectile trying to shear its outer circumfrance off it fails at a nice clean 45 degree angle because as i said, brittle materials do not fail in shear. This then nice pointed 45 degree angle then pushes further into the armor and fails again at the same 45 degree angle. driving itself further and further into the armor while reducing its energy very little.

20kj isnt a lot compared with dedicated AT weapons. It also isnt a lot compared with modern tank armor. I expect armor to match weapons development or else why would there be tanks in the year 40k.

I think sniper rifles against armor is fine right now, I dont think they should have a chance against a Land Raider, which is described in the fluff as having no vulnerable spots like a tank of today. If anything I think sniper rifles would be more likely to do glancing damage than penetrating rolls.

IG Vet sentries - Their defensive grenades should be modified to add Claymores with the following profile: When assaulted, the Vets detonate their directional explosives that automatically hit every attacking model in the assaulting unit with a str 3 ap 5 hit before any close combat hits are rolled. If assaulted by more than one unit simultaneously the defending player may decide which unit will take the entirety of the blast, as veterans will surely know that to waste their anti-personal mines on things the size or strength of a tank is to invite certain death. Counts also as defensive mines. May only be used once per game.

Tau:
Burst Cannon=Heavy Bolter
Fusion Blaster= Multi-Melta
Missile Pod=Auto Cannon
Done.

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:Personally, I want Witchblades to always count as Str 9, not just when they are against vehicles. This would give something like Termies/Mega Nobz an armor save, but could 1 shot them upon getting through the armor. Similar to a Force Weapon, but different for Eldar.

actually not bad

Maybe just wound on 2+ and cause ID against all models without a test.

(EW obviously ignores ID)


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Then again you could make them old cron weapons

Ignore all saves, invunerable and armor, but wound on normal strenght.

Exergy wrote:

McNinja wrote:Granted, S10 may be too high, but the most powerful modern day day anti-material rifles are capable of piercing 6 inches of steel and killing the target within the APC

oooo 6" of steel? You know tanks dont use steel armor anymore because it doesnt disipate energy very well. they use much more effective composite armors.
seconld 6" is nothing, the 120mm on an M1A1 tank can penetrate 14 feet, that is 84" and it has the power to kill everyone on the other side of that armor not just anyone who happens to be on the other side of it.

First, Depleted Uranium rounds are often used instead of Tungsten or lead because of its ability to ignite after penetrating armor. Second, it's generally good to not come off as a condescending douchebag. Third, we aren't discussing the power of Tank shells. The vast majority of us can figure that a tank shell is better than a rifle round. Fourth, if DU was so bad, it wouldn't faceroll tanks. The only real problem is that it leaves behind traces of radiation. Fifth, The US military also uses Tungsten and Tungsten Carbide in AP capacities. Both are dense materials, and Tungsten Carbide is also extremely hard.

Last, but not least, you greatly overestimate the stopping power of Power Armor. It isn't massively thick and complex, in fact the complexities have little to do with it. Support systems within the suit don't count for beans if the ceramite plating surrounding them is breeched. It's high-tech ceramic. You know what ceramic does when it's shot? It shatters. That's why Ceramic bullet resistant vests are single use if they are shot with .50 cal rounds. Also, assuming the AdMech isn't completely slowed and actually uses more than just Ceramite plating, it's still metal, and can still be penetrated with proper application of force. Chobham armor used on the best tanks today can still be bypassed with enough force. You need three things to penetrate armor using kinetic energy penetrators: force, mass, and high muzzle velocity. Depleted Uranium has an incredibly high density, hence why it is used. GAU 8 Avenger cannons fire 30mm 425 gram projectiles at 3500 f/s, although that is a vehicle mounted anti-tank weapon on par with a Vulcan Mega Bolter. The IWS 2000 fires a 20 gram Tungsten flechette with a muzzle velocity of 4750 f/s, and is fully capable of penetrating the two walls of a modern APC, and is designed to be used against helicopters, radar cabins, light vehicles, fuel tanks, etc. While it may not pierce tank armor, it will most certainly take out any APC.

Oh, and one more thing; Vindicare Assassins have ammunition that will penetrate the crap out of tanks. It see no reason why a lesser version could not be made accessible to the Space Marines, and especially to dedicated Sniper teams. Larger caliber ammunition for the superhuman Power Armor wearing soldiers because they can handle the increased recoil (though the 30mm ammunition fired by the GAU 8 puts out 10,000 lbs of recoil, which a Space Marine couldn't even handle). The variants I posted were meant to be used by different soldier in different capacities, the most powerful only useable by dedicated SM sniper teams, while variant 3 would be the most powerful available to IG. The Space Marines, especially the Sternguard, have access to the powerful Kraken Penetrator ammunition. There is no reason why that type of ammunition, with its increased AP capabilities, could not be used in a SM sniper rifle, which by all rights should be a much larger round than even Bolters fire. The standard ammunition for soldiers today is 5.56mm NATO. Standard for large caliber rifles and heavy machine guns is .50 caliber (or 12.7mm). Now step it up to SM terms: standard ammo is 12.7mm. LMGs (to the SM, at least) fire .75 caliber rounds. Sniper rifles and heavy machine guns should fire 1.00 caliber rounds. Then, add the Kraken penetrator round into the equation: a special round designed to pierce armor at long ranges. Sure, standard ammo for other sniper rifles wouldn't be 1.00 caliber (just like not all sniper rifles use .50 cal, many use 7.62/.308 rounds for anti-personnel ops, and the Cheytac Intervention uses .406, if I'm not mistaken), but, the calibers and thus the stats, would vary similarly throughout the various armies.

Exergy wrote:The shattering effect is what people exploit to defeat it. Reactive armor chucks fire, intercept the projectile and cause it to shatter before it every hits the tank. DU is used on 30mm and more also on a rapid firing weapon. The first hit or two doesnt do much damage but it dents the armor slightly as it shatters. The third and forth round hit that dent and start driving itself into the armor.

Its all about the angle, the DU is brittle so it fails axially. If it gets into the right situation where it is being opposed on all sides of the projectile trying to shear its outer circumfrance off it fails at a nice clean 45 degree angle because as i said, brittle materials do not fail in shear. This then nice pointed 45 degree angle then pushes further into the armor and fails again at the same 45 degree angle. driving itself further and further into the armor while reducing its energy very little.

20kj isnt a lot compared with dedicated AT weapons. It also isnt a lot compared with modern tank armor. I expect armor to match weapons development or else why would there be tanks in the year 40k.

Actually, DU generally performs more effectively against reactive armours and 3-stage systems than Tungsten alloys, although there are always ongoing developments in technology. Here are a couple of good reads if you don't mind the dry format. Granted they're a little dated, but Wikipedia can only get you so far:

http://fhp.osd.mil/du/pdfs/1999279_0000010.pdf

http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_40/iss_3/JFS403950401.pdf

Oh and weapon technology has astronomically surpassed vehicle technology in 40k. The fact that tanks exist at all is purely for aesthetic and plot reasons, not any legitimate technological comparison. The humble Lasgun, for instance, is a mind-bogglingly complex piece of technology and they hand them out to any old shmoe. Tanks and treads do make things more grimdark, though, and I guess that's the idea.

DoW

EDIT - Ninja'd (sort of) by a ninja!

Exergy wrote:The shattering effect is what people exploit to defeat it. Reactive armor chucks fire, intercept the projectile and cause it to shatter before it every hits the tank. DU is used on 30mm and more also on a rapid firing weapon. The first hit or two doesnt do much damage but it dents the armor slightly as it shatters. The third and forth round hit that dent and start driving itself into the armor.

Its all about the angle, the DU is brittle so it fails axially. If it gets into the right situation where it is being opposed on all sides of the projectile trying to shear its outer circumfrance off it fails at a nice clean 45 degree angle because as i said, brittle materials do not fail in shear. This then nice pointed 45 degree angle then pushes further into the armor and fails again at the same 45 degree angle. driving itself further and further into the armor while reducing its energy very little.

20kj isnt a lot compared with dedicated AT weapons. It also isnt a lot compared with modern tank armor. I expect armor to match weapons development or else why would there be tanks in the year 40k.

I think sniper rifles against armor is fine right now, I dont think they should have a chance against a Land Raider, which is described in the fluff as having no vulnerable spots like a tank of today. If anything I think sniper rifles would be more likely to do glancing damage than penetrating rolls.

While true, the composite armor, such as Chobham armor, is only useful against a couple hits in the same area. After that, the stopping power of the armor lessens exponentially, as the hard ceramic outside breaks away. And yes, in nearly every single situation, a missile would be massively preferable to a rifle against a tank, though neither would do that much damage with a single hit. Sniper rifles have always been decent against light vehicles, and their rending ability would be as if they hit a vulnerable spot. I think the most sniper rifles should get against AV14 (barring space magic and super-duper tech) is a glance. While the best anti-material rifle (barring the Vindicare Assassin's super-duper tech) may be able to penetrate some of the armor, it shouldn't go all of the way through, perhaps hitting a critical system or severing a tread link.

Sniper rifles may be fine against armor (though only barely), but they are nearly useless against infantry. AP 6 and rending is not good, even against IG. When basic infantry get a save against an SM sized sniper rifle, something is wrong. Also, technically the extremely flat sides of the Lander Raider are a weakness, and why no tanks today have many flat sides, unlike the IoM vehicles, which ALL have perfectly flat sides.

Rough Rider Hunting Lance:
+2 I and S (same values as now, but works with furious charge bonuses) and a power weapon when they charge (every charge, not just the first).

I think this would make Rough Riders worth it.

Ok to the snipers rifle debate, wow just wow. You guys went into a whole new arena of wierdness debating that one. I play ork we don't have sniper rifles ( for obvious reasons, lol) but sniper rifles today are not used to pierce tanks anyway, They are used to kill in infantry, or high value targets. So for my 2¢ the AP should be 3. There is no way SM ARMOUR will be able to stop a well placed round if I shot them in the face, or the visor for that matter. Ok you can continue your epic discussion now.
Don't know who mentioned it but grot blasta- rending? What are you kidding me, its a piece of @?*# weapon that orks give to gretchin to make them feel special, no way in hell should they be rending. If anything they should be pistol and not assault 1.

@Ravenous - AM rifles actually are used to take out tanks in modern combat, especially against older tank design where the flaws and weaknesses are more pronounced. In 40K, we have tanks with exposed treads, power supplies, and no angling on the hulls. They are quite literally metal boxes with important bits exposed - something that can be destroyed with a powerful rifle in the right hands.

Yes, I do realize that AM rifles are in use today, and when they were first introduced could take out older tank with ease, today modern tanks are too well protected, they are infact used against unprotected and lightly armoured vehicles. I get it in 40k the models are exposed, and the side are boxed, and no angling of hulls and what have you. But do you think that in 40,000 years that the armour on said tanks is better than on modern tanks. So if AM rifles of today are shooting at tanks, ie abrams tank and equivalent of today and cannot penetrate them, what makes you think that they will be able to in the future. What you think the penetrating power of a SNiPER


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Yes, I do realize that AM rifles are in use today, usually by a 2-3 man team, and when they were first introduced could take out older tanks with ease, today modern tanks are too well protected, they are infact used against unprotected and lightly armoured vehicles. I get it in 40k the models are exposed, and the side are boxed, and no angling of hulls and what have you. But dont you think that in 40,000 years that the armour on said tanks is better than on modern tanks and older tanks. So if AM rifles of today are shooting at tanks, ie abrams tank and equivalent of today and cannot penetrate them, what makes you think that they will be able to in the future. What you think the penetrating power of a SNIPER RIFLES round will be more advanced than the protection on a tank, and freaking tank. Yes technology will advance to point where the round will be able to penetrate the armor of a tank but then the tank builders will just turn around and build a tank that can't be penetrated by that round, but that is the real world and we are playing a tabletop game, that is not real. If you want to make sniper rifle before then instead of allowing units to be upgraded with sniper rifles, make a whole new unit called a sniper team and allowing them to upgrade the rounds they fire at a cost. To be honest with you that doesn't sound bad at all. NEW space marine unit: scout sniper squad- 2-3per squad, one shooter, one spotter, 1 ammo man(opitional), basic sniper rules with AP3, with upgraded rounds like the sternguard rounds or whatever, SM players should know what I mean, that is just off the top of my head, sorry I ranted, if I was a douche in doing so I sincerely apologize. If anything snipers should be able to pick their own target out of any squad.
On to reworking another ork weapon- big choppas= +2 strength, rending? For 15pts, Or just make it a power weapon say 20pts. What you guys think?


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Soryy double post somewhat, but that scout sniper unit really doesn't sound that bad.

I agree that weapons teams would be awesome for certain weapons, yes.

In 40K, the land raider has 365mm steel equivalent armour. Total. With no angling.

Everything that goes into AV14 = 365mm of steel.

365mm of steel has been chewed through by human teeth using human jaws, so that we're clear here. It was an extraordinary feat by a man with some funky-ass teeth, but they still count as human, and his jaw was nothing special.

Actually, all discussion of AP, Anti-material and whatnot aside, just having snipers pick out their targets (a la Vindicare) would be enough to have me take them in a heartbeat.

Maybe it's as simple as that?

DoW

I had no idea AV 14 was so pitiful.

Anyway, many people overestimate Power Armor. It is not Terminator Armor, and you are not invulnerable, for reasions I mentioned above.

The thing is, even if Sniper Rifles aren't used for killing vehicles (and the VA set a poor example), then it still blows hard in its other, more main, capacity: killing individual, non-vehicle targets. Let's see... Hits on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, and has rending. Wow. So good. You have to rely on rending to get the job done.

My original sniper post still stands. Different levels of sniper rifles for different teams, and they can upgrade rifles. Main one for guard should be AP5, while the main one for SM should be AP4, then AP with Kraken rounds and AP2 with Vengeance rounds.

Or just keep the same rifle, just change the rounds being fired, like I came up with. But anyways, sniper rifles aren't used to kill vics, they are used to kill infantry. Ok I'm done I'm out, no longer talking a something I don't use in my army anyway.

ravenousork25 wrote:Or just keep the same rifle, just change the rounds being fired, like I came up with. But anyways, sniper rifles aren't used to kill vics, they are used to kill infantry. Ok I'm done I'm out, no longer talking a something I don't use in my army anyway.

or do both. Having IG and SMs use the same weapon is dumb. SM snipers should be bigger.

I like how we hijacked the thread to talk about sniper rifles and current gen armor.

first off rememebr flash gitz are BS2 to begin with and 25 points per model so ...

keep the options of mre dakka for +1 shot per model, and shootier for +1 str, get rid of blasta (-1 ap to roll but adds gets hot)

make the snazzgun base

36" str 5 AP D3 Assault 2

currently they are in such an add spot of random ap fo rinfantry but good str to wound... but not enough to really hurt even low armour vehicles , with d3 ap they can (with luck) do better when they glance or pen vehicles even though they will be str 5 or 6

What I meant was not the same rifle for both IG and SM but having the rifle be same as it is now just making it AP3 or if not making the rounds you can take be different. Sorry for the confusion, and I can second hijacking the thread with a sniper rifle and it penetration validity.
I can agree with the snazzgun at AP D3 too. That would be interesting and I might actually use them in a game.

I see what you're getting at. Sniper teams should definitely have access to different ammo types like Sternguard, though base AP should be 5 for ig and 4 for sm, if only to convey the difference in size and power. SMs could only take a few, and IG could take a bit more. I mean... What has an armor save of 6+? Kroot? Wyches? I think its funny that a rifle can penetrate, at most, a latex bodysuit.

How about a Flak Jacket that an Ork wears? Or hard carapace of a Hormagaunt? 6+ just represents bare basic protection. Not just latex.

Meltacannon: Range 24" str 10 ap1 2D6 armor pen on vehicles hit under center hole.

Right now the meltacannon is pretty mediocre because its barely better than a plasma cannon, which can be taken on an armored sentinel. The platform also competes in FoC with the Vendetta (for similar points too).

Jerjare wrote:Meltacannon: Range 24" str 10 ap1 2D6 armor pen on vehicles hit under center hole.

Right now the meltacannon is pretty mediocre because its barely better than a plasma cannon, which can be taken on an armored sentinel. The platform also competes in FoC with the Vendetta (for similar points too).

Meltacannon?

And that is just horribly unbalanced. Str 10 AP 1 2D6 Pen? Anything under that template is gone.

It is actually just a far shorter ranged version.of the.Titan weapon of the same name. That can still be Str 5 against vehicles and roll 1D6 AP.

Deadshot wrote:It is actually just a far shorter ranged version.of the.Titan weapon of the same name. That can still be Str 5 against vehicles and roll 1D6 AP.

Ah. I'd of thought it to be wise to ban fixing Apoc weapons.

Anyway.

I still think that it's broken - Str 10 AP 1 with 2D6 pen is horrendous.

I like the idea of always S9 Witchblades/Singing Spears. It makes them different from Dark Eldar poison weapons by removing the flat 2+ to wound and still makes them effective against high Toughness units and vehicles.

Giving them Instant Death is an interesting proposal and changes (to a degree) their target priority. As it stands, my biggest complaint with Witchblades is their lack of armor penetration, but making the weapon itself a power weapon would be overpowered. Perhaps add a Warlock power that upgrades the Witchblade to power weapon status for +10 points?

I like the idea of a Farseer power that empowers a Witchblade or Singing Spear to act as AP1 and ignore invulnerable saves for that turn. Requires a psychic test and costs say, +20 points?

Deadshot wrote:How about a Flak Jacket that an Ork wears? Or hard carapace of a Hormagaunt? 6+ just represents bare basic protection. Not just latex.

Regardless of what an armor save of 6+ represents, it's still sad that a sniper rifle can only penetrate that.