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No, Blap was right. Pg 33 of the Nid codex sopecifically states that they never gain bonus attacks for multiple CCW. The tradeoff is that they gain the benefits of all their CCW. So a model with Lash Whip, Scything Talons and Boneswords with have a Power Weapon, reduce an enemy in Base contact to |Int 1 and reroll 1s to hit in CC, and any model wounded by it would have to pass a Ld test or suffer ID.

Also, hey do in fact have CCW, not just biomorphs. Biomorphs are something different to weapons. They are basically wargear that gives special rules rather than weapons. For example, a Pyrovore has an acid maw. It ignores saves in CC. But Aid Maw is not a Power Weapon. It simply states that the CC attacks of a Pyrovore ignore armour saves.

chrisrawr wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Spinefists
Rg 12"Str 4, AP 6, Twinlinked Assault X (X=number of attacks on creature's profile). Count as 2 CCW in CC./thread.

Tyranids don't get a boost from multiple combat weapons. Spinefists should probably +1 to attacks if you feel that way.

Not strictly true. Their biomorphs only apply to their already present attacks, and aren't actually weapons. If a nid actually did somehow gain 2 ccw, it would get the benefits of +1A.

But no nid has 2 CCWs, and Spinefists are Biomorphs, so it applies in this situation.

Spinefists are not Biomorphes. Biomorphs are Nid equipment that are not weapons.

In fact, many Nids do have multiple CCW. They just have a special rule stating theydon't gain extra attacks from them.
Any of the following is not a biomorph for Nids.
Any thing with a gun's profile. These are weapons.

The following are all CCW.
Boneswords
Lash Whips
Claws+Teeth
Rending Claws
Crushing Claws
Scything Talons.

Deadshot wrote:
In fact, many Nids do have multiple CCW. They just have a special rule stating theydon't gain extra attacks from them.

Actually, it is the other way around: there is no special rule that states that nids can't have +1 A from double CCW-s (or at least i can't find it in the codex), but their only close-combat weapon is the 'claws and teeth'.

To clarify, I quote from page 33 of the Tyranid Codex, under the heading Tyranid Close Combat Weapons:

"As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile."

That seems pretty clear to me.

First look at Pg 83. The heading at the top is CCWs. From that section you can see that Boneswords, Lashwhips and all of those are CCW. C+T are normal CCW. All this means is that they get no bonus rules and will simply attack as normal.

Then look at the top right hand corner of Pg 33. It states that a Nid with 2+ CCW gains no bonus attacks. These will be given in a creatures profile.

Edit: Blap Ninja'd me.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:To clarify, I quote from page 33 of the Tyranid Codex, under the heading Tyranid Close Combat Weapons:

"As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile."

That seems pretty clear to me.

Aaaahhh... Page 33... And i tried to find it in the wargears section... Silly me !

Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

It wasn't bad before, but Guardian-based lists have suffered from a lack of power-weapon sergeants. I like this variant better; plus it's more in-line with the fluff portrayal of Witchblades as Eldar Force Weapons when everyone else's Force Weapons are power weapons.

Simply make a Glaive Encarmine a relic blade. It would make Sanguinary Guard a helluva lot better in the game.

Maybe even allow a 6++? Or is that pushing it a bit?

*update*
Ripper Guns get Rending Rule (shooting and melee

AnomanderRake wrote:Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

It wasn't bad before, but Guardian-based lists have suffered from a lack of power-weapon sergeants. I like this variant better; plus it's more in-line with the fluff portrayal of Witchblades as Eldar Force Weapons when everyone else's Force Weapons are power weapons.

so make it like an agonizer but better?





Blast Pistol, change range to 9" and decrease cost 5 points

Shredder: remove blast, assault 3

Void Lance. Change to AP1

Implosion Missiles. Change completely to Str4 AP1 Large Blast, glance anything on a 6.

Shatterfield Missiles. Reroll armor penetration

@Exergy isn't the agonizer a 4+ power weapon? Isn't that what he proposed? ;s

Exorcist Missile Launcher - 3+D3 hits.

Grot Blasta - Rending.

Power Weapons in general - +D3 armour penetration.

Eradicator cannon: Str 6 ap 3 ordiance large blast

Infernous pistol. increase cost by 5 increase range to 12".

thestormlord wrote:Infernous pistol. increase cost by 5 increase range to 12".

So it is actually better than a.meltagun? No. Keep the range the same. The infernus pistol is perfect.

chrisrawr wrote:@Exergy isn't the agonizer a 4+ power weapon? Isn't that what he proposed? ;s

AnomanderRake wrote:
Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

OR BETTER

I dont like them as posioned weapons, I dont like them as Agonizers, I dont like them as rending weapons. To me they need their own functionallity that makes them unique and then point costs to balance.

Exergy wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:@Exergy isn't the agonizer a 4+ power weapon? Isn't that what he proposed? ;s

AnomanderRake wrote:
Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

OR BETTER

I dont like them as posioned weapons, I dont like them as Agonizers, I dont like them as rending weapons. To me they need their own functionallity that makes them unique and then point costs to balance.

Could we just have them as Master-Crafted Force Weapons? Just throwing about ideas here.

Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

Lightning Shadows wrote:Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

I like #3. Not too excessive but shows that chainswords are more powerful.

DoW

Lightning Shadows wrote:Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

Sounds logical, but a knife is really sharp, replacing the sundering of flesh with a single powerful slash or stab. I'd say it's pretty balanced.

Exergy wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

It wasn't bad before, but Guardian-based lists have suffered from a lack of power-weapon sergeants. I like this variant better; plus it's more in-line with the fluff portrayal of Witchblades as Eldar Force Weapons when everyone else's Force Weapons are power weapons.

so make it like an agonizer but better?

An Agonizer that hits at S9 against tanks and can only be taken on a minimum-30-pt squad leader with one Attack? Versus regular Agonizers that can be taken on I6 A3 Hekiatrix Syrens for 43pts...hike Warlock base cost to 30pts from 25, that should cover the difference.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Lightning Shadows wrote:Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

Sounds logical, but a knife is really sharp, replacing the sundering of flesh with a single powerful slash or stab. I'd say it's pretty balanced.

Would you rather be stabbed with a knife or a chainsaw?

Though I somewhat agree. The SM knife is not just a standard blade, it's often described as having a monomolecular edge or being a lesser version of a vibroblade, both of which would definitely make it more killy.

DoW

All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

AnomanderRake wrote:
An Agonizer that hits at S9 against tanks and can only be taken on a minimum-30-pt squad leader with one Attack? Versus regular Agonizers that can be taken on I6 A3 Hekiatrix Syrens for 43pts...hike Warlock base cost to 30pts from 25, that should cover the difference.

so on a warlock which has passive psykic powers and a 4++ save. Great against vehicles and dreadnaughts, better against infantry and all for just a few points. Seer councils are already great as they are. This would just make them silly. Should they be close combat gods you suggest?

Snipers should not be 2+ to hit. Sure you can put the bullet in better, but the placement of the shot still depends on the marksmenship of the user.


And FYI (for those who don't know) marksmenship isn't jut about shooting in the right spot. Its about factoring in wind, gravity, force, distance, even things like gravity and where the target will move. Placing a bullet where he is going to be is better than putting it where he was. Even things like potential faults in the round can make the difference between a kilkl and a wound, or a hit and a miss. One tiny fleck of paint can alter everything.

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+
I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.
Something like this:
Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S10 against vehicles)

the range of a missle or a tanks cannon. Higher strength than a anti tank missile, higher strength than a tank's cannon. If we posses this technology, why does anyone in the world field anything but sniper rifles? why not fit a sniper riffle in the turret of a tank instead of a 120mm cannon?

I am constantly surprised by the wet dreams people have about sniper rifles. Its a rifle, it can be used to take out soft targets but not hardened bunkers. It lacks the punch, sorry.

Exergy wrote:

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+
I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.
Something like this:
Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S10 against vehicles)

the range of a missle or a tanks cannon. Higher strength than a anti tank missile, higher strength than a tank's cannon. If we posses this technology, why does anyone in the world field anything but sniper rifles? why not fit a sniper riffle in the turret of a tank instead of a 120mm cannon?

I am constantly surprised by the wet dreams people have about sniper rifles. Its a rifle, it can be used to take out soft targets but not hardened bunkers. It lacks the punch, sorry.

except that the range of various weapons in 40k is way off. Missiles have a far longer range than sniper rifles (for instance, a Javelin Missile has an effective range of 4500 meters or 5500 against jets and a 120mm cannon has a range of around 4000m), as do tank cannons. Sure, it can't take out a bunker, but in 40,000 years when everything is supersized, why would their most powerful sniper rifle not be insane? A Vindicare can roll 4d6 for armor pen with an AP1 sniper weapon. Granted, S10 may be too high, but the most powerful modern day day anti-material rifles are capable of piercing 6 inches of steel and killing the target within the APC. Also, Missiles, tank cannons, etc hold far more power than a Sniper rifle, which is why they are not used for taking out singular points on vehicles or soft targets. You don't need a tank to take out a single person for obvious reasons. You also can't put a rifle on a tank and expect to get the same results, unless you are taking a tank into a forest and are going to try to sniper someone with it.

Deadshot wrote:Snipers should not be 2+ to hit. Sure you can put the bullet in better, but the placement of the shot still depends on the marksmenship of the user.


And FYI (for those who don't know) marksmenship isn't jut about shooting in the right spot. Its about factoring in wind, gravity, force, distance, even things like gravity and where the target will move. Placing a bullet where he is going to be is better than putting it where he was. Even things like potential faults in the round can make the difference between a kill and a wound, or a hit and a miss. One tiny fleck of paint can alter everything.

Then a sniper+spotter unit would increase the snipers BS by 2. A dedicated sniper would have the skill necessary to do the job. This also makes me wonder why a model with BS3 is given a sniper rifle...

Lighter Armour and Infiltrate, methinks.

And on the subject of Witchblades, I think it could work if by passing a Psychic Test, it becomes Str 6, and it is already a Force Weapon.

Maybe varients of Psyker powers for a witchblade type, like different NFW?

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

No to hitting on a 2+. Using a models normal BS is fine (although the spotter rule is good, I've always liked the idea of IG sniper teams)

As far as the AP is concerned for standard snipers, keep in mind that the rocket-propelled, mass-reactive coke cans fired by a heavy bolter designed to blow people apart are only AP4. AP1 is a little extreme.

I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

No to hitting on a 2+. Using a models normal BS is fine (although the spotter rule is good, I've always liked the idea of IG sniper teams)

As far as the AP is concerned for standard snipers, keep in mind that the rocket-propelled, mass-reactive coke cans fired by a heavy bolter designed to blow people apart are only AP4. AP1 is a little extreme.

I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

well, the thing is that Bolters , as far as I know and can infer from descriptions of how they work, do not have as high a muzzle velocity as a sniper rifle. Also, keep in mind that Kraken penetrator rounds are more akin to an armor piercing round of current day militaries, and we even have APFSDS rounds, which are capable of insane feats of armor penetration. Bolter rounds simply explode, which is concussive force and heat, whereas a sniper AP round is pure kinetic energy focused onto the tip of a bullet that's travelling at over 2000 fps. Yeah, bolter rounds are supposed to penetrate flesh then explode, but that rarely happens.

I also thought of a unique mechanic for sniper and everything else, but it would be quite applicable to snipers: A sniper may reduce his BS to gain extra range. For every -1BS, his weapon gains +2" of range. So basically, the further away they are, the harder they are to hit. A BS 6 model could add 6" to the range of their weapon (representing their skill to hit targets that most normal people couldn't hit at such a range), or they could add 10", though BS1 isn't great odds to hit something.