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CT GAMER wrote:jy2 I respect your dedication to tourney play/mathhammer even if I can't understand the appeal of it personally, but man for someone that spends as much time as you do pondering lists and posting reps it is a shame a little more thought/creativity isnt put into the table/terrain setups.

That table is uber-boring...

Ratius wrote:Good rep Jy2 but I gotta echo CTG, more central + LOS blocking terrain on the table. I know its cliched and we all know it in a way but it can and ineveitably will dictate games, especially X army Vs Y.

Great pics + analysis btw as always.
Just imho a sub par terrain setup?
Hoping we're being cnstructive here.

I'd like to apologize to those who think the terrain is somewhat bland. You are right. My home terrain isn't exactly the most exciting. But let me explain why it is the way it is.

First of all, I'm not a great modeler. I'm more of a gamer first and foremost. I don't create my own terrain. I mainly buy them and use what I think is functional.

Secondly, I've literally got about 40k of 40k stuff. I've got 8 armies and models from other armies that I don't even really play. Many of these models need work, especially my necrons whom I am playing the most currently. I put more priority on my army models than I do on my terrain....and I still don't spend enough time on them. You will mainly find nice terrain in my reports when I go to my LGS for games. Otherwise, I freely admit that I don't really put in the time to work on my terrain at home. It is neither my strength nor my priority. Thus, while my games may not necessarily be the most aesthetically pleasing, what I do strive to work on is to provide an enjoyable battle and hopefully some insight into the tactics and strategies of the more competitive gamer.

Red Corsair wrote:This was an alright game. The wolf list was interesting, but I don't understand the need to bleed kill points. 3 wolf guard in a rhino....seriously? Hey opponent, I just gave you 6 of the softest kill points you will ever not have to try to earn lol. The terrain was kind of boring but I actually had less issue with this then others. My biggest question and concern is whether or not this was a self played game. It appears to be, which for me doesn't take away from the entertainment but definitely undermines the usefulness of the data.

Too bad the scythes died, that crap load of light vehicles was begging for a lesson I love picturing those death rays in action. Oh well, maybe next time.

That's just the nature of MSU armies. They bleed kill points, but it is a sacrifice they are willing to take in order to win the game. Most MSU armies can overcome their greater number of KP's in Annihilation missions simply by trying to table their opponent or at the very least, neuter their ability to create offense to the point that even a rhino or MSU unit takes some effort to kill.

The 3 wolf guard unit to some may seem like 2 freebie KP's, but they are designed that way with a purpose. Yes, their purpose is to quickly destroy a tank and then die easily. Take, for example, the 3 WG unit goes up against a 10-man tact squad. Tacticals destroy their rhino. WG then retaliates and destroy the tactical rhino. Tact squad then shoots or assaults the WG unit and easily kill them. Now they are left in the open so that the SW army can focus their formidable firepower to wipe out that tact squad. Now you've just traded a 64pt WG unit for a 170+ pt tactical unit. While they've killed the same number of Kill Points, marines have only killed off maybe 5% of the SW army while SW have killed about 10% of the SM army. This is why MSU armies are able to still win in Annihilation despite their extremely high number of KP's.

In the future I may swap out my doom scythes for annihilation barges and other stuff just to see how differently my MTO crons will play then.

Red Corsair wrote:
I understand the last remark but I personally disagree that the tricks would not exist in competition. Competition aside, players have strategies in their heads and snap decisions. This is why we play, you capitalize on their mistakes. Knowing what exactly both sides WILL do rathr then might definitely does impact the game. It is not possible to play an unbiased game against yourself. Again I really don't think it's that big of a deal but you should note it as a disclaimer because it isn't fair to the person whos list your trying to refute not to. Again I think you made fair decisions as best as any one can while playing themselves but we are all flawed being humans and not necrons or marines

Very true. My thinking was just a generalization of how some of the good generals are. They are usually prepared for most threats through studying other armies and from their own personal experiences as well. Your view is equally valid as well. There are probably just as many generals who really aren't all that familiar with their opponent's armies as well.

But there is another reason why I decided to play the game against myself as well. If I had gotten someone else to play it....someone not as knowledgeable or experienced as me to play it....then the proponents of MSU can say "well, the credibility of the game is undermined because the SW player played like an idiot and got his a$$ whooped because he really didn't know how to play the army." So it really is a double-edged sword. You play it yourself and people can claim you already knew what the other side was going to do. You get someone else to play it and people can claim that you didn't get someone qualified enough to play the army. In this case, I felt that it was more important to represent someone who really understood how MSU worked and who knew what he was doing.

Red Corsair wrote:
I agree with your assessment that wraiths are good, and necrons can be CC oriented. Whoever was telling you they were crap is full of crap themselves. I mean if that was their idea of a competitive marine list they don't understand the game. Most events use KP, that list was bleeding unnecessary KP's hard. Was the list old? Like pre Necron old?

I like your list a lot, can't wait for that Necron flyer kit. I still think you can lose one solar pulse, but maybe you are keeping it now for last turn in objective scenarios?

People just have different philosophies on how to play the game. I don't really want to get into these philosophies too much because he won't be able to speak here on his own behalf. Suffice it to say that he believes the most competitive armies in 40K are shooty MSU and that assault crons are just not a viable build. Me? I think he's been drinking too much of his own Kool-aid, but that's all I'm really going to say about that.

Yeah, definitely going to get some of those scythes when they come out. I'm still on the fence about the 2nd Solar Pulse. I may just drop it permanently in my future MTO builds.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

skoffs wrote:Hey jy2, you doing a post game analysis for this batrep, too?
(those are my favorite parts)

Most definitely yes...but it'll have to be tomorrow. I may even work on my mini-wraith tactica then as well.

Tomb King wrote:
I actually like army fluff so I was already going to buy all the different army books and since I was buying the army books I came up with the idea of trying just about every army out for myself. I have played/owned every army except orks so I could find their strengths and their weaknesses and what a player playing that army wants to happen vs not want to happen. I didn't buy orks because imho they dont require tactics just move models and roll.

Basic gist here is I concur with the above statement as it is how I have gotten good at beating those tough armies out there... practice and knowing your enemy. Knowing is half the battle.

I really feel that most of the great generals - the players who consistently do well and place at tournaments - have a better than average knowledge of their opponent's armies. That is because many of these great players are "students of the game". They study other armies, they play other armies as well as their normal tournament armies and mostly, they've played against a lot of these other armies. Yes, these players can get "tricked" or even outplayed by others (like, for instance, the first time an IG player plays against Immotekh Tremorcron Scarab-farm necrons), but that usually isn't very often and they are usually not fooled more than once.

SabrX wrote:Congrats jy2.

MSU weakness is Annihilation. Normally they overcome it with superior firepower, but your Necrons were too resilient.

The way I see it, SW player realized it was inevitable that they would lose out in Annihlation mission. Rather than weakening army's overall combat effectiveness by withholding small unit, SW player cut his loses and committed everything in hopes of either wiping out Necrons or obliterating enough units to achieve dominance over objectives. None of them played out because jy2's Necrons are highly resilient.

You hit the nail right on the head. It's almost a lost cause to play KP-denial with MSU armies. Just go out there and do what they do best....just shoot the living hell out of the opponent.

I enjoyed the batrep but the results were telling knowing whose type of army you were emulating.

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Necrons:
I'm pretty sure that assault necrons can compete, but honestly, I had no idea how this game was going to end. It started off with Space Wolves rolling well and the crons rolling poorly. It then ended with Necrons rolling well and wolves rolling more like average. Despite losing a huge portion of my offense initially, necrons do have the resiliency to stick it out if you have the patience (and it did help that wraiths were rolling well with their saves when it counted).

My strategy, as usual with my MTO necrons, was to bumrush the SW army and try to lock them inside their own deployment zone. And for the most part, it worked. He was forced to disembark from his vehicles to deal with my wraiths. Once he assaulted them, he was "stuck" with his scoring units locked in combat. This made it hard for him to even go after the objectives part of the missions. That had been my plan all along - to kill off his troops or to incapacitate them (i.e. by locking them up in combat so that they can't go for objectives). Unfortunately for the wolves, they had no choice but to try to wipe out my wraiths. That is just how they operate. Focus-fire on the biggest threats until you wipe them out. Fortunately for my crons, they were not able to do that.

This game, I have to give a lot of the credit to my "secondary offense" - the spyders and scarabs. They were highly effective this game and their contributions were arguably just as great as the wraiths. They also helped to lock down the opponent's army and to secure the entire right flank, killing off 2 units of long fangs, the Rune Priest, several infantry squads and numerous vehicles. They just reaffirm to me how important and efficient a (mini) scarab farm could be and is in a necron army. They were just absolutely brilliant in this game. I feel that you cannot go wrong by adding them into almost any necron list.

Lance-tek shooting also contributed to this game, blowing up 2 land speeders and incapacitating several rhinos. They were hot initially but cooled down towards the end. Still, my decision to add more lance-teks to my army proved to be a wise one.

Finally, I would say that the wraiths were the stars in this game. Not necessarily by how much they killed, but also by how much they were able to take for the army. They absorbed almost any entire MSU army's shooting and still endured to be be a credible threat! They bought some time for my secondary wave of scarabs and spyders to come in and help clean up. They also did their share of damage to the SW transports and troops. I believe that had they fallen on Turn 2, my necrons would have also fallen.

In short, I'm not really surprised by the performance of my MTO necrons. What did surprise me, however, is their comeback after the disastrous Turn 1. Honestly, I had doubts after the first turn that necrons could take this game with what was essentially a 1570pt army against a 2K one. But they responded and did me proud.


Space Wolves:
I think MSU is definitely a viable build. If you can stomach its somewhat bland repetitiveness and inherent weakness in Annihilation, you'll find that a MSU build is actually a pretty effective and competitive army. Is it for everyone? Definitely not. Most people will find it "boring" and perhaps even "inflexible" due to lack of assault elements and/or variety. However, the underlying principles and strategy of an MSU army is actually very sound - to overwhelm your opponent with numbers. I myself incorporate a lot of the principles of MSU into many of my armies.

This SW build plays much differently than that of, say, MSU missile-spam Space Wolves. It emphasizes more on mobilizing your forces instead of just sitting and shooting as is normal with razor-spam/long fang-spam SW. While they don't have quite the alpha strike capabilities of missile-wolves, this type of army is more focused on getting into positions to both hurt the enemy as well as getting into advantageous positions. In a nutshell, it plays more like a Sisters of Battle army.

In this game, SW played it like they should have. They went after the fast and dangerous targets first - the doom scythes and command barges - and downed them rather successfully. Then they advanced their rhino as they should and blocked off my wraiths. But not only did they block them off, they offered up the rhinos as "bait" to lure my wraiths towards their counter-attack. My wraiths had no choice but to assault them, thus taking the "bait". Finally, SW prepared for the counter-attack and focused their entire army on my wraiths. I was just fortunate to survive, but had I rolled more average, my wraiths would probably not have survived his shooting and then assault thereafter. So, despite giving up a huge KP disadvantage, if the SW could have finished off my wraiths, then they could have dominated this game. That's just how MSU armies operate, and in the eyes of a knowledgeable general, there really isn't any surprise in this game. Both armies just did what they normally would have done in any game.

In closing, I didn't do this battle to show whether MSU armies are good or not. In my mind, I know they are good (though somewhat "boring" at times). Rather, what I had hoped to show was that non-shooty necrons, or assault crons to some, can be a viable, competitive build. They are not that common now as many are still experimenting with the new crons, but give them some time (say, 6 months from now) and you will start seeing more hybrid and assault necron armies start to place more often in competitive play. They definitely have the tools to do so.

*thumbs up*
As it's been said a hundred times before, great stuff, man. As soon as those models for the Doom Croissant come out next month, I think I'm going to try taking a stab at this list for a tournament.

...
now, about that Wraith Tactica...

^Doom croissant lol, very tastey!

Great analysis as always J!

I honestly think you would be seeing more Crons at tournies by now if it weren't for the popularity of Grey Knights, it's a shame that they are showing up in such droves. Maybe the release of wave two is going to change that. Leave it to GW to release a book with out the best units in it LOL!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skoffs wrote:
now, about that Wraith Tactica...

He kind of showed you how to beat the this game. Like he said, he rolled above average. Volume fire is how you take those fellas down, once their numbers have dropped they are much less potent on the charge. If they are hot with their saves there is not much you can do other then burn the other guys dice lol.

What is your preferred SW build? I seem to remember you playing MSU Space Wolves before you started playing GK. Only differences I can remember are 2+ Rune Priests and Typhoons. If you started playing them again what kind of additions/subtractions would you make to account for the new codexes. Thanks for the report. I was waiting for this one... I'd like to see your MTO list go up against Reece's Bjorn Wolves too. I think you would struggle more against the increased missile fire. They really are the bane of your Wraiths.

skoffs wrote:*thumbs up*
As it's been said a hundred times before, great stuff, man. As soon as those models for the Doom Croissant come out next month, I think I'm going to try taking a stab at this list for a tournament.

...
now, about that Wraith Tactica...

It will take a little time. I want to write a good tactica about wraiths and it's going to take some time. I may even publish it on an entirely different thread (in the tactica forum) and if I do, I will link this report to it.

Or I may just leave the tactica here. Haven't decided yet....

Red Corsair wrote:^Doom croissant lol, very tastey!

Great analysis as always J!

I honestly think you would be seeing more Crons at tournies by now if it weren't for the popularity of Grey Knights, it's a shame that they are showing up in such droves. Maybe the release of wave two is going to change that. Leave it to GW to release a book with out the best units in it LOL!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skoffs wrote:
now, about that Wraith Tactica...

He kind of showed you how to beat the this game. Like he said, he rolled above average. Volume fire is how you take those fellas down, once their numbers have dropped they are much less potent on the charge. If they are hot with their saves there is not much you can do other then burn the other guys dice lol.

I think after Adepticon, a lot of the good players are going to feel somewhat guilty for playing them and will start running other armies in tournament play (except for the good players who have always been running GK's ever since they were daemonhunters ).

You'll probably see a little less GK players in future tournaments, at least from the really good players. That's my hunch.

I see necrons as a viable alternative for some of these players to turn to. They are new, they are fun and they are quite good. And now that ultra-cool (model-wise) units like the spyders and wraiths are out, I think you're going to see many people start running some form of wraithwing due to the exposure they are getting from the net (of which I am partially to blame ).

As for the tactica, you are right. The best way to take down wraiths is with volume-of-fire. And terminator-builds and grey knights are 2 of the best armies to take on wraiths due to their volume-of-insta-killing-fire. But all that in good time....I'm going to take my time with this tactica to make sure that it is top-notch material.

Living Still wrote:What is your preferred SW build? I seem to remember you playing MSU Space Wolves before you started playing GK. Only differences I can remember are 2+ Rune Priests and Typhoons. If you started playing them again what kind of additions/subtractions would you make to account for the new codexes. Thanks for the report. I was waiting for this one... I'd like to see your MTO list go up against Reece's Bjorn Wolves too. I think you would struggle more against the increased missile fire. They really are the bane of your Wraiths.

Whoa, it's cool to know that some people have been following my reports since my Space Wolves days. I don't actually run a MSU SW build, though I do run a very shooty SW build. I normally ran something like this back then:


Rune Priest Blackheart - Chooser, Meltabombs, Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning - 115
Rune Priest Loki - Chooser, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane - 110
Rune Priest Goldmoon - Jaws, Either Tempest's Wrath, Stormcaller or Hurricane - 100

Rifleman Dread - 125
Rifleman Dread - 125
3x Wolf Guard - 3x Combi-meltas, 3x Power Fist - 129

8x Grey Hunters - Melta, Mark of the Wulfen, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard, Rhino - 200
8x Grey Hunters - Melta, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard, Rhino - 185
8x Grey Hunters - Melta, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard, Rhino - 185
5x Grey Hunters - Flamer, Lazorback - 150

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
Vindicator - 115

Total - 1999


Missile wolves definitely are tough to play against with my crons. I actually did play against Reece's Bjorn Wolves (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424563.page), though at that time I didn't run my MTO crons. Instead, I ran a shooty pure wraithwing list instead (with 18 wraiths, lance-teks and annihilation barges).

I may play Reece again in the near future. There's some new necron models I'm planning to get and I'd rather give them the business, so there's a good chance I'll play him when I go to his store. Perhaps my crons versus his Top-8 Adepticon footdar army? That'll probably be a good fight.

Fantastic battle report.
Was a bitmbummed out that it was against yourself... Imo this decreases the value of tactical choices from the getgo.
But themreportnas always was done very well.

One thing, i thought spyders could only spawn scarabs into units that are unengaged.

On another note, i agree whole heartedly that combaty crons can do very well, its how one of my good friends and excellent generals plays.

Iago wrote:Fantastic battle report.
Was a bitmbummed out that it was against yourself... Imo this decreases the value of tactical choices from the getgo.
But themreportnas always was done very well.

One thing, i thought spyders could only spawn scarabs into units that are unengaged.

On another note, i agree whole heartedly that combaty crons can do very well, its how one of my good friends and excellent generals plays.

You can increase the number of any Scarb unit within 6". The Codex makes no distinction between engaged or unengaged.

and the faq qualifies that engaged scarabs can be reinforced

Q: Can Canoptek Spyders add models to a unit of Canoptek Scarabs that is locked in combat? (p46)
A: Yes.

Also, great report jy2, and I can't wait for you to get that tactica up, I'm trying multiple things against my brother's wraiths, but focussing most of my army's fire at them and hoping they die isn't having the best outcome, well, not a consistent outcome anyway.

I stand corrected. Thats awesome.

gpfunk wrote:

jy2 wrote:That SW list plays very much like a Sisters of Battle list, only without the assault-oriented battle conclaves. It's definitely a very different list from your typical missile-spam SW, but I feel that it has its own strengths as well.

BTW, this list was created by He-who-must-not-be-named-here-on-Dakka-because-he-is-no-longer-here-on-Dakka.


PS - I should finish the report tonight, but for now, I'm off to go play Apoc.

Remember to take pictures!

Your wish is my command.

My Chaos army:


The Blood Angel - over 130 infantry models!



Unfortunately, I am not going to do a battle report on this game because it didn't even last 3 turns. I hit his lines Turn 3 with my entire army and it was game over by then.

Iago wrote:Fantastic battle report.
Was a bitmbummed out that it was against yourself... Imo this decreases the value of tactical choices from the getgo.
But themreportnas always was done very well.

One thing, i thought spyders could only spawn scarabs into units that are unengaged.

On another note, i agree whole heartedly that combaty crons can do very well, its how one of my good friends and excellent generals plays.

In this case, I felt it more important to represent an experienced MSU Space Wolf general than to get someone to play it who wasn't really qualified. Honestly, I'd rather hear people say that I played against myself than to say I was clubbing a baby seal in what was supposed to represent a competitive game.

There are 2 things in the necron codex (actually, there may probably more) that goes against normal convention. One is that spyders can spawn scarabs into combat if the scarabs were already locked in combat. The second is that the command barge can even sweep attack units locked in combat.

motyak wrote:and the faq qualifies that engaged scarabs can be reinforced

Q: Can Canoptek Spyders add models to a unit of Canoptek Scarabs that is locked in combat? (p46)
A: Yes.

Also, great report jy2, and I can't wait for you to get that tactica up, I'm trying multiple things against my brother's wraiths, but focussing most of my army's fire at them and hoping they die isn't having the best outcome, well, not a consistent outcome anyway.

Thanks. My tactica will take a little longer to come out. First, I want to try out a test game between a wraithwing build and what may be one of their tougher foes....infantry grey knights with paladins!

jy2 wrote:

skoffs wrote:now, about that Wraith Tactica...

Red Corsair wrote:He kind of showed you how to beat the this game. Like he said, he rolled above average. Volume fire is how you take those fellas down, once their numbers have dropped they are much less potent on the charge. If they are hot with their saves there is not much you can do other then burn the other guys dice lol.

As for the tactica, you are right. The best way to take down wraiths is with volume-of-fire. And terminator-builds and grey knights are 2 of the best armies to take on wraiths due to their volume-of-insta-killing-fire.

My concern is that the Wraiths beat you either way. If you sink fire into them, there are two outcomes:

1) They die, but you've invested the bulk of your army against a single threat and you get overwhelmed by all the bits you had to ignore to fight the Wraiths.
2) They don't die and now you've wasted a turn.

So you can choose between bad and worse. On top of that, the actual volume of fire that you'd need to pour into them is pretty staggering. It's expected that you'd need 9 S4/BS4 shots and 6.75 S5/BS4 shots per wound.

As a Sisters of Battle player I'm usually not too concerned about small units of tough multi-wound models, but the 3++ on Wraiths is a mother. My go-to anti-heavy unit of Dominions with 4 meltaguns, a combi-Plasma, and 5 bolters (all twin-linked) only expects to yield 2 regular wounds and one instant-death. So with wound allocation, I've taken out a single Wraith.

Have I mentioned that I'm afraid of Wraiths?

You are absolutely correct. Wraiths are dangerous, but they are not the only ones. That is why I feel that my MTO necrons are so strong. All the threats are equally dangerous. So while the opponent is spending his resources trying to take out the wraiths, the rest of my army will still be able to do a lot of damage. And if you spend the resources to deal with my other threats, wraiths can wreak pure havoc as demonstrated in this game. One thing people often under-estimate is that it is not just the unit they have to be concerned about, in a well-designed necron list, it is the entire army that they have to worry about.

BTW, before I do the tactica, there's a couple of things I want to test out. That's right, one more home-game battle report before the tactica. This time, it'll be a pure wraithwing build with some tremorcrons against grey knights.

The lists:

2K Necrons
Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
2x Tremor-teks, 1x Lance-tek w/Pulse

C'tan - WW, Gaze of Death

3x5 Warriors

6x Wraiths - 4x Whips, 1x Caster
6x Wraiths - 4x Whips, 1x Caster
6x Wraiths - 4x Whips

Annhiliation Barge


vs


2K Grey Knights
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades

5x Paladins - 2x Psycannon, Banner, Warding Stave, 2x Hammers

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer

10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave

2x Psyfleman Dreads


Basically, this will be a test game for my upcoming Wraith Tactica. It basically pits my wraithwing against 3 of their greatest weaknesses - volume-of-fire, GK Nemesis Force weapons (and psyflemans) and 2+ paladins.

jy2 wrote:You are absolutely correct. Wraiths are dangerous, but they are not the only ones. That is why I feel that my MTO necrons are so strong. All the threats are equally dangerous. So while the opponent is spending his resources trying to take out the wraiths, the rest of my army will still be able to do a lot of damage. And if you spend the resources to deal with my other threats, wraiths can wreak pure havoc as demonstrated in this game. One thing people often under-estimate is that it is not just the unit they have to be concerned about, in a well-designed necron list, it is the entire army that they have to worry about.

BTW, before I do the tactica, there's a couple of things I want to test out. That's right, one more home-game battle report before the tactica. This time, it'll be a pure wraithwing build with some tremorcrons against grey knights.

The lists:

2K Necrons
Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
2x Tremor-teks, 1x Lance-tek w/Pulse

C'tan - WW, Gaze of Death

3x5 Warriors

6x Wraiths - 4x Whips, 1x Caster
6x Wraiths - 4x Whips, 1x Caster
6x Wraiths - 4x Whips

Annhiliation Barge


vs


2K Grey Knights
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades

5x Paladins - 2x Psycannon, Banner, Warding Stave, 2x Hammers

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer

10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave

2x Psyfleman Dreads


Basically, this will be a test game for my upcoming Wraith Tactica. It basically pits my wraithwing against 3 of their greatest weaknesses - volume-of-fire, GK Nemesis Force weapons (and psyflemans) and 2+ paladins.

Why gaze of death?? Its 50pts can only be used in combat and only ever regenerates one wound per use.

Not wishing to steal your thunder or anything jy2 but I have been working on a counter Wraith tactica for the last couple of days. Just put it up now. Basic stuff but hopefully useful to players of all ranges.

Tomb King wrote:
Why gaze of death?? Its 50pts can only be used in combat and only ever regenerates one wound per use.

Purely for experimental purposes. In my test games, sometimes I run things I normally don't run at all. This is the time for me to try some stuff out. Like using my tremorcrons as opposed to my lance-teks in my pure wraithwing build. Or taking Gaze instead of Lord of Fire that I usually take.

You won't find Gaze in my real TAC necron list. What you'll find is 1 more annihilation barge, 1 more scoring unit and probably a bunch of lance-teks instead.

Lukus83 wrote:Not wishing to steal your thunder or anything jy2 but I have been working on a counter Wraith tactica for the last couple of days. Just put it up now. Basic stuff but hopefully useful to players of all ranges.

No worries. Then I will just contribute to your tactica instead.

BTW, here's a link to Lukus' Anti-wraith Tactica: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/448187.page

Gaze of Death could be obscenely useful against horde armies. S3 can't wound T7, and S4 wounds T7 on sixes. After all blows have been struck, and assuming the C'tan isn't dead, several models having to take S3 hits with no armor saves allowed is not a bad thing.

There's no doubt that Gaze of Death can be good. The million-dollar question is, can the C'tan make it into combat without getting shot to hell to use his 50pt power? That's the gamble you are taking with this power.

I have had good success with a C'tan in a couple of games. A couple turns of Night Fight really helps a lot.

Hey guys, we're having a fairly amusing "conversation" over at YTTH - http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/05/wraiths-again/#comment-137878

I gave up on surfing there a year or so ago. The noise versus signal just got way too high. Looks like you got a whole pile of the same.

Wraiths are good.... My issue is they are basically a very good tarpit that relies heavily on you rolling well for saves. They work awesome against normal troopers, but anything more resiliant with high str weapons (I.e. twc) can work them over. Nightfighting helps, but I just feel they aren't needed... Honestly if you roll any bit bad with them against things like sw longfang spam and they get dusted quickly.

I enjoy lurking on their site. It's a bit caustic, but as long as it's not directed towards me personally, neh. You have a bit more patience than I do though, I'd be like, "that's it! where do you live!"

When they're saying Wraiths aren't the best choice in their slot, they're referring to Scarabs, I assume? I can't believe they mean Tomb Blades, but that's the only unit there matching their MSU/mech criteria.

It is hard to kill moving transports with melee dudes. And I don't think lanceteks fit the bill either. CCB's, yeah baby, but limited slots. AB's, light armor only. I noticed last time I browsed their lists that they really like Night Scythes.

jy2 wrote:Hey guys, we're having a fairly amusing "conversation" over at YTTH - http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/05/wraiths-again/#comment-137878

Seems to me like a board full of arse's. They quickly shift to petty insults and have ego's that are suffocating me by just reading the text they call responses. Really makes me wanna take Crons to the my next GT and lay waste literally slaughter everything especially space wolves. My advice dont waste anymore time on them and just leave them to their narrow sided opinions.

-666- wrote:I have had good success with a C'tan in a couple of games. A couple turns of Night Fight really helps a lot.

Yeah, that helps. So will having more immediate threats for the opponent to deal with.

pretre wrote:I gave up on surfing there a year or so ago. The noise versus signal just got way too high. Looks like you got a whole pile of the same.

They have a wealth of knowledge and I think the contributions they provide to the gaming community on the whole is positive. However, their rather caustic delivery sometimes as well as their unwillingness to have an open ear tends to be annoying at times.

Zid wrote:Wraiths are good.... My issue is they are basically a very good tarpit that relies heavily on you rolling well for saves. They work awesome against normal troopers, but anything more resiliant with high str weapons (I.e. twc) can work them over. Nightfighting helps, but I just feel they aren't needed... Honestly if you roll any bit bad with them against things like sw longfang spam and they get dusted quickly.

The thing people need to understand about wraiths is that they are NOT an uber assaulty unit. Try using them to overcome enemy assault units through brute force and you will not win out in many cases. They do need the support of the rest of the army against some units. However, the benefits that they contribute to the army are enormous. They help to draw heavy weapon fire that would otherwise wreck. They can clean up most regular infantry units, and they will protect the army from enemy heavy-hitters/uber units. They can actually wreck things if left unchecked. Finally, they help to control the tempo of the game by controlling the Movement phase. Yes, some armies may have the ability to wipe them out, but look at where those armies are position-wise at the end of the game. If you are playing those wraiths correctly, most armies will be out of position relative to objectives compared to the necron forces who will be camped on their objectives.

Yeah, wraiths aren't invincible. They are durable, but they can definitely be killed. The thing is, it's not you versus the wraiths. It's you versus the necron army.

BTW, it's kinda funny. At the other thread, one person actually suggested that wraiths need Eternal Warrior and Reanimation Protocols to be any good. Lol.

@jy2: I agree and see your point of view. Its just many people are of the mindset that wraiths are the necron uber unit,which I feel is far from true. The best way to deal with them is the same way you deal with other units, effectuve management of resources and taking care of things one at a time.

I feel any good list follows a simular mindset to your mto crons; everythings a threat in its own right, you just try and overwhelm your opponent. Barges, wraiths, stalkers, and lords are all great units, but everything can be beaten by any other army, which many peeps don't seem to realize.

There is an advantage to that sort of site. It has one sort of noise, but it weeds out another sort of noise. (Also when you go on a rant you can fully type out "wtf", which is viscerally satisfying.) What I need, though, is some validation of their assertions. I've *seen* things work that they're dismissive of. (Other things than Wraiths, ie, general meta approach elements.) I wonder if some of their group aren't tournament regulars I could meet and chat with? (Going to the San Antonio Alamo GT in a couple weeks.)

@ jy2

I hope you will post your Wraith tactica in the Tactics forum - I think you'll reach more people there and you can post a link here.

I don't know why you're wasting your time over at the blue koolaid site. It's not like they will change their mind any time soon and if they do then it will be presented as their idea(s). I think you'll be better served using time and energy more fruitfully Iike places here. : )

Keep up the good work.

Randall Turner wrote:I enjoy lurking on their site. It's a bit caustic, but as long as it's not directed towards me personally, neh. You have a bit more patience than I do though, I'd be like, "that's it! where do you live!"

When they're saying Wraiths aren't the best choice in their slot, they're referring to Scarabs, I assume? I can't believe they mean Tomb Blades, but that's the only unit there matching their MSU/mech criteria.

It is hard to kill moving transports with melee dudes. And I don't think lanceteks fit the bill either. CCB's, yeah baby, but limited slots. AB's, light armor only. I noticed last time I browsed their lists that they really like Night Scythes.

They (the people who frequent the site and their philosophy) do have some good info and insight, but they also tend to get nasty against people with a different viewpoint from them. To many of the people there, their "way" is absolutely the "right way". It's either their "way" or the highway. That's what really irks me to no end. "Have you even played against a wraithwing build before?" "No, don't need to, but the fact that they are an assault unit in a shooting game must mean that they suck."

I believe they are referring to scarabs as the "best" choice, but really, they tend to emphasize mech and shooting. Thus, the ideal MSU necron list would be a bunch of troops in Night Scythes. Command barges, annihilation barges and lance-teks are the only other "good" options. From their perspective, scarabs are a viable (if not ideal option) though wraiths suck.

Tomb King wrote:

jy2 wrote:Hey guys, we're having a fairly amusing "conversation" over at YTTH - http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/05/wraiths-again/#comment-137878

Seems to me like a board full of arse's. They quickly shift to petty insults and have ego's that are suffocating me by just reading the text they call responses. Really makes me wanna take Crons to the my next GT and lay waste literally slaughter everything especially space wolves. My advice dont waste anymore time on them and just leave them to their narrow sided opinions.

Insults and ego's I really don't care about because I can match them in that department. I can give as good as I can take.

What pisses me off is that they have the gall to call me close-minded just because I think the game of 40k can be won by more than just a pure shooty army!?! You want to shut me up? Show me that I'm wrong. Show me even 1 MSU army that has won a GT or similar event. And for every such army you show me, I will show you an army such as Eric's Wraithwing (won SVDM GT), Norbu's scarab-farm (Indy GT), Alex Fennell's hybrid tremorcrons (Templecon, I believe) and any of DashofPepper's tournament ork battles or Nick's tyranids/daemons who have won many tournaments....all with non-MSU, assault-oriented armies.

Zid wrote:@jy2: I agree and see your point of view. Its just many people are of the mindset that wraiths are the necron uber unit,which I feel is far from true. The best way to deal with them is the same way you deal with other units, effectuve management of resources and taking care of things one at a time.

I feel any good list follows a simular mindset to your mto crons; everythings a threat in its own right, you just try and overwhelm your opponent. Barges, wraiths, stalkers, and lords are all great units, but everything can be beaten by any other army, which many peeps don't seem to realize.

Absolutely true on both observations. Wraiths are durable, but they are not a magic bullet that will automatically win games for you. They are just another scalpel in a toolbox full of sharp tools. And MTO doesn't just apply to my necrons, though they do happen to do it quite well. I think the concept of MTO can be applied to almost any army out there.