Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Relapse wrote:What about GW putting rules cards in the boxes and blisters like PP does?
That would take care of those who didn't catch the latest WD, and they could still sell codexes like PP.

the problem becomes with multi-purpose units. IG squad is the clearest example. You'd need to include cards for Senior command, Junior command, Veterans, Penal legion, Regulars and whiteshields, maybe even storm troopers. The same stock model can be used any which way in an army. It's not a realistic solution for GW to switch that way. GW's game is not built well to benefit from stat cards.

I would prefer it if GW sold binder-format codices, with all of the sheets laminated. That way they can update on the go, and release updated versions along with the update sheets/packages. The rules are definately cumbersome enough to benefit from just such a system which is used in every updating editions that lawyers use.

@ Mastiff:
you made my night mate.

I would prefer it if GW gives free, solid rules. But... oh well.

Right up front - I think GW should eventually put the flyer rules on their website as a free .pdf, and keep charging for their iPad version as it has (presumably) extra dohickies. This will allow everyone to buy and play with GWs plastic toys.

SoB? Probably worth a .pdf at some stage, but lets face it - they're currently such a woefully supported army that new players aren't going to be looking for them until they finally compile a printed codex, so no enormous problem there.

But here's the thing. I don't think they should release this stuff for free right away. Remember Spearhead? Remember the BA codex? The "White Dwarf exclusives" that almost instantly ended up as .pdfs on the GW website? Weren't really all that exclusive, were they.

I've been a subscriber for years. And for years, People On The Internet have decried that it's the worst magazine in existence, that it's just a catalogue etc. I still enjoy flicking through it. Guess that makes me an idiot by the standards of The Internet People, right?

Well, now I have something you don't. Because you decided that the price was wrong for you, and that you'd prefer to pay a couple of quid every now and then. And it looks like it'll stay as something you don't have for a while, though hopefully not forever.

Tough.

You moan about how bad WD is, and that people shouldn't subscribe, and that it doesn't have rules in it. Then it changes, so you moan about that instead.

Tough.

Get a subscription. If more people subscribe now that they've started putting rules in, maybe they'll put more rules in since it clearly works as a marketing tool.

Or, keep moaning on the internet. Go ahead.

If all this makes me a troll, so be it, but remember that I can regenerate from everything but fire and spew acidic vomit on you at will.

You're not a troll, just expression your opinion as one should from time to time. The main difference I guess is just how you go about it.

pretre wrote:Shelf is different than mail/web order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, you might want to pick up those shelf issues and eBay them.

Indeed it is, but in a month or so those magazines will be returned to GW and become mail order.

As for ebay, I am beginning to suspect that talking up ebay prices is what this thread is about - given that we are talking about freely available information.

Graphite wrote:But here's the thing. I don't think they should release this stuff for free right away. Remember Spearhead? Remember the BA codex? The "White Dwarf exclusives" that almost instantly ended up as .pdfs on the GW website? Weren't really all that exclusive, were they.

Were they actually advertised as White Dwarf Exclusives?

You moan about how bad WD is, and that people shouldn't subscribe, and that it doesn't have rules in it. Then it changes, so you moan about that instead.

Actually, I don't recall ever complaining about how bad White Dwarf is. When it reached a point where I realised that I wasn't really doing anything more than flicking through it and then putting it on a shelf (which came some time after GW announced that they would no longer be printing rules supplements in it) I just stopped buying it.

I'm most certainly not complaining about them actually returning to including useful content in the magazine. Just about them springing it out unannounced, and not printing enough of them to satisfy the demand.

Having the rules a new model only available in a publication that is no longer in print is lunacy.


Although regardless of how many rules they print in it, I'm unlikely to seriously consider a subscription until they seriously reconsider their policy of shipping White Dwarf so that it reaches subscribers after the street date.

Maybe the reason those issues are so hard to find/sold out IS time travel! They've come back to buy out all the good WDs.

[/tinfoilhat]

I've got a tight budget. I thought about buying the WD for the rules, but was on the fence about the storm talon anyway, and wanted to see how the core rules for flyers was going to affect them before dropping the cash on one. I have the luxury, as a SM player, that I'll probably get a new codex at the start of the edition, which should have the rules baked in. Now that I've seen the 6th ed rules, the talon has been bumped to the top of my need-to-buy list. I've seen the rules, but don't have an official copy. GW (or my FLGS) is missing out on selling me a model, as I don't have formal rules for it. Once I get published rules, GW will get my money.

AndrewC wrote:So will we then see a refusal to play with models with WD rules only?

I'm thinking about doing it just out of spite now.

insaniak wrote:Having the rules a new model only available in a publication that is no longer in print is lunacy.

But GW is a model company! They exist only to make and sell models! Stop acting like you're entitled to rules for everything, you shouldn't be buying the models with the sole intention of being able to use them in games!

I can see some sense in not making the rules available at first, in order to make sure that the relevant White Dwarf has a chance to sell.
The iPad digital copy is another valid solution, as it's priced individually - but it's implemented badly, as it only opens the option to a limited portion of the playerbase.
In my eyes there is no issue with whether or not the rules should be free - since we do already pay for the rulebooks and codexes, a nominal sum would be fine.

The issue here is the continued non-availability of these rules to a majority of the playerbase. Time enough has passed for our two main examples to be released on a wider basis - that issue of White Dwarf is no longer stocked in retail, and as mentioned the iPad release alone is not available to enough of the playerbase. The Sisters of Battle rules are in an even worse state, as the White Dwarf is presumably completely out of print even for back-orders and there is NO digital copy.

There is precedent for this in the past, with .pdf versions of codexes, which are available to a large majority of the playerbase (true there will be a minority without Internet access but trying to cater for these smaller numbers would be insanity from a business sensibility). The .pdf version could be released for a price, which would not only protect the iPad sales but would actually allow for MORE sales to those players without iPads.

Dracos - the argument to subscribe to White Dwarf purely for the sake of these rules is ridiculous for a number of reasons. One, you're still not guaranteed to receive a copy and you still have no alternative if that proves to be the case. Two, it is bad business sense for the rules not to be available in some form after the White Dwarf sales as it prevents further sales of the models in question. Three, the cost of a subscription is far too much to ask for access to these rules. I liken it to making it so that you can only get a yellow paint pot if you buy a set of 20 (and the pricing of that example isn't too far off, either).

"to say they are not available is just false, they are just not available in the medium or payment method you desire."

Remember that we are GW's customers, they have a responsibility to make the rules for their models available (whether free or not) if they want us to buy them for gaming with. Would you buy yourself a Sisters of Battle army if you couldn't get hold of the rules? It's the same story here. People who want to use the new flyers but can't get the rules without forking out for a subscription they don't want will be put off from buying them at all. I know I am.

It's all a ploy by GW legal department to promote piracy of said rules so they can stay employed sending cease and desist letters.

On a more serious note, what is the issue number with the flyers rules ? I'll never track them down if I don't at least know the issue number.

Personally I feel that making new rules available only for a short period of time in print or via an expensive gadget is counter intuitive to the we write "rules to sell models" stance.

Should they be available as a legal PDF? I believe so.

Should they charge for this PDF? If they want, it is their creative product after all. Personal I think the company would benefit from supplying all their rules as a free PDFs especially if they are trying to encourage us to buy an allied faction for our army's. Think of the good will it would generate and lets be honest we can all get them free without much effort anyway. I doubt the sale of codex and rulebooks make them that much money anyway.

Oh and for those that care, didn't buy and now want the WD with the flyer rules in, my local store has loads. They don't have them for sale on the online store but give them a call and I am sure they will take payment over the phone and post one out.

http://www.4tk.co.uk/store/

I'd just like to add on a bit here:

While it may feel good to get things off your chest by posting complaints about GW, it does not help your situation in any way.

GW does lots of things that people don't like. I don't like that I don't have access to the stormtalon rules, I didn't buy the WD with the rules in it either. It didn't sell out right away locally, it was still there a while after it came out but I didn't want to buy it. I don't like WD in general so I never buy it. But not buying it, and not subscribing to it is a choice I made. It has consequences that I have to live with. I can't say the possibility didn't exist for me to get it, because I had the option to subscribe (ya right) or just buy the one issue that had the couple pages I wanted. Now I have to wait for them to make it available in some other format or just live with not having it.

There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept. Not subscribing or buying was a personal choice and you have to live with it. There was an option, and you didn't take it.

The point is that you have to recognize that GW is a sovereign entity and they are marketing their products in a way they feel is best for them. That's right, they are not doing any of their players any favours.

I submit that the guys at GW making their marketing decisions literally do not care if you have the rules you want. They only care if they are selling enough copies of WD and the models. You could even argue (likely accurately) that they are harming themselves economically with their marketing.

GW certainly could make it easier to obtain, and even purchase WD back issues or articles found therein. They have chosen not to, presumably because they believe it will be the best choice for them. You are free (and encouraged!) to disagree with them on their decisions.

However, the only way you have a chance of getting your dislike of a GW practice corrected is by taking it up with GW. Complaining on the internet about this is useless.

poda_t wrote:

Relapse wrote:What about GW putting rules cards in the boxes and blisters like PP does?
That would take care of those who didn't catch the latest WD, and they could still sell codexes like PP.

the problem becomes with multi-purpose units. IG squad is the clearest example. You'd need to include cards for Senior command, Junior command, Veterans, Penal legion, Regulars and whiteshields, maybe even storm troopers. The same stock model can be used any which way in an army. It's not a realistic solution for GW to switch that way. GW's game is not built well to benefit from stat cards.

I would prefer it if GW sold binder-format codices, with all of the sheets laminated. That way they can update on the go, and release updated versions along with the update sheets/packages. The rules are definately cumbersome enough to benefit from just such a system which is used in every updating editions that lawyers use.

@ Mastiff:
you made my night mate.

Spartan puts multiple cards in their packs for units that can be configured in multiple ways and it seems to work well. In my mind, if GW can include extra bits in a kit that can be configured as different unit types, cards would be no problem.

I like your idea of the binder format, also.

Dracos wrote:There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept.

That's because this isn't an issue of personal responsibility.


GW are selling a game. Currently, they are selling a particular brand new model for which the rules are already out of print.

I don't have a 'personal responsibility' to buy GW's product, either the model or the rules. I can do so if I choose.... but there is no obligation for me to do so. If there is any 'responsibility' involved, it is GW's... they have a responsibility to adequately support the products they sell. By selling gaming models without rules to actually using them, they are arguably not supporting that product.

It's not up to the players to try psychically devine how GW are going to choose (or not) to release the rules for their models. We shouldn't feel obligated to go out and buy a particular publication for the single week that it will be available on the off-chance that GW will choose to not reprint a rules article from that publication anywhere else. It's GW's responsibility to communicate with their customers, and make it clear just when and where those rules will be available if they expect people to purchase the model.

Dracos wrote:However, the only way you have a chance of getting your dislike of a GW practice corrected is by taking it up with GW. Complaining on the internet about this is useless.

You make it sound like you can't do both. Complaining here doesn't mean that people aren't also taking up the issue with GW.

Dracos wrote:
There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept. Not subscribing or buying was a personal choice and you have to live with it. There was an option, and you didn't take it.

No, there's absolutely no personal responsibility.

When the White Dwarf came out, I couldn't field a Storm Talon in my army (Space Wolves). A couple of months later, they change their mind with the release of 6th edition. I can now field it as an ally. That was GW's decision to change the rules, not mine.

Not buying insurance is an action I'll take personal responsibility for. Not buying the rules for a model that I can't use is not.

Suggesting that we as customers need to execise our "personal responsibility" by purchasing every issue of White Dwarf if we want access to rules for models we may never buy, or give up the right to complain, is justifying extortion. They have useful rules, what, once every two years? "Personal responsibility" is not buying lottery tickets on the off-chance it could some day pay off the mortgage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

poda_t wrote:
@ Mastiff:
you made my night mate.

Mission accomplished

Mastiff wrote: "Personal responsibility" is not buying lottery tickets on the off-chance it could some day pay off the mortgage.

Hey... :(

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

yeah, but it's not exactly within dakka's policy to encourage violating laws. Copying things like that is one of them. And feebay is also always a risk too.... then let's not forget about the starving GW employees who we are cheating from dinner by not paying directly to GW

Sorry, but no. Ebay is totally on the side of the buyer, hands down. Ask any seller, they'll agree. First, you get ebay policies. THEN you get Paypal policies. You are VERY protected nowadays with buying on Ebay.

The starving GW employees? Again, no. They've already sold out of the White Dwarf that has the rules. They already sold out of the Sisters of Battle rules. Anyone that was entitled to a bonus from those sales has either A) Gotten them or B) Getting them. Could they have gotten a bigger bonus if they increased the production of that issue of the mag? Possibly. They may have lost whatever bonus they earned on the increased production of the next issue. Oh wait, what am I talking about, they don't get a bonus. Your last point means nothing, sorry friend.

Lormax wrote:

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

yeah, but it's not exactly within dakka's policy to encourage violating laws. Copying things like that is one of them. And feebay is also always a risk too.... then let's not forget about the starving GW employees who we are cheating from dinner by not paying directly to GW

Sorry, but no. Ebay is totally on the side of the buyer, hands down. Ask any seller, they'll agree. First, you get ebay policies. THEN you get Paypal policies. You are VERY protected nowadays with buying on Ebay.

The starving GW employees? Again, no. They've already sold out of the White Dwarf that has the rules. They already sold out of the Sisters of Battle rules. Anyone that was entitled to a bonus from those sales has either A) Gotten them or B) Getting them. Could they have gotten a bigger bonus if they increased the production of that issue of the mag? Possibly. They may have lost whatever bonus they earned on the increased production of the next issue. Oh wait, what am I talking about, they don't get a bonus. Your last point means nothing, sorry friend.

you missed that tongue in my cheek when i got to the starving employees bit.

insaniak wrote:Actually, I don't recall ever complaining about how bad White Dwarf is. When it reached a point where I realised that I wasn't really doing anything more than flicking through it and then putting it on a shelf (which came some time after GW announced that they would no longer be printing rules supplements in it) I just stopped buying it.

Ahem, Nightspinner much?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

yeah, but it's not exactly within dakka's policy to encourage violating laws. Copying things like that is one of them. And feebay is also always a risk too.... then let's not forget about the starving GW employees who we are cheating from dinner by not paying directly to GW

Sorry, but no. Ebay is totally on the side of the buyer, hands down. Ask any seller, they'll agree. First, you get ebay policies. THEN you get Paypal policies. You are VERY protected nowadays with buying on Ebay.

The starving GW employees? Again, no. They've already sold out of the White Dwarf that has the rules. They already sold out of the Sisters of Battle rules. Anyone that was entitled to a bonus from those sales has either A) Gotten them or B) Getting them. Could they have gotten a bigger bonus if they increased the production of that issue of the mag? Possibly. They may have lost whatever bonus they earned on the increased production of the next issue. Oh wait, what am I talking about, they don't get a bonus. Your last point means nothing, sorry friend.

you missed that tongue in my cheek when i got to the starving employees bit.

Fair enough, I stand successfully trolled But the first part I stand by. Ebay is very safe for a buyer.

I personally think that GW are wiping everything that was free of their website, for example remember the loads of painting articles that were taken off because there was a new paint range. They could of easily re-made them and put them up for free, but instead they remade them and shoved them in some book to try and take people's money. Also with the Sisters of Battle, I was kinda hoping it would be put up in a PDF instead strewn in a White Dwarf.

Dracos wrote:Hint: They have a foolproof option for you to never miss a WD rules update. Its called a subscription.

Just because you don't like that option does not mean its not available.

I don't like it, but that doesn't mean its not an option. You guys are claiming you have no option, but really you just dont like the option that you have.

So what you're saying is, to get the one issue with the rules that I want, I have to put up with the monthly catalogue crap they peddle for the rest of the year? Now that is value for money!

WaaaaghLord wrote:

Dracos wrote:Hint: They have a foolproof option for you to never miss a WD rules update. Its called a subscription.

Just because you don't like that option does not mean its not available.

I don't like it, but that doesn't mean its not an option. You guys are claiming you have no option, but really you just dont like the option that you have.

So what you're saying is, to get the one issue with the rules that I want, I have to put up with the monthly catalogue crap they peddle for the rest of the year? Now that is value for money!

Precisely, most of the time there is no guaranteeing that there will be a new model with new rules in the first place...

insaniak wrote:

Dracos wrote:There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept.

That's because this isn't an issue of personal responsibility.


GW are selling a game. Currently, they are selling a particular brand new model for which the rules are already out of print.

I don't have a 'personal responsibility' to buy GW's product, either the model or the rules. I can do so if I choose.... but there is no obligation for me to do so. If there is any 'responsibility' involved, it is GW's... they have a responsibility to adequately support the products they sell. By selling gaming models without rules to actually using them, they are arguably not supporting that product.

It's not up to the players to try psychically devine how GW are going to choose (or not) to release the rules for their models. We shouldn't feel obligated to go out and buy a particular publication for the single week that it will be available on the off-chance that GW will choose to not reprint a rules article from that publication anywhere else. It's GW's responsibility to communicate with their customers, and make it clear just when and where those rules will be available if they expect people to purchase the model.

I agree with what Insaniak is saying. I am exercising my right to not purchase a Stormtalon or Dakkajet because I do not have a way to get the rules.
I do own a Sisters army, but have no idea what the current rules are.
The local GW didn't even get copies for the shelf.

Though I disagree with the idea of paying a few bucks for the new flyer rules article.
Put them in a book, and I would have no problem with buying it if it is an army I want.
But I really don't want my tabletop gaming to start with micro transactions.
And I do not see the value in spending $9 for a single page out of a white dwarf.

Basic questions for people saying buy white dwarf and the rules are avalable online.

Lets say I'm 14, starting a new Ork army. For my birthday I get a battleforce, a codex and a jet online for £100. Where do I get the rules from? Illigal copy online? My parants would kill me for braking the law. Ipad version? I don't have £500 to spend on an ipad. White dwarf? Do you have a time macine to go back and get one?

I'm non of those. I do have an ipad, i do have a copy and i do know where to get one, but the fact is a large chunk of the player base cannot get the rules.

I have emailed GW CS and put the question to them and will let you know what I get back.

Steve steveson wrote:Basic questions for people saying buy white dwarf and the rules are avalable online.

Lets say I'm 14, starting a new Ork army. For my birthday I get a battleforce, a codex and a jet online for £100. Where do I get the rules from? Illigal copy online? My parants would kill me for braking the law. Ipad version? I don't have £500 to spend on an ipad. White dwarf? Do you have a time macine to go back and get one?

I'm non of those. I do have an ipad, i do have a copy and i do know where to get one, but the fact is a large chunk of the player base cannot get the rules.

I have emailed GW CS and put the question to them and will let you know what I get back.

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

Graphite wrote:Right up front - I think GW should eventually put the flyer rules on their website as a free .pdf, and keep charging for their iPad version as it has (presumably) extra dohickies. This will allow everyone to buy and play with GWs plastic toys.

SoB? Probably worth a .pdf at some stage, but lets face it - they're currently such a woefully supported army that new players aren't going to be looking for them until they finally compile a printed codex, so no enormous problem there.

But here's the thing. I don't think they should release this stuff for free right away. Remember Spearhead? Remember the BA codex? The "White Dwarf exclusives" that almost instantly ended up as .pdfs on the GW website? Weren't really all that exclusive, were they.

I've been a subscriber for years. And for years, People On The Internet have decried that it's the worst magazine in existence, that it's just a catalogue etc. I still enjoy flicking through it. Guess that makes me an idiot by the standards of The Internet People, right?

Well, now I have something you don't. Because you decided that the price was wrong for you, and that you'd prefer to pay a couple of quid every now and then. And it looks like it'll stay as something you don't have for a while, though hopefully not forever.

Tough.

You moan about how bad WD is, and that people shouldn't subscribe, and that it doesn't have rules in it. Then it changes, so you moan about that instead.

Tough.

Get a subscription. If more people subscribe now that they've started putting rules in, maybe they'll put more rules in since it clearly works as a marketing tool.

Or, keep moaning on the internet. Go ahead.

If all this makes me a troll, so be it, but remember that I can regenerate from everything but fire and spew acidic vomit on you at will.

You are not a troll, just uninformed and drinking too deeply from the kool aid...

I really like how you decry everyone elses opinion that overcharged gak is overcharged gak, then tell them tough.


Other then that, you payed for an overpriced sales catalogue. I can see how you'd be bitter with that.

Dracos wrote:Don't want to subscribe to WD? Then don't.

But if you fail to subscribe, you give up the ability to legitimately complain that an item included in the subscription is unavailable to you.

Its really just that simple.

Sorry you don't like the option GW is giving you.

I'd also like to get free rules, and hell why not throw some free models, paints and an apple pie in because I want it.

It's funny how through all of this you refuse to address the problem of new players having no rules available to them.

Can't white-knight your way out of that one huh?

marielle wrote:

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

And BINGO I get redirected to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp because 390 is out of print/stock !!!

Dracos wrote:I'd just like to add on a bit here:

While it may feel good to get things off your chest by posting complaints about GW, it does not help your situation in any way.

GW does lots of things that people don't like. I don't like that I don't have access to the stormtalon rules, I didn't buy the WD with the rules in it either. It didn't sell out right away locally, it was still there a while after it came out but I didn't want to buy it. I don't like WD in general so I never buy it. But not buying it, and not subscribing to it is a choice I made. It has consequences that I have to live with. I can't say the possibility didn't exist for me to get it, because I had the option to subscribe (ya right) or just buy the one issue that had the couple pages I wanted. Now I have to wait for them to make it available in some other format or just live with not having it.

There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept. Not subscribing or buying was a personal choice and you have to live with it. There was an option, and you didn't take it.

The point is that you have to recognize that GW is a sovereign entity and they are marketing their products in a way they feel is best for them. That's right, they are not doing any of their players any favours.

I submit that the guys at GW making their marketing decisions literally do not care if you have the rules you want. They only care if they are selling enough copies of WD and the models. You could even argue (likely accurately) that they are harming themselves economically with their marketing.

GW certainly could make it easier to obtain, and even purchase WD back issues or articles found therein. They have chosen not to, presumably because they believe it will be the best choice for them. You are free (and encouraged!) to disagree with them on their decisions.

However, the only way you have a chance of getting your dislike of a GW practice corrected is by taking it up with GW. Complaining on the internet about this is useless.

Just because you might have some misplaced obligation to pay for an overpriced catalogue with nothing in it, for the off chance that they MIGHT decide one day to grace you with something worth reading, I, for one, am not. As a paying consumer I will excersize my right as the consumer to complain about anything I want to. GW is too big for thier britches and will continue to lose money in sales as they pee all over thier own shoes on this rag. If I as a slighted customer complain, thats my right. Theres an old saying in sales- make a good sale, they tell thier friends, make a bad one, they tell everyone...

Want my money, produce quality product, and if not, your taking it in the hindquarters whenever I feel like talking about it. Don't like it, .... that's Tough, too.

The beatings will continue until moral improves.