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 Kaldor wrote:
You are aware that until recently, the codex you know as Codex: Space Marines was actually Codex: Ultramarines? There was no generic Marine codex. They just decided (I think in 4th edition, though it may have been 3rd) to change the name and add some options to let people represent other Chapters. So I think they can be forgiven if there's still some Ultramarines bias in what used to be the Ultramarines codex, don't you?

Get'cha facts straight. It wasn't recently. It was damn near 20 years ago! Codex: Ultramarines was a one-off from 2nd Ed. From 3rd onwards it's been Codex Ultramarines. Moreover, the first Marine list in 2nd Ed wasn't Ultramarines either (it was generic). I'd say that most of the people who play now weren't even born when Codex: Ultramarines came out.

If there's Ultramarine bias it's because they are the brand image for GW, as they've consistently chosen them to represent Marines on box covers and in artwork and so on (aside from the starter-kits, which have changed almost every edition - BA, Templars, Ultras, Ultras, DA's).

It was damn near 20 years ago! Codex: Ultramarines was a one-off from 2nd Ed. From 3rd onwards it's been Codex Ultramarines. Moreover, the first Marine list in 2nd Ed wasn't Ultramarines either (it was generic)..

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but for the sake of clarity I'm sure you meant that from 3rd Edition onward it's been Codex: Space Marines, which is accurate.

Correct.

Codex: Ultramarines was the generic Space Marine codex for 2nd Ed.

From the back cover;
"A complete army list for the Ultramarines chapter and all Codex Chapters given together..."

A great Codex.

Really I have nothing wrong with Marines that is because of them being Marines.

I hate TFG who gets all fluffy and talks about how great his particular Marine chapter is and how my forces don't stand a chance against the Imperium. But I'd hate TFG no matter what side he picked. (I also hate playing a game and having someone come over and say "Tau and Chaos? How'd that happen? That wouldn't happen. Why are you playing like that's possible?")

I hate the abundant attention they get, but what ever faction got that amount of attention would bother me. The game would get more attention if they stopped focusing on the "heroes" and gave the "villains" some spot light. Look at any kids show for an easy example. Would Autobots or G.I. Joe be as awesome if the Decepticons and Cobra never got attention? If they were just generic villains that showed up to be defeated?

I don't mind kids that much. We were all there at some point. They don't understand rules completely, they do shadey stuff because they don't understand better, and they can get a bit irritating because they aren't socially developed for higher age groups. They can be a bit annyoing, but I don't let it bother me.

Badly painted? I don't see myself as a good painter and would always consider my work crap because I could always do better. I don't honestly care about anyone else's army. If the paint job is terrible, I'll make a mental note of it but wouldn't really be bothered by it. If it's what somebody thought was a good job and they are happy, why should I judge them?

Really some of the nicest players I have met play C:SM. One guy had a very nicely made Salamanders army and the other runs a very unconventional Ultramarine list. Why am I ok with these? Because it's the people that matter. I hold a grudge against GW but don't extend it past there.

I'm pretty sure that every codex presents that race/faction as the end all, be all of all awesomeness. Plus, at least in the case of the ork codex, there is mention there of how the orks got the beatdown, and without having any proof, I'm willing to bet that is also the case with all the other codices. Hating C:SM because the space marines are presented as awesome in it, is a bit hypocritical.

Savageconvoy wrote:Badly painted? I don't see myself as a good painter and would always consider my work crap because I could always do better. I don't honestly care about anyone else's army. If the paint job is terrible, I'll make a mental note of it but wouldn't really be bothered by it. If it's what somebody thought was a good job and they are happy, why should I judge them?

Really some of the nicest players I have met play C:SM. One guy had a very nicely made Salamanders army and the other runs a very unconventional Ultramarine list. Why am I ok with these? Because it's the people that matter.

I fully agree.

I perfectly understand the hatred for all things SM, what with so much of the fluff focusing on the various chapters. As a former Ork player, I completely understand. Heck, I'm now a SM player myself, and I can't stand certain BL writers because they so grossly under-represent the xenos forces. I actually quit reading the first Armageddon novel because it was just stupid (5 marines pretty much wiping out a warband or some such nonsense). I slogged through the first Salamanders novel even though every page had me rolling my eyes.

That being said, from a purely fiction based standpoint, of the xenos races, only the Craftword Eldar would have any potential to have good stories. Orks are just soooo chaotic (not Chaos-tic ), that any attempt to do a full series of (semi)serious novels would probably be horrible. Dark Eldar are just too one-dimensional to put together a good narrative in my opinion, and Tau are too bland from a personality standpoint. 'Nids are mindless bugs, so they really just make good foils for everybody else. So that really just leaves the forces of the Imperium as the focus for fiction. However, the best fiction paints the Imperium in its true light, not some super heroic nonsense.

Now, that is just hatred for fiction's sake. Game rules, I don't understand hatred for SM (except for Space Pups). C:SM are really not that powerful, and are often far more cost prohibitive than other armies, including other SM armies. Xenos armies often have units designed to specifically counter SM and they are often more cost efficient than the marines they were designed to take out. The over-abundance of cost effective AP3 and AP2 units for a large number of nonSM armies really takes away their greatest asset (power armour) and forces SM players into just a couple of builds to be remotely competitive.

Marines are technically the 'beginner' army, something easy to get into that's very modular and fit a lot of roles.

People tend to associate most new players with this, which can be a negative stereotype.

The first marine player I met was a douchebag 15 year old who liked to bend the rules, that doesn't make him the rule when it comes to marine players. You find people like that with every army.

Legion of Flame wrote:
I like Space Marines, but Games Workshop focuses too much on them. And escpecially Ultramarines, ergh; cheesy chapter, cheesy characters, they're just cheesy. And unoriginal.

Also, how's this: name me one paintjob, one section of an army in ALL of 40k, that has six characters to its names, their own exclusive unit (Tyrannic War veterans, seriously?) and more than 150 models in the painting showcase.

What you just described was the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars codex books. But, those armies, on the other hand, have at least a half dozen exclusive units.

Why exactly is this bad when it is the Ultramarines?


Remember, the book is the linear successor of 1993's Codex: Ultramarines, which was the book that covered "normal" or "regular" Space Marine Chapters. The book has always been about Ultramarines. The name was changed to Codex: Space Marines as a marketing decision so it did not confuse entry level players who wanted to know which book to buy if they wanted to play regular Space Marines. The painting guides have always been Ultramarines. The fluff has always been Ultramarines. The special characters have even always been mostly Ultramarines. if anything, the book has gotten more spread out, offering up Special Characters for other chapters who don't have their own book. In that way, the Ultramarines have sacrificed book space where the Codex books for Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc have not.

Again though, the first person who can give a reasonable, well thought out answer to "Why exactly this is bad when it is Ultramarines, but not bad when it is Space Wolves/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Black Templars" will win some kind of prize, that I have no worry about having to give away since there is about zero likelihood of that ever happening.

I think alot of the Ultramarine hate stems from their sucess as a marketing strategy...you see them everywhere, and familiarity breeds contempt, or in this case just dislike/hatred.

But the Ultra's fluff is no more over the top than any other GW described chapter, everyone of them has something that is groan worthy, and some of the C:SM statements are a little much ( like the one saying all other chapters aspire to be like the ultras, or somesuch)

I overall like the ultras, and see them as the status quo for the Astartes, and have never jumped in on the hate bandwagon.

Myself I have always gravitated to the more unknown chapters or DIY homebrewed, (making up stuff is most the fun in this hobby.)

My only wish is I could play against marine armies a bit less, the quality of the minis, thier rules and advantages make them a very attractive army for many beginners, and so you have to deal with that alot..it just gets boring fighting the many shades of marine on the tabletop.

But all in all I prefer the vanilla marines. Viva ultramarines!

What I hate is unpainted proxy space marines, wolves, and blood angels. There is a few guys in my local area who play space wolves, but they really don't because they don't use space wolf models. They use regular and black reach marines, but these marines are not regular either, they are all unpainted, or nastily spray painted with fingerprints on them. A lot of them look like toothpaste dried on them. They are almost all missing bolters or heads, and he uses regular marines for assault marines. He uses a lot of space marine captains from black reach for like longfangs, terminators and such. His rhinos are half built, no tracks, no hatch. His assembled models have glue spewing out from every crevice and are all bumpy on the surface. This, and almost only this, is when I hate space marines.

I look down on anybody who bitches and moans over toys that others like but they dont. Get over it.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Would Autobots or G.I. Joe be as awesome if the Decepticons and Cobra never got attention? If they were just generic villains that showed up to be defeated?

But that's pretty much ALL they do. The decepticons led by Megafail and Starfail turn up, get their metallic butts kicked and run away, with megafail screeching "You have failed me again, Starfail." (you'd think he could replace him with someone competent or something? ).
Same with cobra. The show is called " GI Joe" not "the jolly adventures of GI JOE and Cobra". Cobra only exist so that the good guys have someone to fight.

 chromedog wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Would Autobots or G.I. Joe be as awesome if the Decepticons and Cobra never got attention? If they were just generic villains that showed up to be defeated?

But that's pretty much ALL they do. The decepticons led by Megafail and Starfail turn up, get their metallic butts kicked and run away, with megafail screeching "You have failed me again, Starfail." (you'd think he could replace him with someone competent or something? ).
Same with cobra. The show is called " GI Joe" not "the jolly adventures of GI JOE and Cobra". Cobra only exist so that the good guys have someone to fight.

I agree that they do eventually lose in every encounter, and admitedly there are better examples of villainy. My point is just that when you get a look at the villains perspective as someting other than "We will kill the good guys, because they like the things that we don't like." it makes them more fleshed out and gives them depth. I haven't read that many books from BL, but the ones I've read really didn't impress me much. They introduce the bad guys and leave their motives secretive to make the story more entertaining with the "mystery" behind it all. I prefer to hear the bad guys story. Megatron for example is a great villain when you look into his backstory. A simple worker who decides to rebel against the ruling elite, and during his rebelion comes to the relization that the strong must fight to overcome, mutating into "Only the strong should rule", and finally twisting into "Only the strong should have the right to live."

Necrons are my favorite example. Soulless machines following a few god-like beings so they can have more souls to eat. Boring. It's a threat, but so bland because you can't understand motivation. New Necrons have the eccentric leaders that have personalities and quirks. It makes it much more interesting to me, even though they gain "vulnerability" with their sentience.

I'm a huge UM fan, I'm 33 and have played since RT. I hope they keep UM the poster boys. I like the cycle.

Player joins 40k club: thinks UM are awesome
Player plays for a year or two: picks up another force, understands the game picks new force with eyes wide open
Player sells Ultras to new player (cheaper than buying new) making game more accessible.
Rinse repeat.

I also love the smack talk some newb with his GK force will give me, like I'm 12 and just started the game. Then I get to here how cheap and cheesy my list was after the game.

I still find more GK haters out there than UM btw.

Bad experiences with players of space marines also kinda annoyed at how many people play sm vs every other army and how there a lot more marine codex's vs every other army.
That said i like space wolves (even if the last space wolf player i played was a for using all his old sw codexes together takeing rules from each now i dont trust people.)

I find them predictable having fought so many games vs. them but a lot less against vs. eldar, nids etc. So when I write a list its designed to overpower tactical squads, assault terminators etc.

Therefore, I often feel happyish to see marines deployed against me as there's only so many times you can see sternguard drop pod with gates of infinity everywhere and find it scary! While other books are going to have tactics I've not seen before so I always give the rarer book a bit more respect!

as for painting etc, I actually quite like seeing what the kids do with marines I've seen some amazingly odd paint jobs and I find having a universal base of reference helps the process But, If someone has their army undercoated for ever it does get annoying regardless of race!

the
real cute hydra

I just look down on them mechanically otherwise they're just fine. And I am only allowed that privilege due to being more numerous than prayers in a foxhole.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Legion of Flame wrote:
I like Space Marines, but Games Workshop focuses too much on them. And escpecially Ultramarines, ergh; cheesy chapter, cheesy characters, they're just cheesy. And unoriginal.

Also, how's this: name me one paintjob, one section of an army in ALL of 40k, that has six characters to its names, their own exclusive unit (Tyrannic War veterans, seriously?) and more than 150 models in the painting showcase.

What you just described was the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars codex books. But, those armies, on the other hand, have at least a half dozen exclusive units.

Why exactly is this bad when it is the Ultramarines?


Remember, the book is the linear successor of 1993's Codex: Ultramarines, which was the book that covered "normal" or "regular" Space Marine Chapters. The book has always been about Ultramarines. The name was changed to Codex: Space Marines as a marketing decision so it did not confuse entry level players who wanted to know which book to buy if they wanted to play regular Space Marines. The painting guides have always been Ultramarines. The fluff has always been Ultramarines. The special characters have even always been mostly Ultramarines. if anything, the book has gotten more spread out, offering up Special Characters for other chapters who don't have their own book. In that way, the Ultramarines have sacrificed book space where the Codex books for Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc have not.

Again though, the first person who can give a reasonable, well thought out answer to "Why exactly this is bad when it is Ultramarines, but not bad when it is Space Wolves/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Black Templars" will win some kind of prize, that I have no worry about having to give away since there is about zero likelihood of that ever happening.

I see your standpoint, but remember the book is called Codex Space Marines.

It is the staple for the basic space marine chapters, the near thousand ones that don't have their own special characters. Yet despite this, so much of the book is filled with ultramarine that You get only a paragraph for some of the more famous chapters, and even less for other chapters. They get six characters to their name, yet only five characters for any other type of Space Marine.

The new chapter codexes were released for the sake of variety, that you can get a force that is Space Marines, but NOT space marines. Something that changes the tactics used by an army.

If Ultramarines had a codex by themselves, that would be awesome. And seeing the amount of cr*p they have about the smurfs in the regular codex, and in the wiki, they have plenty of material to work off.However, that will never happen as they are a codex chapter, and most chapters are based off of them.

I guess if I want to get the prize, I'll have to provide a simple answer, that is a single sentence.

The Ultramarines fluff is hideous, they have five more characters then any other chapter in a book that is supposed to be for the generic space marines, and they are smurfs.

Legion of Flame wrote:
I like Space Marines, but Games Workshop focuses too much on them. And escpecially Ultramarines, ergh; cheesy chapter, cheesy characters, they're just cheesy. And unoriginal.

The Ultramarines are like the original chapter... how are they "unoriginal"

i just don't like the fluff or anything about them apart from the raven guard those guys are badass. i think its the factions they get i would love to see some new guard books (Tallarn Valhalla voystryon etc)and i just think guard do a better job