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I don't look down on marines. They are a good starter force for new players and I don't know anybody who hasn't played marines at sometime during their 40K playing time (even if they wish to deny and hide that force).

Galacticz wrote: I just hate how instead of being creative and coming up with a new race, GW just books another Astartes chapter

I'd rather a dozen new Marine books came out based on chapters that have been in the fluff since 2nd ed than a new race was pulled out of the air, like Tau were. That being said, I'd rather no new races came out at all. Codices are too infrequent between updates as it is.

Legion of Flame wrote:
I like Space Marines, but Games Workshop focuses too much on them. And escpecially Ultramarines, ergh; cheesy chapter, cheesy characters, they're just cheesy. And unoriginal.

Also, how's this: name me one paintjob, one section of an army in ALL of 40k, that has six characters to its names, their own exclusive unit (Tyrannic War veterans, seriously?) and more than 150 models in the painting showcase.

Games Workshop needs to remove half of the Ultramarine material, add in either a) army showcase of every legion, or b) painting guide. Or, simply more scenario photos.

But I have nothing against Ultramarines players. They are Space Marine players.

But if I meet a Salamanders player, more than half of the time we have a great conversation and eventually hang out for a bit.

Well seeing as all the fancy chapters that don't have their own space marine book are cribbing on the Ultramarines personal book, it's kinda easy to understand why there's less of everything but Ultramarines.

I look down on people who look down on Marines.
Seriously, Marines are 40k.
It could be said that Marines are GW.

Note the statue, it's not an eldar farseer.....

I've been told by fairly reliable sources that GW makes more from Marine sales than pretty much everything else combined.
You don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

All those marine sales and codecies that people like to disparage, (spasss mhareenees, etc) pay the money that alows GW to spend time on the niche armies.

 htj wrote:

Galacticz wrote: I just hate how instead of being creative and coming up with a new race, GW just books another Astartes chapter

I'd rather a dozen new Marine books came out based on chapters that have been in the fluff since 2nd ed than a new race was pulled out of the air, like Tau were. That being said, I'd rather no new races came out at all. Codices are too infrequent between updates as it is.

I can agree that at the rate books are updated, no new ones should come out. But If they insist, I'd rather Space Marines be encompassed in a single book and have options as they do in the SM Codex, expanded more to compensate for differing troops then have to wait for my army to get updated because Dark Angels and Black Templars need new books.

Seriously? K, cool, one flies around in speeders more than average, and the other is just edgier than your average marine. Sounds like they both need new models and books to me.


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 marv335 wrote:

All those marine sales and codecies that people like to disparage, (spasss mhareenees, etc) pay the money that alows GW to spend time on the niche armies.

If only GW actually focused on the other codexes as much as they did with SPPAASSSSCE MAHWEENS, our favorite game would be more balanced and GW would be making more reliable sales.

I've got no real problem with the concept of Space Marines and with their role on the tabletop; I do agree that they get too much of a spotlight in the fluff, but they are a marvelous place for beginning players to start, since they're forgiving to play, fairly easy to paint, and not too expensive to get started with. I'd also dispute that every Space Marine book plays identically; Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both relatively mobile assault armies, with a bit more in the way of shooting with the Wolves, Black Templars are an assault-based infantry horde at heart, Dark Angels are a gunline army with a few tricks up their sleeve in the shape of Deathwing/Ravenwing, and regular Space Marines are a jack-of-all-trades force that can do everything but can't necessarily do it well.

 GalacticZ wrote:
Inb4 Necrons and Dark Eldar, they were so outdated, they needed every bit of power they were given.

Don't forget the Daemonhunters book; it was getting a bit dated. We used to have WS5 Space Marines with Nemesis halberds that gave them +2 Str at 25pts each and Justicars added very little to the unit despite being 50pts; dropping The Shrouding and WS5 for cheaper models with actual Force Weapons put them back on the competitive map in a big way. The White Dwarf Sisters of Battle book is quite a bit weaker than the Witch Hunters book, though, the only change they made was to rewrite Acts of Faith to make them weaker and less accessible.

 GalacticZ wrote:

 htj wrote:

Galacticz wrote: I just hate how instead of being creative and coming up with a new race, GW just books another Astartes chapter

I'd rather a dozen new Marine books came out based on chapters that have been in the fluff since 2nd ed than a new race was pulled out of the air, like Tau were. That being said, I'd rather no new races came out at all. Codices are too infrequent between updates as it is.

I can agree that at the rate books are updated, no new ones should come out. But If they insist, I'd rather Space Marines be encompassed in a single book and have options as they do in the SM Codex, expanded more to compensate for differing troops then have to wait for my army to get updated because Dark Angels and Black Templars need new books.

Seriously? K, cool, one flies around in speeders more than average, and the other is just edgier than your average marine. Sounds like they both need new models and books to me.

With you there. I've been a proponent of two Marine books - one Vanilla, and one with special rules for chapters of note - for a long time now. I'd like to see the same for Chaos. Four Marine books - Core, Special, Chaos Core, Chaos Special. Of course, this doesn't sit well with some, but it's all personal preference really. That happens to be mine.

 htj wrote:

 GalacticZ wrote:

 htj wrote:

Galacticz wrote: I just hate how instead of being creative and coming up with a new race, GW just books another Astartes chapter

I'd rather a dozen new Marine books came out based on chapters that have been in the fluff since 2nd ed than a new race was pulled out of the air, like Tau were. That being said, I'd rather no new races came out at all. Codices are too infrequent between updates as it is.

I can agree that at the rate books are updated, no new ones should come out. But If they insist, I'd rather Space Marines be encompassed in a single book and have options as they do in the SM Codex, expanded more to compensate for differing troops then have to wait for my army to get updated because Dark Angels and Black Templars need new books.

Seriously? K, cool, one flies around in speeders more than average, and the other is just edgier than your average marine. Sounds like they both need new models and books to me.

With you there. I've been a proponent of two Marine books - one Vanilla, and one with special rules for chapters of note - for a long time now. I'd like to see the same for Chaos. Four Marine books - Core, Special, Chaos Core, Chaos Special. Of course, this doesn't sit well with some, but it's all personal preference really. That happens to be mine.

I personally don't see anything wrong with publishing one list and then having an appendix with three or four pages for alternate army special rules, special characters, and alternate units for each variant army like they did with the Space Marine Legions in the Horus Heresy book. It'd actually be pretty cool to see what they did with that for non-Space Marine factions; flesh out other factions a bit more, bring Black Guardians back, who knows?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I personally don't see anything wrong with publishing one list and then having an appendix with three or four pages for alternate army special rules, special characters, and alternate units for each variant army like they did with the Space Marine Legions in the Horus Heresy book. It'd actually be pretty cool to see what they did with that for non-Space Marine factions; flesh out other factions a bit more, bring Black Guardians back, who knows?

I'd certainly like this. A bit more diversity for some of the other races could be quite exciting for the game. Conversely, it could be a total fiasco. Either way, I don't think we'll be seeing it any time soon.

 htj wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I personally don't see anything wrong with publishing one list and then having an appendix with three or four pages for alternate army special rules, special characters, and alternate units for each variant army like they did with the Space Marine Legions in the Horus Heresy book. It'd actually be pretty cool to see what they did with that for non-Space Marine factions; flesh out other factions a bit more, bring Black Guardians back, who knows?

I'd certainly like this. A bit more diversity for some of the other races could be quite exciting for the game. Conversely, it could be a total fiasco. Either way, I don't think we'll be seeing it any time soon.

I'm a big fan of alternate army lists, and it goes back much further than the recent Hours Heresy book. It's worked well in plenty of past codices as well as back in the days of Chapter Approved. Previous versions of IG, Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines have done this to some effect, as well as having sub codices with alternate army lists like Catachans, Craftworld Eldar, Armageddon, and Eye of Terror, that further expand on available army lists. Even Orks used to have individual clan rules in Chapter Approved White Dwarf articles. They added a lot of flavor to the game.

To the original question: I don't have any problem with Space Marines players. I've been one before and I'll probably be one again. The option about being poorly painted or unpainted isn't related to being space marines. I've seen all sorts of unpainted models on the table, it's not limited to GW's flagship army.

 Phaeron wrote:

I'm a big fan of alternate army lists, and it goes back much further than the recent Hours Heresy book. It's worked well in plenty of past codices as well as back in the days of Chapter Approved. Previous versions of IG, Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines have done this to some effect, as well as having sub codices with alternate army lists like Catachans, Craftworld Eldar, Armageddon, and Eye of Terror, that further expand on available army lists. Even Orks used to have individual clan rules in Chapter Approved White Dwarf articles. They added a lot of flavor to the game.

They did indeed, but they also had a couple of highly broken things in them. I think one of those dexes had the Eldar Crystal Targetting Matrix in, which was utter cheese nonsense. Always the danger, the more diversity you add, the easier it is to break the system by mistake.

When was the last "hate spike" for Marines in general, 2008?

I personally hate all the hate on unpainted armies. Iv painted my nid army and people have said that it looks good and I did enjoy the big bugs but painting loads of gaunts is one of the most boring things iv ever done. I play warhammer to play warhammer and armies shouldn't have to be painted if the owner doesn't want to. It's just stupid to say I'm not playing him because his army is unpainted it's just childish


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I do hate marines though cos they're fluff is boring

I love them, and I just turned 33.

The guard are great for their human qualities, the Space Marines are great for their none human qualities.

Batman isn't like a regular human, and I think he is fething great as well.

There is a time and a place for gritty realism and the puny human spirit triumphing against the odds, but there is also a time to be awed by those that are better than us.

I like comic books that are like that.. being awed by those that are greater than us. For example, seeing the hulk hold a mountain up or throw a tank at a helicopter, that kinda thing is great as well.

I really enjoy the fluff and the story that makes up the hobby I have had a real interest in for over ten years, and the Space Marine got me started on the journey.. I loved seeing their iconic armour and ultimate bad-assery many years ago.. and I have never grown out of it.

And I never will, as long as images like this remain.

People hate space marines? News to me.

SgtSixkilla wrote:I don't see how anyone could hate space marines, just because of the people playing them. It's like hating a stick which was used to kill someone with.

Actually, I believe a more correct comparison would be like "hating" the stick you get beaten with every day.

Which would be quite understandable, psychologically speaking.

I love Space Marines.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I personally don't see anything wrong with publishing one list and then having an appendix with three or four pages for alternate army special rules, special characters, and alternate units for each variant army like they did with the Space Marine Legions in the Horus Heresy book. It'd actually be pretty cool to see what they did with that for non-Space Marine factions; flesh out other factions a bit more, bring Black Guardians back, who knows?

That's exactly how I'd do it, exactly how GW did it with the 3.5 Chaos Codex, and exactly what FW is doing right now with their HH series - one army list (to rule them all), and then each Legion gets a few pages to include (roughly) 4 special characters, 1-3 specialist units, and a page or two of special rules/list modifications. It's such an elegant system that could work for virtually any army (even maybe 'Nids, to represent different Hive Fleets).

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

GalacticZ wrote:On the other hand, most Ork players i have played seem to be pretty easy going and i always have a good time.

Well, you kinda have to be easygoing to play Orks, lol.

You'd think so, but our only local Ork player is a bit of a jerk face.

Legion of Flame wrote:
I like Space Marines, but Games Workshop focuses too much on them. And escpecially Ultramarines, ergh; cheesy chapter, cheesy characters, they're just cheesy. And unoriginal.

Also, how's this: name me one paintjob, one section of an army in ALL of 40k, that has six characters to its names, their own exclusive unit (Tyrannic War veterans, seriously?) and more than 150 models in the painting showcase.

Games Workshop needs to remove half of the Ultramarine material, add in either a) army showcase of every legion, or b) painting guide. Or, simply more scenario photos.

But I have nothing against Ultramarines players. They are Space Marine players.

But if I meet a Salamanders player, more than half of the time we have a great conversation and eventually hang out for a bit.

You are aware that until recently, the codex you know as Codex: Space Marines was actually Codex: Ultramarines? There was no generic Marine codex. They just decided (I think in 4th edition, though it may have been 3rd) to change the name and add some options to let people represent other Chapters. So I think they can be forgiven if there's still some Ultramarines bias in what used to be the Ultramarines codex, don't you?

Galactic Z wrote:Inb4 Necrons and Dark Eldar, they were so outdated, they needed every bit of power they were given.

By that logic Space Wolves and Grey Knights (ex Daemon Hunters) deserved to be powerful too, and Black Templars deserve to get a really powerful book when they get their new one. Ignoring the fact that everyone deserves a strong book in the first place, it feels a little hypocritical to me to be fine with Xenos being powerful but counting the power level of some Marine 'dexes as something negative.

I don't like blue marines.

I hate any BA player that uses mephiston and/or the sanquinor.

I hate on space wolf players that don't actually play them fluff-wise. Less rune priests and long fangs, more assaults.

I don't hate GK, only inquisition spammers.

I will always like to see fluffy armies, regardless, so if blue marines show up as X company, I won't complain.

i dont hate SM, theyre a key part of the imperium, cause lets face it without them humanity would have been eradicated long before the great crusade.
Although without them the horus heresy probably woulndnt have happened....

anyway, all i hate is GW's over reliance on the ultramarines, that and the chapters name. i mean how arrogant is it to call a chapter "ultra"? and GW attempts to cover it up by calling their region ultramar.
although the whole roman/greek style armour is pretty cool so the models make good conversions.

Ultra translates from it's latin as 'beyond'. Which means it could denote in that. context how Ultramar is distant from Segmentum Solar. Rather than anything to do with superiority.

I don't mind marines, they are after all, GW's poster boy and money maker and if they make money, that's all GW is really after. My problems with marines (generic, BA, SW) is that people make really unfluffy lists like Long Fang-Rune Priest spam and it isn't fun and annoys me to an extent. I love making a bit of narrative for my games but if something like Long Fangs stretched along the opposite board edge not moving the entire game, ugh.
I play Templars, and to those who think they should be rolled into the generic codex along with DA, go away, DA and BT armies were meant to be different. You can't just get rid of all the special rules that those armies have and stick a shiny U on them and call it done. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who'd be annoyed to see their army turned blue.

I dont like poorly painted. However it has to be POORLY painted for me to find it annoying (Like dipping the model in paint)

I also dont like unpainted.


I like SMs otherwise and I like Codex Chapters (Actually I prefer them)

Eh, every game/action movie needs the generic superhuman hero because that's what most males secretly wish they were. Nothin new. Just like most women like dramatic romance movies, wishing they had some hunk whisk them away. I personally always thought SM were cheesy but to each their own.

Badly painted anything beats unpainted.

Space marines are fine. Even blue ones with upside down Omega symbols.

Spiky space marines are lame.
Drunken Viking werewolf space marines are lame.
Blood-drinking nipple-armoured space marines are lame.

Legion of Flame wrote:
I like Space Marines, but Games Workshop focuses too much on them. And escpecially Ultramarines, ergh; cheesy chapter, cheesy characters, they're just cheesy. And unoriginal.

Also, how's this: name me one paintjob, one section of an army in ALL of 40k, that has six characters to its names, their own exclusive unit (Tyrannic War veterans, seriously?) and more than 150 models in the painting showcase.

Games Workshop needs to remove half of the Ultramarine material, add in either a) army showcase of every legion, or b) painting guide. Or, simply more scenario photos.

But I have nothing against Ultramarines players. They are Space Marine players.

But if I meet a Salamanders player, more than half of the time we have a great conversation and eventually hang out for a bit.

 yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:

Legion of Flame wrote:
I like Space Marines, but Games Workshop focuses too much on them. And escpecially Ultramarines, ergh; cheesy chapter, cheesy characters, they're just cheesy. And unoriginal.

Also, how's this: name me one paintjob, one section of an army in ALL of 40k, that has six characters to its names, their own exclusive unit (Tyrannic War veterans, seriously?) and more than 150 models in the painting showcase.

Games Workshop needs to remove half of the Ultramarine material, add in either a) army showcase of every legion, or b) painting guide. Or, simply more scenario photos.

But I have nothing against Ultramarines players. They are Space Marine players.

But if I meet a Salamanders player, more than half of the time we have a great conversation and eventually hang out for a bit.

True.

People mostly choose armies/chapters for their fluff, personality, or awesomeness. So really, you have something to chat about.

For example, an Ork player got into Orks because Orks are fun. If he met another ork that got into orks because they are fun, there is a fairly good chance they'll like each other.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
of course I look down on them...they are like 32mm tops, me I am way taller than that……

First thing I thought of, still made me lol when I read it