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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Courage and Honour was worse. One space marine company and a single guard regiment demolishes this huge tau invasion despite being outnumbered 20:1.

Yes, the famous novel where a big interstellar invasion force drops orbital landers, anti-grav tanks and jump pack suits and then desperately fights for a bridge to cross a river

Best part of this picture is the Tau with white markings clearly thinking.

"Screw her I want the promotion."

That crisis suit has it's arms hidden behind the combat scene.
For all we know he's got the trigger pulled on twin plasma rifles to at least knock them away before they can land a hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Courage and Honour was worse. One space marine company and a single guard regiment demolishes this huge tau invasion despite being outnumbered 20:1.

Yes, the famous novel where a big interstellar invasion force drops orbital landers, anti-grav tanks and jump pack suits and then desperately fights for a bridge to cross a river

If the Tau and space marines don't fight and die for pretty scenery, then who will?

Only partially ?

Yes.

I agree that Marines get more than their fair share of spotlight, for sure, to the detriment of those who could use some attention, like Battle Sisters. I can certainly see why this can be frustrating.

BUT

Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

Sorry for the derailing. Carry on.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

That was obviously meant in jest, because of our discussion on that other thread. You certainly did not understood it literally.

The Crisis Suit steps backwards onto the Marine captain's cloak and they both fall over.

The first Marine drops his sword and falls on it and is killed.

The Battlesuit falls on the other Marine and pins him with his weight. Shadowsun shoots the Marine with two fusion guns.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Only partially ?

Yes.

I agree that Marines get more than their fair share of spotlight, for sure, to the detriment of those who could use some attention, like Battle Sisters. I can certainly see why this can be frustrating.

BUT

Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

Sorry for the derailing. Carry on.

I would be okay with Imperials owning Tau. But looking at that image you would never think that the Tau actually win a crushing victory on Agrellan; which is canon. Its purely been altered because they didn't want to show an image with the space marines losing and instead do an image which doesn't fit the events its meant to represent. If this were the cover of COurage and Honour it would be a very accurate depiction. But the Tau win the battle and the third sphere expansion drives deeper into Imperial space. That image makes it look like the Tau get hurled back by the victorious armies of humanity. The only excuse for that is that they want to make the White Scars and Raven Guard look good. Theres very little to indicate the Imperium is losing that war badly.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I would be okay with Imperials owning Tau. But looking at that image you would never think that the Tau actually win a crushing victory on Agrellan; which is canon. […]

He is not speaking about the image, he is speaking about my snarky comment here :

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You do not understand. If you find that the chances for anything to happen are greater than 1 (except if said event is “Some marines will betray”. This can go as far as over nine thousand !), then your maths are wrong.

Yeah, it was stupid, but it was not meant to be taken seriously.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Only partially ?

Yes.

I agree that Marines get more than their fair share of spotlight, for sure, to the detriment of those who could use some attention, like Battle Sisters. I can certainly see why this can be frustrating.

BUT

Taking this fact and then using it to excuse cheap butthurt flamebaits (e.g, 'nothing is gauranteed except Marines falling') is overreacting and rather unnecessary, unless it's just trolling, in which case the faults should be obvious.

Sorry for the derailing. Carry on.

I would be okay with Imperials owning Tau. But looking at that image you would never think that the Tau actually win a crushing victory on Agrellan; which is canon. Its purely been altered because they didn't want to show an image with the space marines losing and instead do an image which doesn't fit the events its meant to represent. If this were the cover of COurage and Honour it would be a very accurate depiction. But the Tau win the battle and the third sphere expansion drives deeper into Imperial space. That image makes it look like the Tau get hurled back by the victorious armies of humanity. The only excuse for that is that they want to make the White Scars and Raven Guard look good. Theres very little to indicate the Imperium is losing that war badly.

Actually, if you look more closely, the Imperium is definitely taking a beating. There is lots of dead and wounded Astartes laying around and there is a huge artillery blast that makes short work of that Imperial Guardsman. The Imperials are also fending of attacks from all sides. It looks more like the Imperium is making a heroic last stand rather than decisively winning.

I disagree. Because Shadowsun is in close combat with two space marine captains. How would that ever happen during a last stand ? Who she voluntarily go there ?
It looks like some kind of ambush to murder her. And really, having two marines gang on her from both side make them look like bullies much more than heroes.

That doesn't really explain the heaps of dead Astartes all over the picture though.

Honestly, it seems more likely that it was the Tau who sprang the ambush than the other way around. There's no reason for why a Devastator marine would be that close to the enemy if it was the Astartes with the initiative, and if you look at the marines in the background, they're in a circle formation shooting in all directions. That implies pretty heavily that they're surrounded, which wouldn't be the case if they were the assaulting force.

What seems more likely to me, is that it was Shadowsun and a mobile force of drones and her bodyguard suits who jumped the Astartes force, which is being led by Kahn. Shryke, who's a stealth master and who Shadowsun didn't even know was on the battlefield, manages to get the jump on her, and while she's distracted by him, Kahn moves in to flank.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I disagree. Because Shadowsun is in close combat with two space marine captains. How would that ever happen during a last stand ? Who she voluntarily go there ?
It looks like some kind of ambush to murder her. And really, having two marines gang on her from both side make them look like bullies much more than heroes.

Maybe she had a terminal case of the dumb.
It's not like strategy or tactics play a huge part in 40k.

Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

That is actually a pretty interesting idea

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That doesn't really explain the heaps of dead Astartes all over the picture though.

It explains perfectly the two dead white scars : setting up an assassination/ambush does not mean nobody will try to shoot at you.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

That is actually a pretty interesting idea

Yeah, we need more female characters dying in droves, incapable of accomplishing anything.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

That is actually a pretty interesting idea

Yeah, we need more female characters dying in droves, incapable of accomplishing anything.

I didn't say anything like that, unless you mean that all Tau are female and that all Tau are incapable of accomplishing anything.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You do not understand. If you find that the chances for anything to happen are greater than 1 (except if said event is “Some marines will betray”. This can go as far as over nine thousand !), then your maths are wrong.

Apparently you are computing the expected number of kills. Which, frankly, does not make much sense.
If you want to compute the chance of killing one of those miserable marines, you should work that way :
The chance of a marine being killed is 1-chances of a marine surviving.
The chance of a marine surviving is the chance of a marine surviving the first shot times the chance of him surviving the second shot knowing that he survived the first shot.
The chance of a marine surviving the first shot is 1- the chance of him dying to the first shot.

The correct formula is 1-( [1-(35/36×5/6)]² ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
End result is 44975 chances out of 46 656 to kill that marine dead.
Decimal approximation : 0.9639703360768175582990397805212620027434842249657064

Do you really think it matters? Or that I really care?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That doesn't really explain the heaps of dead Astartes all over the picture though.

It explains perfectly the two dead white scars : setting up an assassination/ambush does not mean nobody will try to shoot at you.
.

Not really. See my edit.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ohh no, she dies, and dies horribly. But what they don't tell you is that Shadowsun is not a name, but a title. They have 4 - 5 shadowsuns ready down the pipe line. Young girls taught from birth and ready to step into this prestigious appointment when their number is called. They are brainwashed into believing the backstory of shadowsun is their backstory. Its a very old trick of the Etherials, and a good one, and IMO perfectly fluffy in how a race like the Tau moves forward.

Well she did/does have sisters...

Oh no the side in the ascendence can still take losses. There an old Damocles Gulf Crusade image where the space marines are clearly being driven back and losing but you can still see one sergent slicing his chainsword through the gut of a crisis suit.

A few dead marines doesn't alter the fact that Shadowsun and her two bodyguards are the only tau who aren't drones in view surrounded by Imperial soldiers who outnumber them. I assume she killed one of the marines at the base of the thing. But, killing one grunt before being double teamed by 2 captains is a definite defeat for the Tau. If anything Shadowsun is shown in a last stand with her bodyguards back to back with her.

The artist obviously didn't appreciate that its not a fair fight to have one let alone two close combat monster space marines fighting one of the weakest characters. This isn't a chaos lord or a hive tyrant. It gives a very bad impression and looks more like bullying than heroic.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I didn't say anything like that

You did not, and I do not think you even thought about it. But Shadowsun is among the only female special character along with Celestine, Lelith and Lady Malys, and turning her into some propaganda symbol rather than some actually powerful individual…
Not something I would like.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I didn't say anything like that

You did not, and I do not think you even thought about it. But Shadowsun is among the only female special character along with Celestine, Lelith and Lady Malys, and turning her into some propaganda symbol rather than some actually powerful individual…
Not something I would like.

No, 40k is lacking in good female characters, I agree. But the idea would extend to all Tau characters, not just Shadowsun. All Tau 'heroes' are propaganda symbols. I find that to be an interesting idea, it would go more into how the ethereals keep the Tau under control.

http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/art/The-Scythes-264327202

Here it is. This is a piece of artwork where the tau are shown in the ascendance and winning. Tau are still being killed, but the marines are obviously reeling and losing. It tells me that even the Emperors Space Marines could not save the Damocles Gulf Crusade; which is the purpose of the image. So just because a few marines are dead in the Shadowsun image means little. They've won. They've killed Shadowsun and driven them off Agrellan. Thats what the image tells me.

What about Farsight, then ?

The artist obviously didn't appreciate that its not a fair fight to have one let alone two close combat monster space marines fighting one of the weakest characters. This isn't a chaos lord or a hive tyrant. It gives a very bad impression and looks more like bullying than heroic.

But reading the description that the artist posted below the pic, its just her interpretation of the brief she was sent by someone in GW which said a "2vs1 melee between khan, shrike and SS".
Who knows how long or detailed the brief was, it could have mapped out the whole scene or been a one liner.
Hence the artist has to interpret it and come up with something that gets signed off and greenlighted by gw/bl.
Its quite possible the artist has some knowledge of model stats and abilities but equally as likely to be paid a commission and simply needing to get something finished by a deadline.
I wouldnt read too much into it, there is much worse artwork out there.

Don't know if this has been mentioned before in response to the OP.... but there are 2 Crisis Suits right there. The Tau may not be very good in CC, but it doesn't take Bruce Lee to punt a one-half-ton Space Marine out of the way with a multi-ton walking tank.

 Psienesis wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned before in response to the OP.... but there are 2 Crisis Suits right there. The Tau may not be very good in CC, but it doesn't take Bruce Lee to punt a one-half-ton Space Marine out of the way with a multi-ton walking tank.

Actually I myself said the crisis suit could Bruce Lee (those exact words) Shrike out of the way. But hes not in a position to do that as the lightening claw is about to go through Sahdowsuns chest and kill her. Nowhere near that quick and his "look" indicates surprise rather than action. It could just be a spacing issue and really shrike should be further away than he is. The artist couldn't fit everything in or wanted it to be more close quarters than was necessary.

Ratius, it is a guy, and he is familiar with the settings (see http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-The-Shape-of-the-Hunt-440917248 ).
Agree with the rest of what you said.

It's also possible that the entire picture is just an artistic interpretation to represent the struggle of the story. Which is about how two Space Marines know they are about to face defeat in the face of overwhelming firepower, but are intent on killing Shadowsun above all else in their battle.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Don't know if this has been mentioned before in response to the OP.... but there are 2 Crisis Suits right there. The Tau may not be very good in CC, but it doesn't take Bruce Lee to punt a one-half-ton Space Marine out of the way with a multi-ton walking tank.

Actually I myself said the crisis suit could Bruce Lee (those exact words) Shrike out of the way. But hes not in a position to do that as the lightening claw is about to go through Sahdowsuns chest and kill her. Nowhere near that quick and his "look" indicates surprise rather than action. It could just be a spacing issue and really shrike should be further away than he is. The artist couldn't fit everything in or wanted it to be more close quarters than was necessary.

Hard to read emotion from a thing who's face is a black box with a single blue eye-light. Looks to me like it's looking at Mr. Lightning Claw like "What is this bit of fluff here?" and is just going to punt the dude for a 500-yard field goal, and is going to deliver a backhanded pimp-slap to the side of Whitey's dome there.