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 BlaxicanX wrote:
How is black carapace and power armor superior to crisis suits?

They're not.

I know, but I'm just curious about the reasoning.

Ah, right.

The Black Carapace is superior to the Tau Mind Impulse Unit thingamajig because it makes Power Armour a second skin. Crisis Suits are still piloted, Power Armour is a part of you. Further, Crisis Suits aren't equivalent to Power Armour. Power Armour is personal armour, Crisis Suits are piloted weapons platforms.

Sarcasm

Not to mention I'm talking about Shadowsun not crisis suits.

Furthermore, I feel like hooking stuff up to your mind is way more intense than hooking it up to your body. I know Imperials do it too but in the case of the crisis suit and black carapace, mind over matter all the way.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:
Sarcasm

Not to mention I'm talking about Shadowsun not crisis suits.

You started off by claiming that Tau tech is more advanced than Man's overall, which isn't true. There's probably parts of Shadowsun's armour that's more advanced than the Imperial counterpart, but even then there's also parts of the Marines' wargear that's more advanced than the Tau counterpart.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:
Sarcasm

Not to mention I'm talking about Shadowsun not crisis suits.

You started off by claiming that Tau tech is more advanced than Man's overall, which isn't true. There's probably parts of Shadowsun's armour that's more advanced than the Imperial counterpart, but even then there's also parts of the Marines' wargear that's more advanced than the Tau counterpart.

Actually, tau stuff is controlled by the "pilots" mind. It becomes part of you when you pilot it. You even feel ghost pain when the suit is damaged.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Black Carapace is superior to the Tau Mind Impulse Unit thingamajig because it makes Power Armour a second skin. Crisis Suits are still piloted, Power Armour is a part of you. Further, Crisis Suits aren't equivalent to Power Armour. Power Armour is personal armour, Crisis Suits are piloted weapons platforms.

But the end result (the function) is the same. Power armor is "a second skin", but what practical benefit does that give that the Crisis Suit does not? Tau aren't melee combatants, so they're not concerned with needing to do backflips. By comparison, crisis suits give near-infinite flight and far greater physical enhancements (crisis suits amp a S3, T3 W1 creature to S5, T4 W2, compared to S4, T4, W1 Marines becoming... S4, T4, W1, this is represented in the fluff as well).

Combine that with Crisis Suits far superior hard-points, and the difference between the two is pretty stark. Power armor is literally just a really tough suit of armor that doesn't restrict mobility. A Crisis Suit offers... a hell of a lot more.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Black Carapace is superior to the Tau Mind Impulse Unit thingamajig because it makes Power Armour a second skin. Crisis Suits are still piloted, Power Armour is a part of you. Further, Crisis Suits aren't equivalent to Power Armour. Power Armour is personal armour, Crisis Suits are piloted weapons platforms.

But the end result (the function) is the same. Power armor is "a second skin", but what practical benefit does that give that the Crisis Suit does not? Tau aren't melee combatants, so they're not concerned with needing to do backflips. By comparison, crisis suits give near-infinite flight and far greater physical enhancements (crisis suits amp a S3, T3 W1 creature to S5, T4 W2, compared to S4, T4, W1 Marines becoming... S4, T4, W1, this is represented in the fluff as well).

Combine that with Crisis Suits far superior hard-points, and the difference between the two is pretty stark. Power armor is literally just a really tough suit of armor that doesn't restrict mobility. A Crisis Suit offers... a hell of a lot more.

Which is where Terminator Armour and Centurion Armour comes in. Power Armoured Marines can fight inside buildings and spaceships, Crisis Suits can't.

TDA will fall through the floors of most buildings unless you're inside some kind of AdMech or Hive-support structure. It's a massive suit of armor intended to be worn inside a plasma reactor. It weighs tons.

... and you can forget about walking up a wooden staircase. That's just right out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Which is where Terminator Armour and Centurion Armour comes in.

So you're moving the goal-post here, since your assertion was that black carapace made power armor more advanced than a crisis suit...

Anyway, aside from having superior durability (to which I could point to Broadsides, which have a 2+ save as well), what does TDA and Centurion armor have over Crisis Suits? They still can't fly, still don't offer nearly as much firepower or hard-points for accessories, and in the case of TDA, still doesn't enhance the wearer like a Crisis Suit does.

Power Armoured Marines can fight inside buildings and spaceships, Crisis Suits can't.

According to what?

Crisis suits cant fight inside a spaceship?
You do realise thats how they get them to a war zone right? inside one.
So if they can walk around in a small one, fighting in a bigger one really isnt an issue.

Also, space hulk, dreadnoughts, it is possible

Space ships dont have any form of restrictions except size, and a suit isnt that huge.

And as far as weight, the Tau codex outright states that Crisis Suits are vastly lighter than power armor, despite offering comparable protection.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Power Armoured Marines can fight inside buildings and spaceships, Crisis Suits can't.

According to what?

Size. Power Armoured Marines probably fit into corridors made for standard living beings, Crisis Suits don't.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Anyway, aside from having superior durability (to which I could point to Broadsides, which have a 2+ save as well), what does TDA and Centurion armor have over Crisis Suits? They still can't fly, still don't offer nearly as much firepower or hard-points for accessories, and in the case of TDA, still doesn't enhance the wearer like a Crisis Suit does.

Teleportation, for one. Better armour. Easily comparable firepower fluff-wise (and if you think Crisis Suits have better firepower than Gravturions in-game you're free to think that, but I'd not agree).

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Which is where Terminator Armour and Centurion Armour comes in.

So you're moving the goal-post here, since your assertion was that black carapace made power armor more advanced than a crisis suit...

An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

A crisis suit is much more advanced. They can survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, have advanced tracking systems, scanners, targeters, a jet pack, more advanced weaponry, ect. It is more advanced. The materials that are used to build them are more advanced than the ceramitite used in power armour as well.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

A crisis suit is much more advanced. They can survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, have advanced tracking systems, scanners, targeters, a jet pack, more advanced weaponry, ect. It is more advanced. The materials that are used to build them are more advanced than the ceramitite used in power armour as well.

Power Armour can also survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, has advanced tracking systems, scanners, and targeters. Further, a fusion gun isn't more advanced than a meltagun, a plasma is a plasma etc. The difference is the jetpack, which comes attachable to Power Armour (see jump packs).

Citation on the "more advanced materials" part?

It may already gave been noted, but Shadowsun survives because she is flipping her fusion blaster up to lop off Shrike's arm before the blades hit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[

An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

Um... you can't compare an aircraft to a suit of armour. They're totally different things and require totally different technology.

Power Armour and Crisis Suits are both kinds of power armour. They require a similar form of technology, and are therefore comparable. The Crisis Suit has the advantages of mobility, enhancement and armament, while the Power Armour has the advantage of size.

Shadowsun's suit is clearly more advanced than standard power armour, because it has all the advantages of both the crisis suit and the power armour.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Shadowsun's suit is clearly more advanced than standard power armour, because it has all the advantages of both the crisis suit and the power armour.

And Artificer Armour is more advanced than Power Armour.

Only through the blessings of the Omnissiah. The Imperium does not have the technology to produce artificer armour. They can't run suits of it off a production line. The artificer part comes from it having been upgraded and modified over centuries by forgemasters. None of those improvements make it back to the Mars Archive, so it cannot be stated that they make the Imperium's mastery of technology greater.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An Ork Bomma is more mobile and packs more firepower than a Marine in Power Armour. That doesn't make it more advanced, just like a Crisis Suit isn't more advanced than Power Armour.

A crisis suit is much more advanced. They can survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, have advanced tracking systems, scanners, targeters, a jet pack, more advanced weaponry, ect. It is more advanced. The materials that are used to build them are more advanced than the ceramitite used in power armour as well.

Power Armour can also survive under water for greatly extended periods of time, has advanced tracking systems, scanners, and targeters. Further, a fusion gun isn't more advanced than a meltagun, a plasma is a plasma etc. The difference is the jetpack, which comes attachable to Power Armour (see jump packs).

Citation on the "more advanced materials" part?

A fusion gun is more advanced than a melta gun in the same way a multi-melta is more advanced than a meltagun, longer range. the thing is plasma guns are rare, even among space marines (albeit relativity so in their case). The space marine basic gin is the bolter which is far less advanced than any of the crisis basic weapons other than the flamer. Basic tau trackers are more advanced than basic power armour trakers (multitrackrers) and space marines don't have anything like blacksun filters basic AFAIK. Tau upgrades stress this even more with things like advanced targeting systems, counterfire defense systems, early waring ovvereides, target locks, ect. If anything tau jetpacks are more advanced than jump packs as they allow for constant flight instead of jumps like the jump pack and is much more stable. They also use more than just jet propulsion, but small anti-grav generators as well.
When I talk about extended periods of time I'm talking about farisght staying under water for a long time. This is from the enclaves book.

....... In his search for wisdom, he skimmed low across the saline ocean of Vior’los and then plunged into the water, diving down to the darkness of the ocean bed. There, he settled into a trance, sitting cross-legged in the hero’s mantle for seven long cycles. Nightsharks and bulbous glowfish circled in the bubbles that bled up from oceanic fissures around him as he sought inspiration from the cold truths of water.

Also for the more advanced materials, the first place I found it was the current tau codex (alhtough this info was in older books)

... ,the XV8's armour is comparable to ceramite used by the Imperium's Space Marines, but weighs substantially less.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Shadowsun's suit is clearly more advanced than standard power armour, because it has all the advantages of both the crisis suit and the power armour.

And Artificer Armour is more advanced than Power Armour.

And shadowsun's suit is too.

A static baneblade with no invuln is a heck of a lot more vulnerable than a Knight that can move 12", charge, has fleet, and can deflect shots on a 4++ or better. Not to mention the close combat effectiveness.

Now bring in the riptide, that thing tears up the static tank, and threatens the knight. Knights are MUCH rarer and more versatile then the static baneblade.

They each have their uses, but just saying there is a plothole because the knights pulled out of the fight is a bit off IMO.

 sfshilo wrote:
A static baneblade with no invuln is a heck of a lot more vulnerable than a Knight that can move 12", charge, has fleet, and can deflect shots on a 4++ or better. Not to mention the close combat effectiveness.

Now bring in the riptide, that thing tears up the static tank, and threatens the knight. Knights are MUCH rarer and more versatile then the static baneblade.

They each have their uses, but just saying there is a plothole because the knights pulled out of the fight is a bit off IMO.

You posted this into the wrong topic. Obviously.

 Flinty wrote:
It may already gave been noted, but Shadowsun survives because she is flipping her fusion blaster up to lop off Shrike's arm before the blades hit.

No shes missed, Shrike has dodged her shot which leaves him open to stab her.

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a fusion beam about to pass right through dude's arm just above the elbow when she curls her left arm up.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a fusion beam about to pass right through dude's arm just above the elbow when she curls her left arm up.

His arm is raised above the beam and is going under his shoulder. Shadowsun has missed by a wide margin. Definitely not going into his arm.

Her gun is definitely between shrike's arm and body, that's for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just noticed something. The markings on the suit closest to shadowsun indicate that he is not a shas'vre as everyone assumes, but a shas'o, a commander. He could pull a glorious intervention , but seriously he mught be able to save shadowsun if she is in trouble. And he could have the onager gauntlet, S10 AP1 at I, baby! The other one may be as well, it's hard to tell with the shadow.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a fusion beam about to pass right through dude's arm just above the elbow when she curls her left arm up.

His arm is raised above the beam and is going under his shoulder. Shadowsun has missed by a wide margin. Definitely not going into his arm.

Yes, and if she curls her arm up, as in bringing her left hand up to her shoulder, it brings the muzzles of those blasters (and their fusion beams) directly in line with his elbow and upper-arm. Or, hell, she doesn't even have to cut his arm off, just stick the blaster in his arm-pit, with the size of those guns, he won't be able to get enough "wrap" with his arm to actually hit her, his arm'll be stuck out to the side, just flailing in the breeze.

Shrike has momentum and is a space marine so its very implied that he will gore shadowsun before she could spin and do that. Hes many times faster than her. Even at human speeds she wouldn't have the reflexes to do that. Shrike would be on top of her even if the first blow didn't kill her. Hes inside her guard and this makes her bulky weapons useless.

I won't argue about whether or not a fusion blaster is a "flamethrower" type weapon or a "bolt"of plasma. It could be either but its not really important. What matters is that he is inside her guard and she is firing because shes missed him; which shows that Shrike is a lot faster than her. Which makes sense considering the characters specialty of combat.

All I can say after reading the first page is: Shadowsun is no Bro.. she shall live.