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 wuestenfux wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

The situation is different here.
I think we had never more 40k players than right now.

My experience with most games is that when a game is really popular in an area and then suddenly die off, it is almost always due to a small group of people who poison the whole community with their toxicity.

The heyday for 40k locally was definitely 5th edition but there are way more people playing now than did from the middle of 6th through 7th. That is largely because toxic people entered the community and poisoned it. 8th edition brought people back and, so far, the toxic elements have stayed far away (which has been really nice).

To clarify my earlier post... I don’t think GW is dying by any means. Just that my interest had died, was rekindled, but is now waning again with the constant (paid) rules updates.

I’m in favour of updating rules, but it is distasteful to me to need to buy book after book after book of mostly flash and little substance. Compile the updates, add them to the FAQ and Errata. Just my slice of the world and not claiming to be more than that.

 Red_Five wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

The situation is different here.
I think we had never more 40k players than right now.

My experience with most games is that when a game is really popular in an area and then suddenly die off, it is almost always due to a small group of people who poison the whole community with their toxicity.

The heyday for 40k locally was definitely 5th edition but there are way more people playing now than did from the middle of 6th through 7th. That is largely because toxic people entered the community and poisoned it. 8th edition brought people back and, so far, the toxic elements have stayed far away (which has been really nice).

I find toxicity is often overblown. What I find often happens is that club or group forms around a central core of members who share a similar interest. However as they are often friends it can run the risk that "life" gets in the way at around the same sort of time for them. This can suddenly result in several key members leaving through no fault of the group on its own - they just drift aside and play less and less as life gets in the way.

Then suddenly the group might lose its leader - leaving the club held together by a few people who don't really know how to organise and run and it keeps dwindling.


A big weakness is that many clubs don't recruit. They form and let people walk in the door, but they don't go out hunting and advertising (except perhaps a note in the local game shop window). So they only need to lose a few to start really losing their active population and once they are on a downer its harder to get new people in when there's perhaps only three or four around

Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

@ OP: if by "dying" you mean you lost/are losing interest in the game due to [INSERT REASON HERE], and if anyone else is feeling the same way - sure, why not. But doesn't it happen all the time anyways especially if you haven't been playing eldar all along?

 Grimtuff wrote:


Just a little PSA- ICV2 is only as good as whomever's narrative wants to be pushed as the data is gathered manually from FLGSs (FLGSs that also choose to participate), you can look at past ones where AoS slipped out of the top 5 yet it was still strong in other local areas for example. The data only gives you a snapshot of those interviewed.

Yes, but those willing to use ICV2 as evidence of GWs demise in the past cannot also now ignore it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red_Five wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Seems like popularity has died down more and more in my area and on the forums since 5 and 6th which seem like the pinnacle of this hobby system.

You should ask yourself why 40k seems less popular now than it was in 5th and 6th editions. 90% of the time, it has to do with a few particular players poisoning the community.

Exactly this. Clubs are usually dominated by a handful of strong personalities. If they have a bone to pick with a particular system then you won't see it do well in that area.

Honestly, I think GW's financial performance is enough to say there is no overall issue, although of course local scenes can vary. From my observations over the years, this seems to be a bigger problem in the US than the UK too, I reckon it is probably to do with the lower population density over much of the US. I get the impression that a lot more travelling is involved in general to form/attend a club there, unless you live in a major city. So it is easy for a local club to fade, and not be able to relocate to a new club due to the distance involved.

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

delete

I could accept that 2 years into 8th the gloss is starting to come off a bit. A meta defined by soup seems destined to run and run, and while the CA points changes are making most armies at least vaguely playable, its usually with clear auto-takes and never-takes which conspires to produce very similar games even if dice change the outcome.

But I think my hopes the big FAQ/CA would shake up the meta are not universally shared - indeed many people hate and fear the prospect, because they have 2k points and any changes puts them out for a year or so while they rebuild.

I can't square the idea that things were better in 5th or 6th.

 Brother Castor wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

That's a yikes from me

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

The OP has a long and varied history of low grade trolling. The old hotness was something like 'How do I beat X?' and then responding with 'no, I don't want to do that,' at all suggestions, "Why do people say X is overpowered? I use them and they never do anything." *describes slowly walking something with powerful deep strike options across the table.* as well as being hung up on 40K getting 'Sigmar'd' back when AoS was new and awful.

I live in the gaming wasteland known as the US bible belt, the Deep South. 40K has been thriving here of late moreso than I've seen in the past few years. When 8E came out there was a large surge, then a bit of a lull as the Codexes got around, now it seems to be growing again and I dare say there are more playing & buying at the local FLGS than when 8E initially came out.

Honestly, I think Kill Team has helped get a good portion of folks back into the game and looking at returning to 40K proper to boot.

Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

I really don't buy the whole dakka is dying narrative. It's not as active as it was when I started in 5th but it's a lot more active than during 7th.

I've seen dakka far worse than it is now.
I think it peaked maybe 2 years ago but this is far from dying.

 Hollow wrote:
Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

If you think Dakka is toxic then you'd probably die of shock if you saw the early internet. Dakka is an absurdly heavily moderated forum with Iron Fist Mods compared to the early 90's BBS and IRC.

I mean, you said "poor moderation", which is technically true, but if you meant "poor" as in "not moderated enough", I just don't understand how you can come to that conclusion.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Not dead where I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the OP post this thread every edition?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673317.page

The OP has a long and varied history of low grade trolling. The old hotness was something like 'How do I beat X?' and then responding with 'no, I don't want to do that,' at all suggestions, "Why do people say X is overpowered? I use them and they never do anything." *describes slowly walking something with powerful deep strike options across the table.* as well as being hung up on 40K getting 'Sigmar'd' back when AoS was new and awful.

Ah, those were the days! Back when I was a boy, I remember them well. Wasn't there a few threads where other people in his club were telling him off for a variety of reasons too?

Back to the topic, 40k is at its height. In my area my FLGS local championship tickets sell out within the first two hours of announcement. Max tables. Every time. My own personal interest has waned and now I leave the game, my Night Lords are just so frustrating to play with, even in casual games it's not worth the investment anymore. I look to greener pastures such as Batman, EDEN, Mythos, and more skirmish games and they suit my needs now. They also allow me to invest in other hobbies too, now I'm not shovelling money into a faction GW have clear no interest in.

To make a long story short, the rules got an overwhelming welcome overhaul but the same external balance issues arise from past editions, but everyone turns the other cheek because GW became more 'customer-friendly' with social media, ergo the white-knighting, echo-chamber on the Warhammer pages/groups is rife (despite GW asking for fair critique).

I've been lurking for a few years, doesn't seem like it is getting quieter. Some people have moved off forums on post exclusively on instagram/equivalent as far as I can tell..

There’s also the advantage of regular FAQs, Errata and of course Chapter Approved.

CA in particular is a powerful tool. Consider CA:18’s new missions. Just a couple of small tweaks, and we’re playing a fairly different game. Acceptable Losses? Little point in trying to table me, because provided I can stack up the VPs early on, I can still win. That of course balances out Power Armies from Tactical Armies. First Strike balances out having the First Turn advantage, as both players can score it.

Does that instantly fix existing problems? No. Of course it doesn’t. But it does open up the field somewhat. The previously ‘Sure Thing’ armies lose their unique appeal, without being made utterly redundant.

Bolter Drill beta rule. And indeed, Beta Rules in general? We’re all now part of the playtesting community. That’s a colossal step forward, and shows their recent engagement drive as more than simple lip service. If the feedback revolves around, say ‘it’s a decent boost, but basic Marines still need mode’, we may see the Beta Rule be adopted, and a further Beta Rule released. Time will tell.

Then there’s the tweaking of points values. We’re into the second batch now, and they do seem to be broadly welcome, whether they go up or down. No, it’s not universal welcome, but hey, you try pleasing a community as big as GW’s

There’s a lot to enjoy at the moment!

 Hollow wrote:
Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

Something something glass houses and stones...

 Hollow wrote:
Forums are dying. That's for sure. Especially the likes of Dakka. Too many toxic people, poor moderation... Etc.

Looking at Alexa traffic stats, Dakka appears to be doing just fine, and there is *way* less drama and ugliness here than on places like Facebook or Reddit, especially if you want to talk about mods, the Dakka mods are comparative saints next to what can be experienced in other online 40k communities.

The only difference is that forums like Dakka/BoC/etc are no longer the *only* places for this sort of community the way they were for many years, and that GW is now actually interacting with their community.

*compares GW's stock prices before 8th edition and currently*
Signs point to no.

Seriously, last summer we got stories of GW doubling it's profits and distributing 5 million pounds of boni across its employees. Yeah, not an indication of 8th edition alone, but it still shows that GW is doing pretty well, which it wouldn't be if its flagship was sinking.

Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

 Overread wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

You forgot the betting shops swooping in to prey on the vulnerable, and charity shops. Those seem to be on the increase.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Sales/Revenue are the only (highly imperfect) proxy, I would guess, but 2017/2018 is almost certainly the peak, with 2018/2019 quite possibly overtaking it (regional variations aside).

As sales go, the nadir was around 2005/2006 and 2006/2007, with 5th Edition giving 40K a new lease on life and a (at the time pretty big, compared to 8th edition minor) resurgence. 2012/2013 with the Dark Vengeance and 6th Ed. release actually was GW's most successful business year up to that point outside of the 2002/2003 LoTR suger-rush and, for all he did wrong, Tom Kirby did a reasonably good job of taking GW from red numbers in the mid-zero years to the success of 2012/2013 and the 6th Ed. hype on the back of the pretty popular 5th Edition.

That said, things went somewhat downhill from there (though never as bad as in the mid-2000s), before recovering with the new CEO and, in no small part, 8th Edition, as well as AoS, the return of specialist games, etc., etc.. starting 2015/2016 or so.

 Haighus wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

You forgot the betting shops swooping in to prey on the vulnerable, and charity shops. Those seem to be on the increase.

That's very true - charity shops which don't pay most of the rates, likely pay little or no rent, often don't pay for stock (or if they do its very little) and have volunteer staff. Betting I've seen some go, but yeah they are on the rise as well and are pretty cheap to run - a few TV's and such then its mostly just processing bets where your customers throw money at you. I've even seen a few pawnshops on the rise here and there.

But your good old corner shop or hobby store or such are basically nearly all gone in many regions - those I see hanging on tend to be owned by older people who bought the shop years ago so at least don't have rent, but the business rates, taxes and overheads are still crippling; esp with so many now buying online where the prices are nearly always cheaper and the range far greater. Heck even a lot of the highstreet names only remain because they've an online store backing them up - the days when a local shop could support itself on local trade are long gone it would seem .

Don't forget Nail Bars!

Can't move in my town for Nail Bars!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don't forget Nail Bars!

Can't move in my town for Nail Bars!

Cheap airbrush supplies? I'll have to try asking in one.