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Plague marines in a rhino would be good for holding down your second objective.
This makes me wonder what will happen when the DG codex is released and plague marines get 2w. Will PMs in a CSM army still be on 1 wound? That would be weird. But equally weird would be PMs being 2w and regular CSM being 1w in the same army...

They must release all the marines codexes soon, because playing TS and CSM now is really bad.

I just listened to a podcast where the guy that runs Almostprogaming on YouTube talked to the highest ranked Chaos player in North America. He is consistently winning with a list that's using mixed Daemons and Thousand Sons.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I just listened to a podcast where the guy that runs Almostprogaming on YouTube talked to the highest ranked Chaos player in North America. He is consistently winning with a list that's using mixed Daemons and Thousand Sons.

Dunno if that's because of the strength of his list or a limited opposition pool. A lot of people are not playing right now because of the Coof.

Don't treat this as a prediction of a future GW release - but I heard a rumor the 9th edition Codex will come alongside the release of another Daemon engine. It got me thinking about the faction overall and how inadequate it's been for several editions.

5th was Daemon Princes and Berzerker Rush, 6th and 7th were a wash, 8th was mostly hyper-powerful HQ soup lists compensating for the lack of good troops options.

Feels like GW is trying to change that with 2W CSMs, which I welcome. But I'm wondering when GW will get around to actually improving the faction as a whole, making every unit playable, figuring out a way to keep our units from being overpriced compared to their loyalist counterparts.

Have not played 9th ed Chaos and won't until I see the Codex. It's just hard for me to envision what a competitive army would look like. I don't see the reason for getting a new one together only to have to change it in a few months.

I'm not too unhappy about our units being weaker than loyalist if they then balance that by giving us really strong psychics and daemon bonus type doctrines.
I'd love it if we could upgrade units with a mark to give them specialisms like the DW codex. Make being chaos actually meaningful so we might be stuck without the fancy new marine toys and primaris but we can improve units like predators and rhinos with hell forgedbuffs or something

Even if I disagree with what way they go, I really hope the choose a direction. Seems they haven't really had a clear concept in mind for many editions now.

 Eldarain wrote:
Even if I disagree with what way they go, I really hope the choose a direction. Seems they haven't really had a clear concept in mind for many editions now.

I think chaos keeps getting caught between two or three competing visions of "what it should be", and is being pulled pillar to post between these. Some people effectively want "loyalist with spikes on", others want a army "Long War" army that effectively time-warped form the Siege of Terra and is loaded with Heresy technology, while a different bunch want a army loaded with deamon-tech. Some want a "Chaos Marines" army that is heavily mixed with other Chaos elements like daemons, cultists, etc, while others want a "pure" marine force. And thats before elements like the Tsons, Death Guard and Demons are expanded form elements of the CSM army into stand-alone forces, removing options out of the "base" CSM line.

in short, it has to be a nightmare to balance all these conflicting ideas of "what CSM are" and come up with a roughly balanced codex. the loyalist marines seem to have solved this tension between the different identities of the sub-factions by spinning most of them off into stand alone forces (Ie, Space Wolves, Blood/Dark Angels, etc). short of doing something similar for all 9 Traitor Legions (which i can't see happening), this slightly confused identity is going to remain in the CSM army.

We know DG are staying standalone. I could see the 4 God aligned Legions getting that treatment. I'd like the other 5 to be shifted to the Supplement approach. More than likely my Word Bearers will remain morale rerolling trash in book though.

So, what is the general opinion of the current chaos Start Collecting box? It seems like the MoP and Obliterators are good. The CSM troops are a matter of preference, but are poorly equipped since the squad is half guns and half swords. I haven't heard much about the Venomcrawler or the Greater Possessed.

I think it has potential! Especially with some light converting. I think if I were trying to get into CSM right now that two Start Collecting boxes (and a few additions) might be the way to go. A little bit of cutting and gluing could get you a pair of 5-man objective sitting CSM squads with a rotor cannon each (clip and swap the business end of the autocannon and the rotor cannon from the Oblit) and a pack of chain axes could turn those melee troops into some Khorne Berzerkers.

Converting one of the MoPs into a Sorcerer for variety and picking up a Lord Discordant would give a decent selection of HQs. Adding in a bunch of Cultists and you could have some variety in your troops. I'm not really sure what to do with the Greater Possessed. Maybe keep a couple to do their job and cut up the others for conversions? 2x Venomcrawlers and the Lord Discordant seem like a decent team up, but I haven't seen anyone running that.

Anyone else put thought into the best way to use the current discount box? If you were starting CSMs today, how would you go about it?

I turned the melee ones into Raptors with 30k bits.

Which is better: 6 Obliterators or 3 Obliterators, 5 Terminators and a Venomcrawler.

Alpha Legion if it matters.

 Groslon wrote:
So, what is the general opinion of the current chaos Start Collecting box? It seems like the MoP and Obliterators are good. The CSM troops are a matter of preference, but are poorly equipped since the squad is half guns and half swords. I haven't heard much about the Venomcrawler or the Greater Possessed.

I think it has potential! Especially with some light converting. I think if I were trying to get into CSM right now that two Start Collecting boxes (and a few additions) might be the way to go. A little bit of cutting and gluing could get you a pair of 5-man objective sitting CSM squads with a rotor cannon each (clip and swap the business end of the autocannon and the rotor cannon from the Oblit) and a pack of chain axes could turn those melee troops into some Khorne Berzerkers.

Converting one of the MoPs into a Sorcerer for variety and picking up a Lord Discordant would give a decent selection of HQs. Adding in a bunch of Cultists and you could have some variety in your troops. I'm not really sure what to do with the Greater Possessed. Maybe keep a couple to do their job and cut up the others for conversions? 2x Venomcrawlers and the Lord Discordant seem like a decent team up, but I haven't seen anyone running that.

Anyone else put thought into the best way to use the current discount box? If you were starting CSMs today, how would you go about it?

With the -1 on swords now I'm finding them more useful than bolters. I charge a lot more with my CSM now in order to capture objectives so the melee equipped marines are fine in the box. The autocannon is okay too. Maybe stick a combi melta on the champ and a melta on another for a squad with 3 chainswords and 2 melta?

Greater possessed are fine but I don't know why you'd need 2 of them let alone 4. You could convert one into some really messed up lord and done of their bits are cool (backpacks are nice for conversions) but if you buy 2 SC boxes I'd be inclined to chuck 3 greater possessed and an obliterator on eBay you'll probably get at least £20 back and you're on your way to buying a box of havocs or something?

Venomcrawlers are decent and if the possible 3+ ws/bs transpires they will be even better as they are an explosion risk that at the moment you need to keep near your lord discordant to keep viable. With 3+ and assault weapons you can just throw them at your opponent as quickly as possible in a divider run...

Are havocs worth using? And if so, are they viable kitted out to kill elite units, or are they best taken for anti-tank?

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Are havocs worth using? And if so, are they viable kitted out to kill elite units, or are they best taken for anti-tank?

havocs are atm a great unit, bit brittle but with support they do alot of things very good.

reaper chaincannons and a bolter, combined with movement tricks or deepstriking via drill and watch the fireworks , especially with Votwl and Cacophony.
Classical Lascannons , well move out of cover and fire unimpeded is really nice for a finishing blow.
Autocannons were really decent last edition for what you paid for a squad of them, with the new HB that maybee now a better anti everything option.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Are havocs worth using? And if so, are they viable kitted out to kill elite units, or are they best taken for anti-tank?

I play black legion and take 4 lascannon havocs every game. Being able to hide them in a rhino or out of sight at deployment, walk them out 6" next to Abaddon to get a target and then drop 3CP (vets & endless cacophony) on them to pretty much guarantee you're gonna force through at least 6 lascannons for your opponent to save turn one is very nice on a 145pt unit.

I find that alpha strike gives you potential to destroy or at least cripple maybe a couple of important tanks/transports/flyers first turn. Turn two Abaddon tends to leave them behind and my buffs tend to move on to something else. They are a little brittle but T5 makes them sturdier than most and their range and cover keeps them safer than you might expect.

It's weird i tend to find that after their explosive start opponents might focus them down. If they do I'm okay with that as they are no longer my primary focus and they divert firepower away from my next setup. If they don't get focussed and survive a few turns they can just steadily take pop shots for the rest of the game. The damage output might fall off without the buffs but they still do steady work and I figure anything else i get from that unit is a bonus because they invariably made their cost back turn one. They will be even better with 2W...

Abaddon303 wrote:
I play black legion and take 4 lascannon havocs every game. Being able to hide them in a rhino or out of sight at deployment, walk them out 6" next to Abaddon to get a target and then drop 3CP (vets & endless cacophony) on them to pretty much guarantee you're gonna force through at least 6 lascannons for your opponent to save turn one is very nice on a 145pt unit.

I find that alpha strike gives you potential to destroy or at least cripple maybe a couple of important tanks/transports/flyers first turn. Turn two Abaddon tends to leave them behind and my buffs tend to move on to something else. They are a little brittle but T5 makes them sturdier than most and their range and cover keeps them safer than you might expect.

It's weird i tend to find that after their explosive start opponents might focus them down. If they do I'm okay with that as they are no longer my primary focus and they divert firepower away from my next setup. If they don't get focussed and survive a few turns they can just steadily take pop shots for the rest of the game. The damage output might fall off without the buffs but they still do steady work and I figure anything else i get from that unit is a bonus because they invariably made their cost back turn one. They will be even better with 2W...

I was running 23+ lascannons with Abaddon most games of 8th. Did really well until Orks / Dark Eldar / Imperial Knights came along.

From what I can tell, horde clearing is more important than anti-tank in 9th edition. Thinking I will be running chaincannon Havocs in the near future.

Thanks for the replies.
I’m torn between which way to go with them. It seems fun using them as anti-horde/more all rounder, but at the same time they seem really handy to equip for anti-tank.
I’ll have to think on this.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm not too unhappy about our units being weaker than loyalist if they then balance that by giving us really strong psychics and daemon bonus type doctrines.
I'd love it if we could upgrade units with a mark to give them specialisms like the DW codex. Make being chaos actually meaningful so we might be stuck without the fancy new marine toys and primaris but we can improve units like predators and rhinos with hell forgedbuffs or something

I honestly have a big issue with CSM units being somehow inherently weaker than loyalist. Since when was this perception ever a cannon thing in lore? CSM turned to the dark gods for power. It seemed ridiculous that are turning to the dark gods, they got weaker instead ...

If anything. Since the imperium is in a technological rut (totally stagnant). Chaos should have more advanced weaponary since they have no qalms with combining warp, magic, forbidden tech and what not into their weapnory. And inherently, CSM units should be stronger state wise because thousands of years in the warp, chaos mutations, dark gods favours, etc etc.

There may be slightly better organisation on the loyalist side, but thats about it. In fact, I would even argue this point. Fear that a powerful chaos lord will lop off your head is a much better motivation for obedience that what a loyalist punishment of what "recite this one thousand times" or "seek penance from your chaplain" is likely to be... So a battalion under a feared chaos lord is pretty obedient to his orders ... if they want to keep their heads...

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Thanks for the replies.
I’m torn between which way to go with them. It seems fun using them as anti-horde/more all rounder, but at the same time they seem really handy to equip for anti-tank.
I’ll have to think on this.

Heavy Support slots are in pretty high demand right now but I am taking a unit with lascannons and a unit with chaincannons. The lascannons start on the board and will usually EC + VotLW something on turn 1 while the chaincannons start in Strategic Reserves and are used mostly to clear infantry units off/near objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/30/the-most-improved-units-from-codex-death-guard/

From WarCom today. It's DG but it looks promising for whenever CSM get updated.

Possessed going to 4 attacks each is pretty interesting and Daemon Engines finally becoming 3+ WS/BS is great news. Obviously we will need to wait for points before making any conclusions but this is a good sign.

Now that chainswords are at AP-1, is it still a big deal to replace berzerkers' pistols with chainaxes? I know that the axes add one to the strength of their attack, and that berzerkers should maximize their melee potential, but I'm not sure if I'm up to the tedious task of cutting off all of the pistols on my melee CSM in order to add axes.

As of right now it is. If you're loathing the swap waiting for the book to make sure it is isn't removed as an option would probably be wise.

Yeah, in some cases, the bolt pistol loadout now actually outperforms the Chainaxe one. If you’re fighting a pure MEQ army, the extra shots will do something and the S6 is wasted. You can pretty much pick them based on aesthetics/what you already have built atm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
4A possessed with the WB strat is going to be nuts. That’s 5xD2 attacks on the charge. Ten, if you throw 3CP at a Khornate unit. Or take a Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemons detachment and get a very good odds on a T1 charge. A Lord with ashen axe, jump pack, and possession WT has a solid chance of joining them and making the enemy stay for a further beating.

Do we know if that change is rolling out before the CSM book?

It’s coming with the DG book which is the next book. So yes it’ll be changed in their book but not the vanilla chaos book, which is sort of funny to me.

Honestly it s pretty annoying what GW pulls with the spread appart releases...

Shouldn't they put the chaos marine book out first and supplement TS, DG, EC, and WE?

xambrien wrote:
Shouldn't they put the chaos marine book out first and supplement TS, DG, EC, and WE?

the god aligned legions arent getting supplements, theyre getting full on standalone codexes.

Probably too much to expect the other 5 to get the supplement treatment. I'm just hoping for an elevation out of meme tier traits and removing the restrictions on what it applies to.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

xambrien wrote:
Shouldn't they put the chaos marine book out first and supplement TS, DG, EC, and WE?

the god aligned legions arent getting supplements, theyre getting full on standalone codexes.

Correct. Death Guard is likely to be adjusted so that it can play perfectly fine as a standalone army without having to mix in the CSM codex.

Has anyone here ran Blood Slaughterers with a Lord Discordant? I am seriously thinking about getting some of them since his buff affects them.