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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.

Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.

THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR

I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it

Rippy is usually offline right now, so not likely to happen right now.

And just because you didn't check the community site to see the Faction Focus article doesn't make it everyone else's fault.

I come to Dakka Dakka because it's what I have time to do.. Community site and Faction Focus are not things I was aware of prior to the last few posts in this thread. Thanks for making some pretty big assumptions though!

As a general response to replies to my earlier post, I will say this:

Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc

And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...

By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...

And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.

I'm 400 miles away from GW HQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.

I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.

Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.

Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.

Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?

Because it's currently AP4 IIRC.

Nope Ap 5. Your thinking of Firwarrior armor which is 4+.

Edit
Thinking about it how will breachers be handled? In the current edition they have an invuln save with a guardian drone of 5+ but an armor save of 4+ so what is going to happen to make them more durable than regular firewarriors?

 MLaw wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.

Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.

THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR

I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it

Rippy is usually offline right now, so not likely to happen right now.

And just because you didn't check the community site to see the Faction Focus article doesn't make it everyone else's fault.

I come to Dakka Dakka because it's what I have time to do.. Community site and Faction Focus are not things I was aware of prior to the last few posts in this thread. Thanks for making some pretty big assumptions though!

Says the person who made assumptions about T'au being off topic....

Yeah, I feel no shame here.

 Gamgee wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.

I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.

Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.

Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.

Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?

Exactly I don't think it should. Wouldn't make sense. Also the Tau longshot pulse rifle not having rend is a good indication it wont since the two were basically identical in 7th barring one having the sniper rule and a longer range.

Then again ACROSS the whole board survivability seems to have increased from ap reductions to saves not always being all or nothing. it seems par for the course.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As a general response to replies to my earlier post, I will say this:

Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc

And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...

By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...

And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.

I'm 400 miles away from GW HQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!

they are also about 20k years old and the bolt gun hasnt seen any changes in a while. then again game wise they seem to want things to die a little less with normal shooting making more specialized weapons useful.

Honestly? I don't mind Nu-marine fluff. The models are nice. The fluff isn't any better or worse than some of the other things we've seen. The rules seem reasonable, especially that their squads seem limited to 5 marines...

Also: I might get crucified for this but... I kind of think we need two separate threads.

Thread 1: Focus on New Edition Rules
Thread 2: Focus on Army Focuses & Fluff Posts & Starter Set / New Sets

I know they are closely intertwined topics, but it's becoming difficult to see opinions on new rules amidst all the Tau/Marine talk.

Sorry for the mildly off-topic post. Please don't make it a big discussion, just a suggestion to Mods/Thread Organizers?

 Gamgee wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.

I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.

Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.

Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.

Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?

Because it's currently AP4 IIRC.

Nope Ap 5. Your thinking of Firwarrior armor which is 4+.

No, I was thinking of the guns.

I could have sworn they had AP4 guns, but then again I don't see Firewarriors locally. One guy is more about the big suits and the other runs a Crisis Suit list with a Fushion Blade commander.

 MLaw wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.

Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.

THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR

I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it

The articles not been out long and OP is but one person... give them a bit of time to keep it updated.

MLaw your dragging this more off topic than anyone else here just stop talking about it please and let us discuss on topic stuff.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.

I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.

Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.

Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.

Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?

Because it's currently AP4 IIRC.

Nope Ap 5. Your thinking of Firwarrior armor which is 4+.

No, I was thinking of the guns.

I could have sworn they had AP4 guns, but then again I don't see Firewarriors locally. One guy is more about the big suits and the other runs a Crisis Suit list with a Fushion Blade commander.

As Gamgee said, they are just AP5 and have been forever.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As a general response to replies to my earlier post, I will say this:

Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc

And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...

By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...

And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.

I'm 400 miles away from GW HQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!

You're making some big leaps in logic there.

Just because you survived being shot doesn't mean you're going to win that fight. Special forces always get the latest gear before the regular troops. And even then soldiers don't often get new gear - they get what has been approved as the load out by the DoD.

New marines are not special forces. The Deathwatch/Grey Knights are which is pissing me off about nu marines all over again. God what stupid fluff man. Special Forces are not used in frontline combat all that much. That's more the rangers deal. Special Forces typically do clandestine military work off the field of battle, but I'm sure the nu-marines will retcon Deathwatch or just supplant them in the Inquisition.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As Gamgee said, they are just AP5 and have been forever.

Well then likely Rend 0 then.

That said, that's fine with me since they'll force more wounds on units than the new Bolter to save against, which means they'll probably come out close to the same against most targets in terms of wounds forced (and more wounds against T5 models).

Breng77 wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:
[spoiler][quote=ClockworkZion 724730 9363880 85f21716889c399cf3cb2fd8181890ae.jpg

...Anyway, I wonder if Stealth Suits or the Ghostkeel will have better stealth saves than the sniper drones or if this will be the "new" stealth. It's one of my favorite part of the Tau's M.O. so I hope it's still a significant thing rather than being a rather low-level modifier.

I mean it ins't that low level of a modifier. -1 to hit (assuming 6s always hit) is typically between a 25-50% increase in survivability (depending on the firing unit). That said the benefit only coming from not being closest hurts things like Stealth suits a lot if it works the same way.

I'd have to run the math, but it still seems like -1 to hit would still be a nerf to the utility of a stealth unit's survivability compared with previous version of the rule. It doesn't seem the same as say, a 2+ cover save which would negate a lot more fire.

Requizen wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.

Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.

The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.

The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.

"I'm allowed to say inane and have no one tell me I'm wrong."

This is not a safe space.

Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.

So, uh, how many nu-marine shots will it take to destroy a landraider? : ) Wait, don't answer that.

Personally, I don't love another gang of +1 Marines running around, but OK. It would be cool if they gave them a disadvantage - these guys are bigger and stronger, but have less experience than others that have fought for centuries. That they can wear your current shoulder pads is a nice modeling touch, and you can give them a Beakie helmet, so I might use them at some point.

Things that stood out from the Tau preview:
Flamers do indeed hit automatically in overwatch, allowing you to build units (like T-Sons) that are practically immune to assault. Meh on that.

Lots of tau can leave combat and shoot you. So much for the "Well, the unit is out of action for a turn" theory. I'm Ok with it though.

Key words do have rules, since Fly has rules, unless the Tau army says "Everyone with Fly can leave combat". IDK. Does this mean that all jump troops can leave combat?

-1 to hit for stealth - well, it works great on Orks. Like alot of things apparently. I preffered the old night fighting rule myself.

 MLaw wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
All this noise about existing Tau stuff that is not rumor related is making it hard for me to find the rules for Primaris Marines (assuming they're actually in this thread). Can you guys please take the off-topic Tau convo to another thread?
..and.. if anyone knows what page whatever rules we know of for the Primaris Marines are please mention it?

Or you could just look on the community page - Comparing the new and old rules is perfectly on topic - not everthing is about Marines.

Wow, rule 1 dude..
The SUBJECT LINE is about Primaris Marines..

No, the SUBJECT is about 8E, in general, with a note that Primaris is merely the latest bit of news for 8E.

There is a separate Primaris Marines thread that should be largely Tau-free.

8E Tau commentary is definitely legit, as would be discussion tied to other earlier 8E topics such as Movement and Blasts and Eldar.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As a general response to replies to my earlier post, I will say this:

Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc

Nope. Custodes

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...

Boltguns will penetrate flak armour 66% of the time. I don't see the issue. Them NOT being able to deflect the odd boltgun shell would be unrealistic. You know, deflected glancing hits and stuff.

Disappointed that you weren't dragging out the good old "Lasguns can now kill Land Raiders! BULL****" argument again while you were throwing your tandrum, would have been the perfect opportunity in between all the ranting with those wierd RL analogies that don't even make much sense for the reasons others have pointed out.

Tresson wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.

Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.

The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.

The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.

"I'm allowed to say inane and have no one tell me I'm wrong."

This is not a safe space.

Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.

Not agreeing that an army is ruined or worthless based on little to no actual rules information is not the same as white knighting.

Emperor's crack I swear some people seem to just want a reason to point fingers and name call.

Tresson wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.

Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.

The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.

The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.

"I'm allowed to say inane and have no one tell me I'm wrong."

This is not a safe space.

Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.

There's a difference between having an opinion and making baseless assumptions and yelling nonsense based on nothing. One should be respected, the other shouldn't be.

Who or what are you arguing about? I'm very confused.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As a general response to replies to my earlier post, I will say this:

Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc

And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...

By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...

I don't feel like that's a fair analogy. For all the jokes about guardsmen, they're not the "average joe". They have had _some_ training. You want to talk Average Joe, think conscripts, and even then it should probably be presumed that they have had some sort of training, albeit far less.

I think it's a great change, if for no other reason than the fact that armor should have some kind of magic "all or nothing" effect where you're either wearing fully effective armor or absolutely no armor at all, whereas in reality, armor should still be somewhat protective, albeit less so against the really large shots.

And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.

I'm 400 miles away from GW HQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!

I'm surprised you're surprised. I don't think we've seen a new codex or rules release that didn't include at least some shiny new must-have somewhere. I can't think of a codex since I started at the start of 5th that didn't include at least one new unit. Embrace the HHHHHobby!

Tresson wrote:


Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.

Go back to the start of that thread and try again.

Any guesses on how "Fly" will be different from "Flyer"? Is a thunderhawk basically a giant tau drone with a good move score?

Bringing it down to grenades anyone notice the frag grenade is d6 ... the battle cannon is d6 and the obv comparison of editions is one was small blast and the other large.

I wonder if the reduced range is gonna mean all guys in a unit can lob one! that'd maybe explain the reduced pistol costs and lead to some scary scary close enagements.

With split fire also the krak grenade is a nice little s6 d3 wounds shot you can chuck at an lighttank/transport before charging a unit

 kestral wrote:
Any guesses on how "Fly" will be different from "Flyer"? Is a thunderhawk basically a giant tau drone with a good move score?

Just that they fly when moving not that they are flying 100% of the time. There probably won't be a 'flyer' rule. Just modifiers based on how that flyer behaves.

Be better if we stuck to the topic rather than trying to tell each other what to talk about.

Ta.

 Latro_ wrote:
Bringing it down to grenades anyone notice the frag grenade is d6 ... the battle cannon is d6 and the obv comparison of editions is one was small blast and the other large.

I wonder if the reduced range is gonna mean all guys in a unit can lob one! that'd maybe explain the reduced pistol costs.

I am thinking they can all lob it given the very short range.

 kestral wrote:
Any guesses on how "Fly" will be different from "Flyer"? Is a thunderhawk basically a giant tau drone with a good move score?

I figure 'Fly' will just allow you to ignore Difficult and Dangerous terrain (if that's still a thing )

 kestral wrote:
Any guesses on how "Fly" will be different from "Flyer"? Is a thunderhawk basically a giant tau drone with a good move score?

That may not be far off. You'll probably be able to ignore any intervening terrain and move up to your maximum move statistic. It would be weird to have a squad of regular guardsmen assault a stormraven for instance though--which could very well be possible unless there are additional rules. Who knows though?