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Who subsequently tricks him into doing Lukas' bidding and then bangs his wife.

sniperjolly wrote:Read the OP, Goku is SPECIFICALLY ruled out of this discussion, by name.

True dat, but considering that:

1. I am the OP and
2. This discussion has completely gone off the rails...

I didn't see any reason why not.

IvanTih wrote:I think the TMs are best treated as background material to fill gaps in our knowledge, but we should be leery of relying on them or elevating them as a go-to source.

Much to my surprise the TMs are considered canon.

Apparently Viacom, the company who own Paramount made a statement via one of their Directors, or at least the Director made a statement that the 'non-fiction' reference books were considered canon in 2005.

Cheers

Andrew

This is getting a bit silly.
Goku?
He cant die cos hes a main character so whats the point in discusing it except for how he would win.

AndrewC wrote:

IvanTih wrote:I think the TMs are best treated as background material to fill gaps in our knowledge, but we should be leery of relying on them or elevating them as a go-to source.

Much to my surprise the TMs are considered canon.

Apparently Viacom, the company who own Paramount made a statement via one of their Directors, or at least the Director made a statement that the 'non-fiction' reference books were considered canon in 2005.

Cheers

Andrew

They're not canon. That was pretty expressly debunked by Paula Block in December 2005 - none of the books are canon, only what is on-screen is. The Jeri Taylor books were at best according to her - quasi canon- and only for as long as she was working on Voyager. Such was backed up by every Trek writer / author on the forum, and has been backed up in the past by Ronald D Moore.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

keezus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Those 22 petatons are kinetic impact,not the explosive warhead IIRC:

Well GAK. That makes the 610 gigaton numbers for torpedoes even more useless vs 40k ship armor if 22 petatons doesn't cover the yield of a novacanon shot. They're already magnitudes too small for capital ships to care about considering that they've been described as being able to survive novacannon shots...

So what the feth is it? Is the novacannon number too high, or the torpedo number too low?

We have Execution Hour showing that Nova cannon can be used as kinetic weapon IIRC.
I'll do more research on Nova,but remember Nova Cannon is AOE weapon.

@Ivan: Got another problem for you:

Battlefleet Gothic Armada wrote:Orks Roks are basically large asteroids hollowed out and fitted with drives, guns and crew quarters... ...For example, in 147.M41 an Imperial cruiser force swept the Kaloth system for Ork pirates and destroyed seven escort class ships and four Roks. In 148.M41 another expedition encountered twenty-one Roks in the same system and was forced to disengage after the battlecruiser Stalwart Warrior suffered crippling damage and was in danger of being overwhelmed by Ork boarding parties.

So we have here Ork ships made of asteroid, apparently able to stand up against IoM a Battlecruiser no less. According to this handy calculator: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html, going with a 1.5km diameter to match the Cobra - it would only take 25.3 gigatons to vaporize the poor bastard assuming a nickel-iron composition. Ones made mostly of ice or rock are only a fraction as tough! This would suggest that it is not a match for the least powerful guns on an IoM ship considering the 610 gigaton torpedo calculation Connor provided, let alone overwhelm an Imperial battle group headed by a battlecruiser, number 21 or not!

-edit- Upping the size to 10km puts the energy to vaporize the ENTIRE asteroid (nickel-iron) is a mere 7.49 teratons - which should be well within the damage output of a Battlecruiser. Of course, melting it to goo takes significantly less energy, and fragmenting the ship via cratering takes even less. (A tiny fraction actually).

IvanTih wrote:How are they aren't meshing good,we have Caves of Ice,Cyrene crust melting and Siege of Terra where Horus boiled Terra's oceans and cracked tectonic plates.
You also forget that those are cyclonic torpedoes who are essentially technobabble weapons,who can be fitted with melta charge to rip planet apart and with warheads used to destroy the atmosphere.

Didn't Caves of Ice involve the whole planet-packed-with-promethium thing?

Has this discussion gone off topic. I was only away for a day!

keezus wrote:@Ivan: Got another problem for you:

Battlefleet Gothic Armada wrote:Orks Roks are basically large asteroids hollowed out and fitted with drives, guns and crew quarters... ...For example, in 147.M41 an Imperial cruiser force swept the Kaloth system for Ork pirates and destroyed seven escort class ships and four Roks. In 148.M41 another expedition encountered twenty-one Roks in the same system and was forced to disengage after the battlecruiser Stalwart Warrior suffered crippling damage and was in danger of being overwhelmed by Ork boarding parties.

So we have here Ork ships made of asteroid, apparently able to stand up against IoM a Battlecruiser no less. According to this handy calculator: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html, going with a 1.5km diameter to match the Cobra - it would only take 25.3 gigatons to vaporize the poor bastard assuming a nickel-iron composition. Ones made mostly of ice or rock are only a fraction as tough! This would suggest that it is not a match for the least powerful guns on an IoM ship considering the 610 gigaton torpedo calculation Connor provided, let alone overwhelm an Imperial battle group headed by a battlecruiser, number 21 or not!

-edit- Upping the size to 10km puts the energy to vaporize the ENTIRE asteroid (nickel-iron) is a mere 7.49 teratons - which should be well within the damage output of a Battlecruiser. Of course, melting it to goo takes significantly less energy, and fragmenting the ship via cratering takes even less. (A tiny fraction actually).

if the asteroid isn't solid(and no ork rok will be) an explosion inside will be more likely to blow a chunk out of the rok instead of penetrating deeper(although all vibrations will remain within the solid matter)

Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)


there is also the ork way of "i think it can, therefor it can"

Ork tech works wonders when you belive in it

Ork tech is probably the worst benchmark for actual physics ever. I mean, they can pilot airplanes in SPACE.

keezus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Those 22 petatons are kinetic impact,not the explosive warhead IIRC:

Well GAK. That makes the 610 gigaton numbers for torpedoes even more useless vs 40k ship armor if 22 petatons doesn't cover the yield of a novacanon shot. They're already magnitudes too small for capital ships to care about considering that they've been described as being able to survive novacannon shots...

So what the feth is it? Is the novacannon number too high, or the torpedo number too low?

-edit-

Goku from the end of DragonBall could solo 40k, considering that since (base form) Frieza can do this:



(That's Death Star Superlaser level power there...)

And Goku has surpassed him so far in terms of power and durability that he could effortlessly defeat Frieza with his base attack.

-edit 2-



Well... apparently even base form Vegeta can do it. Yeah so Goku could probably easily solo. No prob.

Lulz.

Chouginga Gurren Lagann.

This thing can attack every point in space-time simultaneously, and lower the probability of the enemy dodging.

Oh, and it's the size of a galaxy.

If they try to take the fight to the warp, there's always its big brother, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.



This one uses galaxies as shruiken.

Somehow I think Spiral Power is a tad overpowered.

yup. there broken.

Necroman wrote:

IvanTih wrote:How are they aren't meshing good,we have Caves of Ice,Cyrene crust melting and Siege of Terra where Horus boiled Terra's oceans and cracked tectonic plates.
You also forget that those are cyclonic torpedoes who are essentially technobabble weapons,who can be fitted with melta charge to rip planet apart and with warheads used to destroy the atmosphere.

Didn't Caves of Ice involve the whole planet-packed-with-promethium thing?

Yes,that's why they only caused extinction level event.

keezus wrote:@Ivan: Got another problem for you:

Battlefleet Gothic Armada wrote:Said.

That 610 gigaton is from GW,1st edtion of Space Hulk not Connor.
I am aware of fact that torpedoes are one of weaker weapons,again we have multiple sources which indicate teraton firepower.
Also we have firepower feat from Tales of Heresy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's some info from Connor.

Depth and Durability of Constructions

Along with complete sterilization, it is known that many Imperium worlds are heavily built up city worlds (forge worlds and hive worlds in particular) much like coruscant (or the continetnal fortresses of Terra.) Many of those worlds may also extend hundreds or thousands of meters underground (shelters and defense installations, mines, other facilities, ,etc. Such as in Necropolis, Execution Hour, Caves of Ice, SHadow Point, etc.) In addition, the construction methods and materials available to the Imperium (to build those shelters, hive cities, etc.) are considerably greater than our own, ,and many facilities (Government capitols, hive cities, Arbites precints, etc.) may have their own forcefield defenses (Execution Hour, NightBringer, Necropolis, etc.) Much like with the Star Wars Base Delta Zero attack can require that signifigantly more firepower be applied to such destruction.

In terms of facilities, Mike's Base Delta Zero Page covers this idea. In that page, Mike mentions that the destruction of hardened facilities in modern nuclear attack simulations use a 2000 psi overpressure to ensure target destruction. The energy input figure he comes up with is 2e25 joules for this. This is only a bit below the "complete sterilization" figure above, and is (as Mike notes) quite conservative given its basis on "modern" material sand construction techniques. It could easily be an order of magnitude greater, much as it would be for Star Wars BDZ.

Additionally, there is the consideration of reaching mines or shelters. As the classical "BDZ" (the 1 hour/1 meter melting depth) calcs have traditonally indicated, reaching deeper into the planet naturally increases the energy requirement (even irerespective of melting or vaporization.) extending 100 meters down increases the energy figure by 100x, and over a kilometer depth by a factor of 1000x. Considering that some sources indicate planets like Cyrene are reduced to a molten state, this is a valid consideration. (Cyrene as a calc will be considered later.) Some may argue that "crust melting" may not be an accurate figure, and this has some merit, but there are a number of considerations to bear in mind. First, in terms of an extinction-level event, indirect effects (heating of the atmosphere by hypervelocity ejecta, for example) and inefficiencies can lead to "melting" of the crust even if the beams themselves do not do it. Asteroid impacts have shown that a substantial degree of melting (and vaporization) also occur with such events. Beam weapons such as lances are even more likely to result in this. Cyrene also indicates "melting" is a valid benchmark, as do other examples where energy weapons are mentioned in bombardment roles (Plasma weapons in execution hour, Plasma weapons melting a hive city in annihilation squad, etc.)

And as mentioned before, some Tyranids are known to bury underground to escape Exterminatus, so more extensive bombardment may be required to root them out. Tyranid infestations in the process of draining a planet of its biomass may also invade deep into a planet's crust. And as mentioned before, the Necrons tend to inhabit tombs buried many kilometers beneath a planet.

Even mundane Imperium structures like hive cities can reach kilometers beneath a planet (Kill Team), and many kinds of facilities (defence stations, mines, bunkers,etc.) can extend many hundreds of meters below ground regardless.

Exterminatus via conventional bombardment has been used on a number of occasions: The most obvious example is Cyrene, of course, but it has also been mentioned with regard to 56-Izar (Xenos). The planet attacked in Fire Warrior too was bombarded by conventional weaponry as well. The sterilization of the planet in Caves of Ice can technically be termed exterminatus even if it was not directly labeled so, and involved conventional bombardment as well. This meshes very well with the Battlefleet Gothic references to mass drivers and fusion bombs being used to conduct Exterminatus (alongside Virus bombs.)

IwanTiH:

Regarding Firepower Calculations:

*The 610 gigaton torpedo was presented in "Space Hulk" 1st Edition. It was also retconned out in the following editions of the game.

*Cyclonic torpedoes are totally technobabble weapons. They cannot be used to quantify DET (Direct Energy Transfer) firepower of lances, etc.

*What calculation establishes that the Nova Cannon is 22 petatons? Applying a 5-ton shell mass ("multi-ton" per BFG magazine #15) and muzzle velocity of 5,000 kilometers per second (as of "Warriors of Ultramar") we get 6.25e16 Joules of kinetic energy. Around 1.5 megatons if I got my conversions right. This is almost ten orders of magitude lower than your number. Additionally, Nova cannon shells per BFG are "more powerful than a dozen plasma bombs." Which are described thusly:

Rogue Trader Tabletop wrote:A plasma bomb is a large missile typically used by or against spacecraft. They are also used for planetary sieges. The missile energises at launch, converting into a mass of seething plasma - each missile becomes a ball of boiling energy sufficient to melt a city-block. As it converts to plasma, the missile divides into 6 fragments, this enables the plasma to spread out and saturate its target. A target under plasma attack becomes a blazing inferno which only the very fortunate survive.

This is not multiteratons. More like kilotons. You can blow out a city block with conventional explosives - it was done in WWII.

*"Caves of Ice" was dialogue only talking about a firepower that was never demonstrated in the story. Further, Cain made two separate statement:

Caves of Ice wrote:Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.

A flotilla of battleships can level a continent (timeframe and weapons used unspecified). A couple of lance salvos can destroy a Necron base (which is not the same thing).

*Please present proof that Cyrene's crust was melted (as well as the timeframe and ships involved).

As for counter arguments:

*Generally when Exterminatus is mentioned, it requires special (=technobabble) weapons such as virus bombs or cylonic torpedoes. If brute force firepower can do it, why do they need that rare tech for it?

*The example of firepower against a small Rok from "Shadow Point" militates further against teratons. Dozens of torpedoes required against the Rok. Which takes perhaps megatons to fragment according to the asteroid calculator mentioned earlier in this thread (vaporization is not necessary to destroy it, and indeed gross overkill).

*In the Blood Angels books fusion rockets in the megaton range can utterly destroy a Chaos warship in four blasts. (Although that ship had its shields down.)

*Finally, numerous sources ("Execution Hour", "Shadow Point" and many others specify that 40k warships have enough firepower to "destroy a city". With "sustained" bombardment, no less. Which is a rather interesting contradiction to the multi-teraton per shot claims.

**

Regarding power generation:

*Will you please present your evidence that plasma generators draw energy from the Warp? To my knowledge there is nothing to imply or suggest such in the canon.

*To boot, "Shadow Point" speaks explicitly of "plasma fusion" (in plasma torpedoes) and the "Blood Angels" series clearly and unambiguously shows warships (from battle barges to battleships to cruisers and frigates) to use fusion power. No mention of exotic fuels or Warp energy.

*The "stellar energy levels" from "Execution Hour" is obvious hyperbole. Its literal interpretation is contradicted by the very same book later mentioning that the "Lord Solar Macharius" (the warship with the "stellar" energies) is capable of destroying a whole city with "sustained" bombardment. If even half a per cent of e26 Joules ("stellar" energy taken literally) was ported to weapons, it would not destroy cities with "sustained" bombardment. More like destroy continents in a volley.

**

Regarding FTL speeds:

*Can you provide the quote establishing Necron speed?

*What do you base your Warp speed estimate on? In both "Space Fleet" and "Rogue Trader" it takes years to cross the galaxy. In the "Eisenhorn" books it takes a very fast ship thirty weeks to travel from Helican Sub-Sector to the Saruthi (which are on the Sector's border). Sectors as we know from BFG, of which Sub-sectors are a smaller part, are cubes 200 by 200 light years. This gives rather different figures from your estimate.

Regarding STL speeds/accelerations:

*"Sabbat Martyr" is, again, an obvious outlier. For just one thing it begs the question how a ship can even maneuver, much less hit anything, at those speeds with human reaction times, and especially without FTL sensors (which the Imperium doesn't have). For another, it meshes very badly with the typical combat ranges of "tens of thousands of kilometers" ("Shadow Point", "Execution Hour", BFG rulebook) or the torpedoes which travel at tens of meters/second ("Execution Hour" again).

*In the novels it routinely takes ships days (sometimes even weeks) to move between planets within the same system. Examples: Ultramarines novels, Angels of Darkness, aforementioned BFG duology ("Execution Hour/Shadow Point"). Sometimes it takes weaks or even months ("The Bleeding Chalice"). The "Rogue Trader" novels by Andy Hoare has max acceleration a such a low it foesn't hurt the crew when they use it and inertial compensators are off.

*Finally, the "Rogue Trader" RPG book (not the same as the above, please note) outright states max accelerations for capships is below 10 G.

**

And from a personal standpoint, a nice pointer. When you copypaste stuff from other sites, you should say it isn't your own work. Stardestroyer.Net people in particular are anal about copyright and have been known to ban people for plagiarism for much less in the past.

**

Best regards,

Commissar Streck



Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."

From Connor.

I would generally assume "close to light-speed" to mean at least 80-90% of C. The size of a Nova cannon shell is never given precisely, but the diameter of the shell is given in other sources (50 meters in Warriors of Ultramar, though a 30 meter diameter nova cannon is mentioned. Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A 50 meter diameter shell would be 100-150 meters long.)

Example: Going by a 50x150 meter shell made of iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive o funknown type and density) fired at ~90%of c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a KE of 9e25 joules, putting Nova cannons well into the petaton range (~21 petatons roughly here.) In the literature, Nova Cannons are implied to "charge up" for firing just after loading, implying that the gun is charged in a matter of seconds at most.

It is also interesting to note that the recoil generated needs to be compensated for by the engines. This suggests that the recoil/output of the Nova cannon is of comparable magnitude to the output/thrust of the engines. And if you know the specifics of one, you can probably estimate the other (IE figure acceleration from ship mass and the recoil of a Nova cannon.) Taking the shell example above, the momentum would be 4.77e17 kg*m/s. If the ship in question has a 5000 gee acceleration rate the ship itself masses somethign like 9.5 billion tons. A mass far greater than implied by a number of other sources, but I tend to believe 40K ship masses are dramatically under-stated in the vast majority of cases. Given the estimated accelerations from other sources like Sabbat Martyr or Grey Knights, and estimate the mass from starship dimensions, the output of engines for a cruiser/battlecruiser grade would be high TT/low petaton range easily (consistent with the "stellar scale" outputs mentioned in Execution Hour for warp engines, which aren't as energy intensive as the realspace engines as per Ravenor which does confirm the estimates.

The explosion of a Nova cannon shell ought to be at least comparable in magnitude ot the energy expended in getting the projectile to the target(s), which suggests its petaton range, if not significantly higher. Note that if this is the case, the energy density of the explosive, like plasma reactors, must be many many times greater than conventional nuclear fusion or even antimatter, for it to be equal to or greater than what a near-c projectile provides. Then again, 40K is not a stranger to "power sources with insanely high energy densities." either.

Note that "plasma bombs" is another term used in earlier sources for torpedoes, so this might imply that a Nova cannon is equivalent to a dozen torpedoes (a double salvo, in other words.) I do find it odd they say "force", as this implies that a Nova bomb detonation has some sort of blast/pressure effects like a conventional explosive (nuclear/antimatter warheads would not have blast effects, ,becuase the blast is a result of atmospheric detonations.) which may hint at some sort of exotic mechanism, perhaps like a seismic charge (or maybe a multi-function warhead). anyhow, this would imply plasma torpedoes are in the teraton range or so (double or triple) assuming a multi-petaton nova cannon.

One thing that bothers me about Nova cannon - why do they mount only a single cannon? Given the size/diameters of the weapon, and that virtually every other 40K weapon is usually a multiple mount (torpedoes, lances, and weapons batteries are all aggregates of multiple weapons.) but why not nova cannon? It would make a bit more sense to fire at least several shells (imrpove chances of hitting and coverage, ,for one thing, as well as giving the ability to engage multiple targets.) And it owuld make interception harder. (though the combined mass/velocity of the shell may already assure that.) Also, why not make it guided? They can make guided shotgun shells, bolter rounds, autogun rounds, guided tank and artillery shells. Hell weapons battery cannons and bombardment cannon are implied to use some sort of targeted/guided shell... but why not Nova cannon?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imperial Guard codex from 2nd edition states 10k ly in 10-40 days.
Then we have examples from Nemesis when it's said that Vengeful Spirit has energy cannon capable of boiling oceans.
Necron FTL come from quote(cross galaxy in a blink of an eye),it's the only source on them and widely accepted as their speed until new sources come.
And tell me how was 610 recontennted,in later editions we have same Hulk and same floor plans.

IvanTih wrote:I would generally assume "close to light-speed" to mean at least 80-90% of C. The size of a Nova cannon shell is never given precisely, but the diameter of the shell is given in other sources (50 meters in Warriors of Ultramar, though a 30 meter diameter nova cannon is mentioned. Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A 50 meter diameter shell would be 100-150 meters long.)

"Close to lightspeed" apparently means 5,000 kps according to "Warriors of Ultramar". It's a couple of % of c so I guess that would be acceptable.

The diameter of the shell is not given in the book he quotes. He is mistaken about that. The breech of the cannon is 50 meters, but that is quite another thing.

Example: Going by a 50x150 meter shell made of iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive o funknown type and density) fired at ~90%of c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a KE of 9e25 joules, putting Nova cannons well into the petaton range (~21 petatons roughly here.) In the literature, Nova Cannons are implied to "charge up" for firing just after loading, implying that the gun is charged in a matter of seconds at most.

He is literally pulling the mass figures out of thin air. BFG magazine, as noted, gives masses as "multi-tons". Not hundreds of thousands of tons. 770,000 tons is the mass of a 40k battleship, not a shell. (An ironclad was at 400,000 tons in "Eisenhorn")

The rest is just unjustified speculation continuing from the figures he made up.

Imperial Guard codex from 2nd edition states 10k ly in 10-40 days.

That means they can do it sometimes, probably under good conditions. I don't see why it would necessarily be typical, especially when we have many other examples of much slower speeds.

Then we have examples from Nemesis when it's said that Vengeful Spirit has energy cannon capable of boiling oceans.

And what about the many examples of lower firepower I mentioned? There are disrepancies, but that doesn't mean the highest figure is automatically right.

Necron FTL come from quote(cross galaxy in a blink of an eye),it's the only source on them and widely accepted as their speed until new sources come.

And where does that quote come from? I've heard it said a lot, but never the source.

And tell me how was 610 recontennted,in later editions we have same Hulk and same floor plans.

Because the later editions specifically chose to drop the number in question?

**

Best regards,

Commissar Streck



Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."

Almost every source says close to the light speed except Warriors of Ultramar.
Quote comes from Necron codex.
Problem with 40k is that it doesn't have coherent cannon policy.

IvanTih wrote:Almost every source says close to the light speed except Warriors of Ultramar.

5,000 kps is almost 2 % of lightspeed. That should qualify as "close" if we're dealing with authors who aren't scientists. There is not necessarily any contradiction.

Quote comes from Necron codex.

What edition and what page, please?

Problem with 40k is that it doesn't have coherent cannon policy.

Well, you can say that again ...

**

Best regards,

Commissar Streck



Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."

Quote is from current Necron codex,don't know which page.

OK, thanks.

How do you feel about my other arguments in my first post, by the way?

**

Best regards,

Commissar Streck



Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."

IvanTih wrote:Problem with 40k is that it doesn't have coherent cannon policy.

Considering that everyone acknowledges that 40k's numbers are all over the place, wouldn't it make sense to deliberately disallow any instances where calculated numbers from a few examples are contradicted by evidence from many examples?

There was an example in the earlier Star Trek thread about void shield output and how it cratered a planet. The energy needed was in the magnitude of 100x SOL output, and was disallowed, as it made no sense, considering that the novacannon's 22PT kinetic output was at 0.1 SOL output and all energy weapons were weaker.

I think the whole Rok issue highlights the problem well as no amount of structural improvements are going to increase the strength of the base rock - reinforcing the entire hull would cause the ship to cease being a rok. As well, since torpedoes ignore shields, so having shielding doesn't change the fact that a Rok according to calculations, it can't take any punishment from the IoM's weakest weapons. Cannon, unfortunately, states that they do take punishment and can in fact mount enough offense to be a serious threat!

Commissar Streck wrote:OK, thanks.

How do you feel about my other arguments in my first post, by the way?

**

Best regards,

Commissar Streck



Thought of the day: "The Pokemon cartoon is heretical."

They are pretty good,but to solve this you need to go to the StarDestroyer.net or SpaceBattles.com..

IvanTih wrote:
They're not canon. That was pretty expressly debunked by Paula Block in December 2005 - none of the books are canon, only what is on-screen is. The Jeri Taylor books were at best according to her - quasi canon- and only for as long as she was working on Voyager. Such was backed up by every Trek writer / author on the forum, and has been backed up in the past by Ronald D Moore.

Can I also point out that in the same statment she also said that the first series was also non-canon. She was talking about how GR saw things. Your quote was also refers to fiction, ie the story books,

"The tech manuals are written by ST production staff, same as the Encyclopedia (Mike Okuda). Since their contents report on what is canon, they are technically canon." - Harry Lang, Senior Director of Viacom Consumer Products Interactive division (January 2005)

IF what we see on screen is the only canon allowed, which version do we use, considering we now have 2 alternates. The prime, or the Bad Robot Version?

Cheers

Andrew

Grey Templar wrote:Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)

Ork force fields are the best in the galaxy if I remember my BFG fluff correctly.

Even i know that is bs. I the best shields in the galaxy are probably the Tau, or the Eldar. The Most Powerful are the Necrons.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)

Ork force fields are the best in the galaxy if I remember my BFG fluff correctly.

Yes,thank the Old Ones.
A massive Ork Waagh!(where Orks unite) would stomp a fair number of universes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the 610 gigaton torpedo.

The rule is that things are canon (note the spelling - "canon" and "cannon" are two different things) unless explicitly contradicted, or in the case of certain Black Library materials marked with the Heretic Tomes symbol. If, for instance, we were to have two mentions of the same Titan, but one of those marks it as a different class to the other mention (and it would have to be explicitly the same one), that would be a contradiction (ignoring for a moment the Case of the Incredible Shrinking Imperator from the Heresy novels).

The figures for the Hellfire torpedoes being uncontradicted, they stand.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Ork Roks are also fitted with lots of force fields and sturctural reinforcement(as such as ork tech can provide)

Ork force fields are the best in the galaxy if I remember my BFG fluff correctly.

Roks are rated at Shields 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IvanTih wrote:The rule is that things are canon (note the spelling - "canon" and "cannon" are two different things) unless explicitly contradicted, or in the case of certain Black Library materials marked with the Heretic Tomes symbol. If, for instance, we were to have two mentions of the same Titan, but one of those marks it as a different class to the other mention (and it would have to be explicitly the same one), that would be a contradiction (ignoring for a moment the Case of the Incredible Shrinking Imperator from the Heresy novels).

The figures for the Hellfire torpedoes being uncontradicted, they stand.

Ok. So by your logic, since the hellfire torpedo figures are uncontested (i.e. set in stone)...

1. Ork Roks are more durable than the figures for asteroid durability suggest, as real world asteroids would be one-shot by a single hellfire torpedo. As Ork Roks are shown being able to fight evenly with the Imperium, in order for them to be able to survive torpedo hits, they would need to be about a million times more durable than the rock it is made of, otherwise, the torpedoes are too strong as stated. Unfortunately as lance and massed ordinance fire moves the weapon yields into the TT range - BFG: Armada suggests that the Roks need to be able to survive being one shot by these as well - as the Roks are written as capable of winning a fight vs an Imperial battle group. These two pieces of information suggest that an Ork Rok is actually over a billion times more durable than the Asteroid it is made out of... which brings us to the next problem...

2. Considering that in real-world terms, a 3x difference in magnitude (10^3) is equal to the difference of automatic weapons fire (AK47) vs a 120mm tank round - (Modern armor is pretty much impervious to AK-47 rounds, not so much from modern 120mm rounds) - If capital ships can survive getting hit by low Petaton / High-Mid Teraton level weapons, this would suggest that they would be impervious to torpedoes at the stated yield - even after assuming that the yield of energy weapons is halved by void shielding (since the disparity between the main weapons and torpedoes is over 10^3x and is over 10^5x for the big guns. However, as you've stated that torpedo figures stand - AND we KNOW that torpedoes can damage capital ship armor (and this is backed up by lots of evidence) - there can only be two outcomes here:

(a) Adamantium armor is less durable than stated - However, this would result in everything getting one-shot by the bigger guns (assuming that those numbers also stand), as in real world terms, anything that can be damaged by an AK-47 will be MANGLED by a tank shell... So if the torpedo number is right, that means that the big guns are too strong.
(b) If the main gun numbers are right, the torpedoes are too weak!



We can't assume the armor to have variable durability as measuring damage has been the only way to back calculate yields.

Unless you can reconcile this fundamental problem for me, I don't see how any of the provided calculations and values can be admissible considering that the calculations themselves contradict each other. 40k technology may ignore the laws of physics for power generation, but these inconsistencies in damage levels and durability can not be ignored. You've been hammering the proponents of the other universes to stay consistent - IMO it is unacceptable for you to not do the same in return.

It's not my fault(firepower thing),ask most people on StarDestroyer and SpaceBattles and they'll give same statements(less or more) as I.
Only way to be sure.

Why not just ask the GW Customer Service the question How much damage does an Imperial Cruiser do?