Melissia ranks the codices/factions

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**Melissia**

Flaming_Spider wrote:They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

Why should their units be spelled differently? That's the way the Orks say it. Shoota = "Shooter", a catchall term for a wide variety of weapons of roughly assault rifle size (well, assault rifle for an Ork, LMG/HMG for a human).

Should we start calling Tau Fire Warrior squad leaders "Fire Warrior Sergeants" instead of "Shas-ui"?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necroman wrote:but it really would have been nice to see more of what you thought of the fluff.

I prefer not to think about Matt Ward's "fluff". You probably noticed this in the Blood Angels review as well.

**Necroman**

Obviously, the Space Wolves are erudite gentlemen, the Orks are totally serious and use elegant technology, and the Grey Knights are secretly horribly weak and just act intimidating to scare away the IRS.

@Melissa: Well, there's plenty of other Space Marine fluff other than Ward's. I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether you thought it was stupid or appealed to you.

**Asherian Command**

Melissia wrote:5: SPACE MARINES

And here it is. The big one, in GW's eyes. It pretty much defines what a fifth edition codex is-- no unit is truly useless, there's multiple competitive builds and a huge variety of builds period, a huge variety of units to choose from, representing a very large variety of forces in a single codex. This is, in part, the reason why fifth edition rocks.

While it has its limitations (such as no all-terminator armies, for example), it's still the ideal by which all other fifth edition codices are compared to, and indeed by which all other non-fifth edition codices are compared to when it comes to playing them in fifth edition. While I'm iffy about using special characters-- and I really wish they just used something like Sagas as previously mentioned-- they're still at least an easy way to ensure that people know what your army can do just by looking at it (in this case, by looking at its HQ models). While many people miss fourth edition's customization, very few people would argue against the inclusion of such units as Thunderfire cannons, Ironclad Dreadnaughts, Land Speeder Storms, Sternguard and Vanguard (okay, the Vanguard are hard to use properly, but not everything can be a perfect hit), cheap TH/SS terminators, the inclusion of the Master of the Forge and his bringing back of hte Conversion beamer, etc. It brought a lot of new stuff in, as well as some of the older stuff that was missing.

The army can be built around scouts, or tacticals, and provides a huge amount of support options for these units. Or alternatively one could minimize their scout/tactical purchases (which I dislike seeing, but it does add to variety) and focus on the support functions themselves, leading to a Space Marine list that doesn't have to look the same twice every time you play it while still being quite competitive even with dramatic changes to the list. It's also part of the reason why fifth edition sucks, but I blame that on Matt Ward more than anything else. But marinewank aside, it's viable fluff and offers a huge amount of customization with widely varying DIY chapters that let you completely bypass the spank and produce something completely of your own (this compared to Space Wolves, who in the fluff don't have any descendant chapters, or Dark/Blood Angels, whose limited descendant chapters tend to be cursed like the Lamentors).

All in all, as I said, this is the codex every other fifth edition codex is going to be compared to. And there's a reason for this-- because it's a damned good codex with one of the most balanced and interesting army lists yet released. So yeah, Space Marines of all factions gets the fifth slot.

Nice. I agree. But the top four are going to imperial guard, orcs, witch hunters, and i forget the last one...

**Brother-Thunder**

Flaming_Spider wrote:
Melissia wrote:Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do?

They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

yes, and space zombies from the far past that harvest souls with molecular flayers is not?

Forgive me for playing Devil's Advocate.

**Necroman**

Asherian Command wrote:Nice. I agree. But the top four are going to imperial guard, orcs, witch hunters, and i forget the last one...

Eldar.

Who I hate, but whatever. The Eldar just tick me off.

**Asherian Command**

Necroman wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:Nice. I agree. But the top four are going to imperial guard, orcs, witch hunters, and i forget the last one...

Eldar.

Who I hate, but whatever. The Eldar just tick me off.

Probably because your a necron player?

**Melissia**

Necroman wrote:I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether [...] it [...] appealed to you.

Overall, it doesn't.

I don't really like superhuman supersoldiers in science fiction. I prefer to see humans struggling against monstrous, superhuman enemies. To me, 40k is encapsulated by the image of Imperial Guard fighting a relentless, unending battle against Orks. That is what defines 40k for me. Space Marines are unimportant.

**Flaming_Spider**

Brother-Thunder wrote:
Flaming_Spider wrote:
Melissia wrote:Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do?

They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

yes, and space zombies from the far past that harvest souls with molecular flayers is not?

Forgive me for playing Devil's Advocate.

At least it fits with the grimdarkness of 40k and takes itself seriously. Necrons aren't played as comedic relief, while Orks are. It's that part that bothers me most, that they treat Orks like a joke, that they're there just to be funny.

**Brother-Thunder**

Flaming_Spider wrote:
Brother-Thunder wrote:
Flaming_Spider wrote:
Melissia wrote:Why should an alien species with widely different biology speak the exact same way we do?

They shouldn't, but the codex should not be written like that. Their unit names should make sense and be spelled correctly, and their fluff is ridiculous.

yes, and space zombies from the far past that harvest souls with molecular flayers is not?

Forgive me for playing Devil's Advocate.

At least it fits with the grimdarkness of 40k and takes itself seriously. Necrons aren't played as comedic relief, while Orks are. It's that part that bothers me most, that they treat Orks like a joke, that they're there just to be funny.

And a tide of bloodthirsty green-skinned monsters that want nothing more than to kill you for laughs is not scary?

Yeah, they talk funny. So do many people.

**Melissia**

You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

**Necroman**

Asherian Command wrote:Probably because your a necron player?

No, I just really hate the Eldar.

I mean, their visual style is garish and filled with bright colors, yet their personalities tend towards the ridiculously somber. They tend to be manipulative to the extreme. Their hats look stupid, their guns look like toys, and I always hate elves. Oh, and they created a Chaos God of sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll.

Like I said, I just don't like Eldar.

**Melissia**

That's funny, I really do like Eldar. As long as I ignore the "oh, we are a dying race, oh woe is me, I shall now cry!" aspect of them they're damned cool to me. And, conveniently enough, I do ignore that part!

**Manchu**

asimo77 wrote:Ok I don't like orks because of their comedic slant, and ramshackle appearance- Would you disagree that they do not look ramshackle and do not have a comedic slant?

The idea that Orks are only ramshackle-looking comedians is simply incorrect. The way that you trivialize them indicates that you haven't read much about them.

I don't like SW because of the viking and party/drinking all the time thing- Would you disagree that vikings and parties are not part of SW?

You called them boorish, womaninzing broskis who attacked the Thousand Sons without cause. Also incorrect. And it also indicates that you don't know very much (or really anything) about them.

I don't like GK because they are the elite of the elite and nearly infallaible- Would you say GK are not the most elite of the imperium?

Sure GK are elite but you're missing the point again: they're super (x2) secret daemon killers, and so they are elite.

**Flaming_Spider**

Melissia wrote:You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

But why give them ridiculous accents if it's not meant to be funny? Nobody else has that. The other races have their own languages that sound excellent, not garbled English.

**Brother-Thunder**

Flaming_Spider wrote:
Melissia wrote:You can play Orks as comic relief all you want.

I, however, will not do so. I believe Orks are FAR more interesting when taken completely seriously. And therefor that is what I do. If you think Orks would be more interesting if they were taken seriously and yet you're not able to do so, that is your failing, not the faction's.

But why give them ridiculous accents if it's not meant to be funny? Nobody else has that. The other races have their own languages that sound excellent, not garbled English.

they talk funny because A) their mouths are not exactly designed for talking like a human would.

and B) they are not much smarter than their squig cusions.

**Melissia**

You're using their accents with a human voice, not an Ork voice.

I quote: "When an Ork speaks, it is in a slow, gruff tone thick with saliva and gutteral curses. His words are sparse, brutal, and straight to the point."

**Necroman**

Melissia wrote:That's funny, I really do like Eldar. As long as I ignore the "oh, we are a dying race, oh woe is me, I shall now cry!" aspect of them they're damned cool to me. And, conveniently enough, I do ignore that part!

Oh, thanks for reminding me of another part I hate.

It's like depression has become a species-wide trait.

**Flaming_Spider**

Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

**Brother-Thunder**

Flaming_Spider wrote:Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

They have an incredibly crude language of their own.

Many speak low-gothic to humans because humans understand insults in low-gothic.

**Asherian Command**

Flaming_Spider wrote:Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

They do have a language....

**Melissia**

They do. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an example of the Ork language at work-- his name is taken from Ork language, not Low Gothic.

Thing is, they like to insult their enemies. So they use Low Gothic when fighting humans. And probably some debased form of Eldar when they fight that race. And same with Tau.

**Flaming_Spider**

Asherian Command wrote:
Flaming_Spider wrote:Then here is my question: Why make them talk like morons instead of inventing a language like they did with every other race?

They do have a language....

Then why not use that instead of playing bad pronunciation for laughs?
Especially in the codex, unit names, for example.

**Necroman**

Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

**Manchu**

Necroman wrote:It's like depression has become a species-wide trait.

But remember: Eldar are not actually somber all the time. They are given to wild mood swings, by human standards. By comparison, humans are utter stoics. The Craftworld Eldar try to keep things under wraps by their strict devotion to one pursuit at a time. But some, especially the warriors, become emotionally obsessed with their paths. Others can't suffer themselves to adopt any path and wander around the Webway. I think this is one of the most interesting things about them.

Regarding Orks: that Cockney accent isn't just funny. To Brits, it has other associations.

**Flaming_Spider**

Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

**Brother-Thunder**

Flaming_Spider wrote:
Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

if you want to argue this, then I would say 40K would suffer from lack of Orks. Even some of the most

up, sad stories out there tend to have their funny moments. It adds variety.

**Asherian Command**

Flaming_Spider wrote:
Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

Attention attention! Please reframe from calling the orcs comedians! They enslave entire planets. They are pretty evil dude, you guys have obviously never read any of their lore. or haven't paid attention to their lore.

**Flaming_Spider**

Asherian Command wrote:
Flaming_Spider wrote:
Necroman wrote:Because, *Gasp* Games Workshop thinks the Orks are hilarious, as do most of the playerbase. That's why they use the language to get laughs.

And that is the point I am making. They do not fit with 40k because they are played for laughs. 40k doesn't need comedic relief. The players are comedy enough.

Attention attention! Please reframe from calling the orcs comedians! They enslave entire planets. They are pretty evil dude, you guys have obviously never read any of their lore. or haven't paid attention to their lore.

I have read their fluff, and yes, they are terrifying. It's the comedic aspect that bothers me so much. They should be scary, but they're not, because they sound like idiots.

**Melissia**

And I disagree. They fit perfectly into 40k, as without them there IS no 40k. Without Orks, where are the endless barbarians constantly battering the Imperium and draining its resources?

The armies of Chaos? Oh please, they can barely even threaten a single sector of space at a time. Thirteen failed black crusades and they've just barely managed to get a foothold on Cadia.

The Tyranid hive fleets? Without the Orks to take up so much of the Imperium's resources, the Tyranids would fall before the Imperium's overwhelming firepower like wheat to a scythe.

Eldar? Tau? Pah, they don't even damn qualify, they're struggling to survive, nevermind to conquer the galaxy.

But Orks? They aren't struggling to conquer the galaxy.

They already have.

**asimo77**

Manchu wrote:
asimo77 wrote:Ok I don't like orks because of their comedic slant, and ramshackle appearance- Would you disagree that they do not look ramshackle and do not have a comedic slant?
The idea that Orks are only ramshackle-looking comedians is simply incorrect. The way that you trivialize them indicates that you haven't read much about them.
I don't like SW because of the viking and party/drinking all the time thing- Would you disagree that vikings and parties are not part of SW?
You called them boorish, womaninzing broskis who attacked the Thousand Sons without cause. Also incorrect. And it also indicates that you don't know very much (or really anything) about them.
I don't like GK because they are the elite of the elite and nearly infallaible- Would you say GK are not the most elite of the imperium?
Sure GK are elite but you're missing the point again: they're super (x2) secret daemon killers, and so they are elite.

So you think the way orks speak isn't intended for comedic purposes at all? Perhaps you have no sense of humour or you speak just like them. Also I don't know what to say about the ramshackle things, I mean just look at the GW models, seriously do you think those don't look ramshackle and incoherent?

I shouldn't have used such colloquial language (my god I'm saying that on a forum?) in reference SW i.e. broski and so on, I was getting at their tendancy to have a good time (like frat boys) now and then. I corrected myself on the Prospero thing, Horus more or less decieved them, and the Emperor gave them orders and so on. But you still have not contested the viking and feasting aspect, do you seem to think this isn't a part of their fluff, because that's why I don't like them?

Yes I know GK hunt daemons but again I said I don't like them for being super elte, them being daemonhunters is irrelevant as to why I do not like them. Do you somehow think GK are not elite supersoldiers?

I'm trying to be polite here, but as silly as it sounds, it's a bit insulting to accuse someone they don't know anything about their toy soldiers game. it's like if someone accuses you of not knowing anything in your field of study, vocation, major, or hobby even.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"They do. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an example of the Ork language at work-- his name is taken from Ork language, not Low Gothic."

I thought that name was based on Margaret Thatcher, at least that's what I've heard.