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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
 kodos wrote:
2 times is enough

basic Marines at 20/25 points and there is enough design space to adjust everything else

also the army size at 2000 points will fit again on a 6x4 table


except we wouldn't be playing 2k but 4k. Or knowing GW they would be promoting 5k and players like lemmings follow it as usual.


GW doesn't promote 2K.

All Most* GW matched-play events play 1750 at the moment. It's probably one of the few points where the community stubbornly refuses to follow GW and keeps insisting on moooooooaaaaar points.


* They actually also run a 1000 points tournament series.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/26 09:46:05


 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





In terms of FW points, I hope that Aetaos'Rau'Keres goes back down to 999 points. Bumping him up to 1500 points felt like a major slap in the face, especially since the other named greater daemons still kept their god-specific point levels.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






tneva82 wrote:
 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...


That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.


According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 BoomWolf wrote:
According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?


Given half the rumors coming back to this thread started as wishlishing here, in this very thread, I'm going to say wait for previews before getting excited.

There's been a definite trend of 'confirmation' via random chan posts that happen to come up a few days or weeks after it was wishlisted here.

Personally, I'm betting chaos is getting limped along as is until it's 9th ed release with whatever else comes along side the full venom crawler kit. Points changes maybe, but I doubt too many new datasheets. That seems big enough they'd have previewed it relatively early.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BoomWolf wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...


That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.


According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?


According to rumours, that already happened in Psychic Awakening 2: Faith and Fury.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...


That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.


According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?


According to rumours, that already happened in Psychic Awakening 2: Faith and Fury.


that books out now yeah so surely we should have a confirm or deny?

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




 ArcaneHorror wrote:
In terms of FW points, I hope that Aetaos'Rau'Keres goes back down to 999 points. Bumping him up to 1500 points felt like a major slap in the face, especially since the other named greater daemons still kept their god-specific point levels.


I hope they scrap the God specific numbers entirely.. All 4 Daemon Lords are overpriced with those numbers. (Maybe Aetaos is fine at 999, but Zarakynel for example feels more like a 400 points model.)
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





Cinderspirit wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
In terms of FW points, I hope that Aetaos'Rau'Keres goes back down to 999 points. Bumping him up to 1500 points felt like a major slap in the face, especially since the other named greater daemons still kept their god-specific point levels.


I hope they scrap the God specific numbers entirely.. All 4 Daemon Lords are overpriced with those numbers. (Maybe Aetaos is fine at 999, but Zarakynel for example feels more like a 400 points model.)


I agree, it was a bad decision. While there are some truly devastating units in the FW catalog that need high pricing, I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played.

On another note, I really hope that PM don't go up in points. Considering what's been going on with the Space Marine updates, that would just add insult to injury.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/26 11:17:59


 
   
Made in au
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






My thirst is beginning to redden for leaks...
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..


When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in fi
Furious Raptor



Finland

They could write FW models rules that synergize with main codex plastics and slap limit of max 1 to these units, and also rules that are specific enough to enable new playstyles or similar effects without synergizing well with other FW models. Then they would become non-spammable centerpieces that encourages plastic use. This is pretty simple stuff, really, but I don't think they engage much in deeper thought back at GW.
Some larger centerpiece FW model, even vehicle, could easily provide some kind of buff to some specific nearby units. Good way to control the power is to make sure the buff is strict enough and not all-encompassing and affecting all of units. But for some reason GW insists the Buff Auras must come mostly from Characters, which is kind of direct AoS loan, but this game is fundamentally different as AoS enables far more character sniping than this game. And GW also seems to insist on making extremely broad Buff Auras, which specifically has enabled broken combos earlier because buffs act as power multipliers, and multiplying power of 'trash' units is mostly still trash while multiplying power of already powerful unit is just power creep.

Utter refusal to turn even the point values free and stubborness to follow the annual point updates ensures broken stuff getting nerfs at glacial pace while too weak stuff never gets buffed.
There actually is a thing that if action is easy to do and walk back on, then there is less pressure of making the perfect choice and decision making becomes easier and faster. Or is someone seriously thinking people would angrily start walking away from GW games at this point if broken stuff is nerfed faster? C'mon, GW has to be one of the most abusive companies in the business, current rules bloat is ridiculous and exactly opposite of what was promised with new edition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/26 11:55:03


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Who believed GW? It's same old company. Only thing that has really changed is PR department. They have become better at telling people what people want while doing opposite.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




tneva82 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..


When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





tneva82 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..


When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.


Thanks, that makes alot of sense. I still want to eventually use Samus and Uraka on the table, which works because they are priced (points-wise) quite decently.
   
Made in eu
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





Gadzilla666 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..


When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.


For counter-proof see Stompa(plastic)

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 NurglesR0T wrote:
Has it actually been officially confirmed that two completely different teams look after 40k/AoS?



No. Same team. The office isn’t that large. There‘s the Specialist Game Team and the „Main“ Team. The latter is about 5 to 8 people at the core (for everything 40K, AoS, Warcry, etc..) with a „flexible Reserve“ or things like Lore writers (e.g. Phil Kelly) also contributing to rules and/or providing input.
Simple things like the 40k Minidex being a lazy copypaste of the outdated rulebook and AoS being updated with all changes from the Generals Handbooks tells me they are different teams that do not communicate nearly as much as they should.
   
Made in eu
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





My impression is that most of people I experienced in multiple companies so far fail to communicate with people sitting next to them. Two departments not communicating isn't really surprising, especially if they compete with each other.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Gadzilla666 wrote:

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.


Not sure what you mean. All the FW units you named have vastly better rules than the (non-FW) Wraithknight
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Sunny Side Up wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.


Not sure what you mean. All the FW units you named have vastly better rules than the (non-FW) Wraithknight



He's talking about Knights the faction tm.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




 Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..


When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.


For counter-proof see Stompa(plastic)

True.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:

He's talking about Knights the faction tm.


Even there. Have you compared Lightning Lock Moirax to normal Armigers? It's easily one of the most obvious examples of FW's pay-to-win-for-people-with-too-much-money-and-not-enough-brains target market.
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




9
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.


Not sure what you mean. All the FW units you named have vastly better rules than the (non-FW) Wraithknight

2 wraithknights with 5+ invul 1 suncannon 2 starcannon 862 points. 1 fellblade 917. T9 worth that much?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Gadzilla666 wrote:

2 wraithknights with 5+ invul 1 suncannon 2 starcannon 862 points. 1 fellblade 917. T9 worth that much?


Sure. Roll some theory dice or mathhammer it out. Those Wraithknights don't see any daylight there.

And while we're at it. A Moirax with Lighting Locks as 2d6 Str. 6 shots with the pseudo-Tesla rule and a 5++ for under 150 points now, where the Suncannon Wraithknight pays over 400 points for the privilege without the Tesla-rule on 6s.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/26 13:42:18


 
   
Made in gb
Foolproof Falcon Pilot




East of England

That Fellblade would wreck both WKs. Not saying that proves anything, but there it is.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Fellblade and Wraith Knight are both pretty meh. I think it's deliberate though. Recalling to the Imperial Knights meta, it was pretty miserable to play. They probably don't want to see such a meta develop again, since it could definitely discourage players from investing heavily into the game.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Sunny Side Up wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

He's talking about Knights the faction tm.


Even there. Have you compared Lightning Lock Moirax to normal Armigers? It's easily one of the most obvious examples of FW's pay-to-win-for-people-with-too-much-money-and-not-enough-brains target market.


Sure lad, nothing to do with the base amiriger beeing allready way to cheap right? RIGHT?
Also further my R&H, mates DkoK and corsair forces must be broken beyond all reasonable margins.
As must be my other mates IH, actually no wait, the IH ones are more broken? HOW COULD THAT BE?!?

Spoiler:
also do you have further conspiracy theories beyond stating all FW collectors are stupid? or wallet warriors? No? good , then check out rule 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darsath wrote:
Fellblade and Wraith Knight are both pretty meh. I think it's deliberate though. Recalling to the Imperial Knights meta, it was pretty miserable to play. They probably don't want to see such a meta develop again, since it could definitely discourage players from investing heavily into the game.


Probably suffering from 7th as do gk for the sins of 5th.
probably.
And also because it forces those that use them just because powerfull to switch around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/26 13:54:59


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Darsath wrote:
Fellblade and Wraith Knight are both pretty meh. I think it's deliberate though. Recalling to the Imperial Knights meta, it was pretty miserable to play. They probably don't want to see such a meta develop again, since it could definitely discourage players from investing heavily into the game.

Seems more like gw is discouraging fw/xenos/mega daemon low meta. Remember they nerfed those units when they started pushing IMPERIAL knights. (Ok everybody get which ones I'm talking about)?

Doesn't seem most knights are having problems.

Now we have them with spikes on.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The pre-orders are this weekend right?

Going to be a make or break weekend for me i think! I am kinda surprised we haven't seen more reliable leaks on a bigger scale as well.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Kdash wrote:
The pre-orders are this weekend right?

Going to be a make or break weekend for me i think! I am kinda surprised we haven't seen more reliable leaks on a bigger scale as well.


we also have yet to see what is going on with alot of other factions.
Orkz didn't get anything mentioner, FW also did also not show up.
We have no idea which Daemonprinces get the drop.


So in essence, the whole teaser we got did create more questions then it in a way solved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/26 14:20:46


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






Sunny Side Up wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 kodos wrote:
2 times is enough

basic Marines at 20/25 points and there is enough design space to adjust everything else

also the army size at 2000 points will fit again on a 6x4 table


except we wouldn't be playing 2k but 4k. Or knowing GW they would be promoting 5k and players like lemmings follow it as usual.


GW doesn't promote 2K.

All Most* GW matched-play events play 1750 at the moment. It's probably one of the few points where the community stubbornly refuses to follow GW and keeps insisting on moooooooaaaaar points.


* They actually also run a 1000 points tournament series.



True. I do think they also have some 2K point events, but they mostly stick with 1750.

US Tournaments used to play 1750 several years ago, but moved to 1850. We could speculate and argue all day about why they moved away from it. I get that 2K is a nice round number, but it facilitates spamming more readily and some factions can really take advantage of it (e.g. Eldar w/ 5+ Wave Serpents).

Trigger warning...
Spoiler:
1850 is just a joke. It is the most useless, unhelpful points limit ever adopted. I actually use "1850" as a red flag to not play people as it's an indicator they're likely a WAAC tourney-goon. So... No thank you; not going to waste my time. I prefer to play games with my opponent, not adversarially against my opponent like we're in some non-social on-line FPS.
   
 
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