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Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator



Dayton, OH

The Red Hobbit wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I went back and watched a video on the reveal stream, and you can see more statlines for the Veteran Guardsmen.

Pistols are all range 6/hex
Laspistol; 4A, BS3, D2/3.
Bolt gun/pistol: 4A, BS3, D3/4.
Plasma Pistol (low): 4A, BS4, D5/6, AP1
Plasma Pistol (high): 4A, BS4, D5/6, AP2, Hot

Chainsword: A4, WS3, D3/4, Balanced.

So there's a clear distinction between the Bolt Pistol and the Plasma Pistol, at least - the Bolt Pistol is more accurate but the Plasma Pistol causes more damage. Shame that the Laspistol seems pointless when compared to the Bolt Pistol.

That's very interesting, I didn't expect them to do different BS for different weapons on the Veteran. For the CSM their plasma weapon has their normal BS.

The CSM's a Gunner, though -- Its Plasmagun is mean to be a strict upgrade from a Bolter, because it's limited in how many Gunners you can take by the Fire Team composition. The Bolt Pistol and Plasma Pistol, on the other hand, are meant to be equivalent (because there's no points paid) side-grade options with different optimal use cases/pros-and-cons on the same Sergeant that you get one of either way.

Which is why it's disappointing that the Las Pistol is so awful. It's not a difference between the a vanilla model and the limited-per-squad model, the way the Plasmagun is; it's a difference between options for the limited-per-squad model. It would be like if the Plasmagun was a strict upgrade from the Meltagun, as the better analogy between the Pistols and the Plasmagun. Instead, we get a Plasmagun that is versatile at full range, a Meltagun that's killier and has a higher damage ceiling at close range, and a Flamer that has a low per-model damage, but can hit multiple things, providing good tradeoffs at the Gunner slot, and a Sergeant who has the option between high damage, medium accuracy, medium damage higher accuracy (good tradeoffs so far), and poor damage mediocre accuracy (oops, never take this).

All that said, I was surprised that they're doing different accuracies on the same model, too, given that historically WS/BS have been linked to the person, not the gear. But it's a game mechanics surprise, not a game balance one, if that makes sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 15:37:44


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Oh for sure, I was surprised since WS/BS is typically on a per model basis. Sure you might have a melee weapons with -1 to hit, but an infantry pistol with a worse BS, now that's a surprise.

I had forgotten there are no points to worry about so your explanation makes sense that the Bolter and Plasma Pistol being options need to be balanced one way or another without involving a +5pt bump.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Sentient Void

I stopped hating on this with the last article, but am still not interested. This change happened because the article made me realize that KT was a skirmish system but is now a board game, so it should be evaluated with board game not miniatures war game criteria.

Member of the Coalition for an Asmodee buy out of Games Workshop 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Curious what the normal gameplay loop is going to be with models that have APL>2, given that you can't repeat actions. what's the third action you're generally going to do? Shoot-Charge-Fight?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 the_scotsman wrote:
Curious what the normal gameplay loop is going to be with models that have APL>2, given that you can't repeat actions. what's the third action you're generally going to do? Shoot-Charge-Fight?

Yea that seems to be it. Or Move-Charge-Fight, or Move-Move-Shoot. (I believe they've said that Move can be repeated)
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 Insane Ivan wrote:

Bit surprised/disappointed the Reiver doesn't include any rules for the optional Grav-chutes and/or Grapnel Launcher they can take, nor anything for the Shock grenades or sonic waves that are specifically called out in the fluff bit.

Also, why do none of these datasheets acknowledge that these models clearly have sidearms modelled? I would assume you could have armed your marine with a combat knife instead of "fists" if all Veteran Guardsmen get a Bayonet... Looking at this I get the feeling the compendium rules are just there to allow everyone to play with their existing Kill Teams but they're saving the "proper" rules for specific new Kill Team kits to be released down the line.


This is an interesting idea. Is the Compendium there to allow you to play the old core rules Kill Teams and new rules will accompany Warcry-like Kill Teams? If so, why again did an AoS adjacent game get better support than the breadwinner 40K? I'd have rather had six specific kill teams with a compendium and more to come rather than the minimum effort that was shown in this box set. Again Kommandos and Veteran Guard show what the game was supposed to look like making everything else kind of half baked.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Chopstick wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
It's nice to see my avengers are slow and meh.

The more rules are previewed, the more KT 2.0 looks like it was slapped together in a hurry.


This edition took more effort to made than the previous edition, which is a 90% copied datasheet from normal 40k.


That's why I am playing Necromunda. Unique models and unique pre- and post-match sequences.
Shadowwar Armageddon (LOL!) and both of it's successors, KT1 & KT2, are just lazy copy-paste affairs to let "Little Timmy" sniff a bit of 40K air.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Warcry had the advantage of starting as it's own complete game.

I rather suspect Killteam, especially a Killteam 2, would be dead on arrival if it didn't support most 40k factions.
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator



Dayton, OH

Rihgu wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Curious what the normal gameplay loop is going to be with models that have APL>2, given that you can't repeat actions. what's the third action you're generally going to do? Shoot-Charge-Fight?

Yea that seems to be it. Or Move-Charge-Fight, or Move-Move-Shoot. (I believe they've said that Move can be repeated)

I haven't seen where they've suggested Move can be repeated (though I've seen other people on the internet speculating that it can).

Regardless, we do know that at least some objectives will require interacting with an action, so Move -> Shoot -> Win sounds like a solid way to use 3 actions. Fall Back (2 AP) and Shoot works nicely, too for your shooty guys who your opponent tries to tie up in melee.

Systems that work with cancelling dice often have the opportunity to take actions that let you get bonuses (re-rolls, free cancels, etc). So if we see a dodge or take cover action, Move -> Shoot -> Hunker Down sounds like a winner's move, too.

That said, the models we know get 3 APL are definitely factions that like to blur the lines between melee and ranged specialists -- Space Marines are notorious generalists, so the notion of Move -> Shoot -> Charge is really nice for them. Custodes even moreso.
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






They may pull from BSF as well and have an "Aim" action that lets you ignore Cover bonuses. Certainly be useful for 3APL units, or even just a Sniper with a good field of view.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

We know that certain profiles will have unique actions and it's not impossible that specializations will have actions as well.
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Guard veterans have access to spotters, so happy days for people wanting to run snipers.
   
Made in se
Torch-Wielding Lunatic





Sweden

 BrookM wrote:
Guard veterans have access to spotters, so happy days for people wanting to run snipers.

I believe the Spotter Veteran is a forward observer for a mortar battery. When I pause the preview video at 00:50:04 or so, I can barely make out "forward observers" and "mortar fire teams". One of the weapons has a special rule with a white circle, so possibly an area effect.
Spoiler:

This space is intentionally left blank. 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







Pretty sure it says Moratar Barrage

Posters on ignore list: 34

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Curious what the normal gameplay loop is going to be with models that have APL>2, given that you can't repeat actions. what's the third action you're generally going to do? Shoot-Charge-Fight?
Dance. There's a whole dancing phase that's yet to be revealed, but you didn't hear that from me.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Well it's nice that Loyalists and CSM finally get the same number of wounds. I'm surprised Rubrics have the same though, I figured since there's no Toughness they'd have a higher Wound count then plus the All is Dust rule.

Rubrics don't have higher-than-normal toughness, that's only Death Guard so we should expect Plague Marines to have more wounds than normal.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
All is Dust will make them pretty resilient to any sort of small arms fire though.

Noteworthy that All Is Dust appears to be worse than it is in 40k, where it also improves the invuln save to a 4+. Very different game so might not matter but it does make me a bit paranoid about the rule in the codex since I was hoping it'd get buffed...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 01:05:56


 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




USA

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:

Bit surprised/disappointed the Reiver doesn't include any rules for the optional Grav-chutes and/or Grapnel Launcher they can take, nor anything for the Shock grenades or sonic waves that are specifically called out in the fluff bit.

Also, why do none of these datasheets acknowledge that these models clearly have sidearms modelled? I would assume you could have armed your marine with a combat knife instead of "fists" if all Veteran Guardsmen get a Bayonet... Looking at this I get the feeling the compendium rules are just there to allow everyone to play with their existing Kill Teams but they're saving the "proper" rules for specific new Kill Team kits to be released down the line.


This is an interesting idea. Is the Compendium there to allow you to play the old core rules Kill Teams and new rules will accompany Warcry-like Kill Teams? If so, why again did an AoS adjacent game get better support than the breadwinner 40K? I'd have rather had six specific kill teams with a compendium and more to come rather than the minimum effort that was shown in this box set. Again Kommandos and Veteran Guard show what the game was supposed to look like making everything else kind of half baked.


I wouldn’t be that surprised to see more Kill Teams like the Veteran Guard and Kommandos (and hope we do). You could do something similar to them with a box of Eldar Rangers (which could also fill the need for them in plastic for 40k), or do fully unique teams like an Inquisition team or what not. I imagine that the reason Warcry got 6 teams out of the gate (and eventually 2 more) is because I believe the other factions were tacked on, and the original game was meant to only be Chaos cultists and their ilk battling it out. And no one would have been interested in that if there were only two faction choices. GW probably didn’t feel the need to do a bunch of the unique teams right off the bat with 40k because the huge back catalog of miniatures people have access to (and also this way less people being upset about not being able to use their old KT stuff). Hopefully more flavorful Kill Teams like the ones in the starter come out soon, because I agree with the rest of the stuff looking a bit so-so.

 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




Been trying to catch up with this new Kill Team as initially it did interest me.

Couple of questions about the actual fire/kill teams, if people are pretty sure the pics shown in the warcom articles are the actual kill teams:

Adeptus Custodes have 1 fire team of 2 Custodes, each with different loadout (1 sword and shield & 1 with spear). A 2nd fire team of 5 Sisters of Silence, each with the same loadout, a flamer?
I’m not familiar with weapon options in Kill Team but is it possible to arm the Sisters differently? The kit has swords, bolters and flamers. Just curious why they gave all 5 flamers, are they that good?

Ad-Mech the pic shows 6 Rangers and 3 Sicarian Infiltrators and 1 Sicarian Ruststalker for a total of 10 figures making up a Kill Team. Would that be 1 fire team or 2?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






lost_lilliputian wrote:
Been trying to catch up with this new Kill Team as initially it did interest me.

Couple of questions about the actual fire/kill teams, if people are pretty sure the pics shown in the warcom articles are the actual kill teams:

Adeptus Custodes have 1 fire team of 2 Custodes, each with different loadout (1 sword and shield & 1 with spear). A 2nd fire team of 5 Sisters of Silence, each with the same loadout, a flamer?
I’m not familiar with weapon options in Kill Team but is it possible to arm the Sisters differently? The kit has swords, bolters and flamers. Just curious why they gave all 5 flamers, are they that good?

Ad-Mech the pic shows 6 Rangers and 3 Sicarian Infiltrators and 1 Sicarian Ruststalker for a total of 10 figures making up a Kill Team. Would that be 1 fire team or 2?


You are going to be able to assign your weapons load out as designated by the list. Sisters more then likely have a bonus for flamers, ( just guessing) or it was just a fluke.

The Custodes... I'm not even going to guess, seeing as 1 Custode was worth a squad of Space marines. They are armed with a bolter/polearm, wrist bolter, or something like that.

As to the ten- More then likely, that's 1 team. The "fire team" concept for Killteam goes to figure/unit. They probably get a leadership bonus, based on a unit leader, but other then that, it's a Ad-Mech, so you get some bonus Omnissiah bonuses.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

 Witchfinder General wrote:
 BrookM wrote:
Guard veterans have access to spotters, so happy days for people wanting to run snipers.

I believe the Spotter Veteran is a forward observer for a mortar battery. When I pause the preview video at 00:50:04 or so, I can barely make out "forward observers" and "mortar fire teams". One of the weapons has a special rule with a white circle, so possibly an area effect.
Spoiler:
Interesting, did not know that. On the one hand, pity that there's not some more synergy between models, but on the other.. I know who's getting the flare gun in my team.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Curious what the normal gameplay loop is going to be with models that have APL>2, given that you can't repeat actions. what's the third action you're generally going to do? Shoot-Charge-Fight?
Dance. There's a whole dancing phase that's yet to be revealed, but you didn't hear that from me.
It's a nice nod and throwback to an older, more obscure supplement, though I am sure some people will bitch about it to no end.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 05:11:54


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




lost_lilliputian wrote:
Been trying to catch up with this new Kill Team as initially it did interest me.

Couple of questions about the actual fire/kill teams, if people are pretty sure the pics shown in the warcom articles are the actual kill teams:

Adeptus Custodes have 1 fire team of 2 Custodes, each with different loadout (1 sword and shield & 1 with spear). A 2nd fire team of 5 Sisters of Silence, each with the same loadout, a flamer?
I’m not familiar with weapon options in Kill Team but is it possible to arm the Sisters differently? The kit has swords, bolters and flamers. Just curious why they gave all 5 flamers, are they that good?

Ad-Mech the pic shows 6 Rangers and 3 Sicarian Infiltrators and 1 Sicarian Ruststalker for a total of 10 figures making up a Kill Team. Would that be 1 fire team or 2?


Right now I think that is just photographing models for advertising.
There is no way two custodes could be balanced with that many sisters. And I don’t think 4 in a kill team would be fair currently from what we know on the small maps.
So I suspect they may have a single fire team, with a mixed unit option or single type options as we see.
Sisters loadouts are weird as is with not that much choice. So I cannot see them being very limited.
They could also see a primary fire team and a secondary fire team, with having to take one a each to avoid some of there issues. Sorta as there unique trait.
This is mostly me speculation based on what we have now, they may have a bunch left to even stuff out a bit better.
   
Made in fi
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






Since all fire team compositions are tied to what bits come in a single kit, I'm pretty sure sisters will have access to all the weapon options for every model.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

2 Custodes to a Killteam doesn't sound unreasonable, there's only 14 Guardsmen, plus special weapons, in a Killteam after all.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 tauist wrote:
Since all fire team compositions are tied to what bits come in a single kit, I'm pretty sure sisters will have access to all the weapon options for every model.


I would like to see them give access to the pistols as a upgrade with the swords. Rather than have them without, don’t think it would be a ballance issue :(
But sisters don’t even have anything that could be a issue here like heavy weapons I would think.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




Thanks for the feedback and speculation guys. I think at this point in time more details are needed before I start assembling anything or planning purchases.

I've been trying to kill 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak with regards to a combat patrol size detachment and double up for kill team but there's still a few too many moving parts unknown with kill team fire teams. Anyway August isn't too far away so I'm sure answers will be revealed soon.

   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

 Insane Ivan wrote:

Bit surprised/disappointed the Reiver doesn't include any rules for the optional Grav-chutes and/or Grapnel Launcher they can take, nor anything for the Shock grenades or sonic waves that are specifically called out in the fluff bit.


This is the data sheet for Reiver (Warrior). I imagine that means there are other specialist Reivers with those bits.

The thing I find a bit weird is listing combat knives and fists. Knives appear to be a straight-up better option, and I thought all Reivers had knives...
   
Made in nl
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Segmentum Solar

Crispy78 wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:

Bit surprised/disappointed the Reiver doesn't include any rules for the optional Grav-chutes and/or Grapnel Launcher they can take, nor anything for the Shock grenades or sonic waves that are specifically called out in the fluff bit.


This is the data sheet for Reiver (Warrior). I imagine that means there are other specialist Reivers with those bits.

The thing I find a bit weird is listing combat knives and fists. Knives appear to be a straight-up better option, and I thought all Reivers had knives...

Yeah, it makes sense. The addition of "(Warrior)"must have the purpose of distinguishing it from specialists, as otherwise what's the point of adding that. It does reinforce the idea for me that the compendium Kill Teams will just be "placeholders" until bespoke KT boxes come along for other factions, though.

As for the fists and knives thing, in 40k Reivers can either have the pistol and knife, or the carbine (and pistol). The carbine option does not get the knife (except for the sergeant, I believe). Equipment selection rules aren't specified on the datasheet, though, so not sure if RAW in new Kill Team you can't just have both the carbine and the knife - in which case the fists are redundant. But I assume they want you to follow the modelling options for Reivers as they are in 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 08:47:04


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I think Warrior is just the grunts, Gunners are the special weapons.

Reivers I think are going with pistol+knife or bolter loadouts.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Chairman Aeon wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:

Bit surprised/disappointed the Reiver doesn't include any rules for the optional Grav-chutes and/or Grapnel Launcher they can take, nor anything for the Shock grenades or sonic waves that are specifically called out in the fluff bit.

Also, why do none of these datasheets acknowledge that these models clearly have sidearms modelled? I would assume you could have armed your marine with a combat knife instead of "fists" if all Veteran Guardsmen get a Bayonet... Looking at this I get the feeling the compendium rules are just there to allow everyone to play with their existing Kill Teams but they're saving the "proper" rules for specific new Kill Team kits to be released down the line.

This is an interesting idea. Is the Compendium there to allow you to play the old core rules Kill Teams and new rules will accompany Warcry-like Kill Teams? If so, why again did an AoS adjacent game get better support than the breadwinner 40K? I'd have rather had six specific kill teams with a compendium and more to come rather than the minimum effort that was shown in this box set. Again Kommandos and Veteran Guard show what the game was supposed to look like making everything else kind of half baked.

They already said other KTs will get game specific upgrade sprue like kommandos and krieg later. That's when we will see full upgrades and rules, probably. I will facepalm really hard if GW didn't fix reivers for 9th edition codex because melee bits for it will be released later

lost_lilliputian wrote:
Ad-Mech the pic shows 6 Rangers and 3 Sicarian Infiltrators and 1 Sicarian Ruststalker for a total of 10 figures making up a Kill Team. Would that be 1 fire team or 2?

It has to be 2, not only different units, but KT of 20 models that good would be really insane.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

It's theoretically possible that Admec would get a single Fireteam that allows you to mix rangers and Sicarians in it.

But far more likely they get two Fireteams, one rangers and one Sicarians.
   
 
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