Switch Theme:

Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

The Undivided Daemon restriction doesn't apply to the CSM side at least so you can make them all one God and go get the appropriate support piece from the Daemon side.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, I got the book of Fire. Yeah, for what I see, Belakor is a must if you want to take that army of Renown.

Anyway, a sort of concept list I thought of using shooty concept.

Fortification: Nortilith Crown

HQ: Belakor (warlord), tzeenth herald Changecastor, slanaash herald (all using Noctic psychic).

Troops: 10 bloodletters (banner of blood), 2 squads of nurglings.

(This will cover all 4 types of daemons, plus allows us to take a second squad of nurglings).

Elites: 3 x volkite contemptors.

Heavy: 1 max squad of obliterators (Slanaash) and 2 Vindicators with combi melta, havoc launchers and demolisher cannons (which are now d6 shots blast).

Fast attacks: 2x raptors squads.

So, Belakor is to stay behind obscuring and mainly use his new Noctic psychic spells. He will serve mainly as a counter charge unit only if your shooty stuff is being threatened by melee stuff. He will give the full rerolls to the obliterators as priority with his command warlord trait Shadow Lord. He will give rerolls to 1 for the other shooty stuff too. But if need be, he can fly out at turn 2 or 3 and cause a big distraction. Maybe by then, enough of the anti belakor shooting can be taken out so that he has a decent chance of surviving. I didn't mention any artifacts because honestly, I don't know if there is any of note which will be crucial from either the old CSM or daemon codex. I guess the endless grimoire is the best, to give the changecastor an additional tzeenth psychic, so it can take gaze of fate for the additional reroll.

The obliterators can be teleported to the best spot by the noctic psychic (Wreathed in shadows) so that they can use their double shoot and wreck havoc, plus they have full rerolls.

After that, sacrificial units like the bloodletters, or cultists, or whatever can be flung forward by the same spell (Wreathed in shadows) to achieve objectives.

The army just wants to use its shooting to clear out as much as the main threats as it can while its cheap troops as stuff sacrifice themselves to achieve objectives.

I put in the Nortilith crown because quite a lot hinges on getting that warp 7 psychic off and the crown gives psykers within range rerolls on their psychic. Plus with the amount of armor I put in the list, the Crown is yet one more T8 vehicle that adds to the amount of armor the opponent has to kill. The army doesn't start with a lot of cp because of the 3 volkite Contemptors, but its likely mostly only using strategems like Cacophony, Vets and a clutch Blessing of Belakor.

I am kinda iffy about the Vindicators with demolisher cannons though, but they were cheap and at T8, hard to kill and add to the armor satuation. They will move foward aggressively, and help to screen the obliterators who can then get that other noctic psychic (Shrouded Step) cast on it so that it cannot be targeted unless its the closest unit. Maybe I can take 1 Vindicator tank out and get more cultist units, and/or one more bloodletter squad, just for the additional obsec units for doing objectives.

Also, because of the ability to use wreathed in shadows, and because Obliterators can actually fight and tank decently. Its possible to have spot a weaker flank/objective and wreath the obliterators onto that point, plus have Belakor fly there and charge something. Then suddenly, on that turn. The obliterators will shoot down two units, charge a third, and so will Belakor and they will likely be suddenly standing on a midboard objective at the end of that turn on a flank which is cleared of most threats. Just don't do this on a center midboard objective. Oblits and Belakor are not quite that tanky.

So, what do you think? Would this work? From what I understand, the whole army will get that -1 to hit at over 12 inches and more importantly, all the shooty stuff is CSM, which means shooting at them cannot be rerolled as well. let me know if I did this wrong. lol

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2021/07/18 03:08:29


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Just to add on.. But Kill Shot is still a thing in the CSM codex. And you can put 3 predators into a DOB army. In fact, you can even put 6 predators (cos two types). And all the predators get that -1 to hit. I don't know if it makes them interesting enough, but it is something to think about. 6 Predators is quite a lot of shooting if all of them have havoc launchers and combi bolters. And with -1 to hit, its unlikely you can kill 4 predators in one turn, so kill shot is almost assured of going off.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Strange, I only see 1 data sheet for the chaos predator in my Codex. Assuming you're playing with the rule of 3 then you are limited to 3 of the same data sheet in your army. If you're not playing with the rule of 3 then why limit yourself to just 6 predators (other than the fact that they aren't very good units)?
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Strange, I only see 1 data sheet for the chaos predator in my Codex. Assuming you're playing with the rule of 3 then you are limited to 3 of the same data sheet in your army. If you're not playing with the rule of 3 then why limit yourself to just 6 predators (other than the fact that they aren't very good units)?


Ah sorry, I kept on reading about how the Predator has two datasheets now, one for the destructor and one for the annihilator. But apparently that was just for the newer codex like the death guard or space marine codex. So, CSM codex hasn't gotten this treatment yet. Ah well, 3 predators can still do kill shot. And they are still affected by the -1 to hit. So, alist with 3 Volkite contemptors and 3 predators tanks? Could be a thing. I don;t know if kill shot and -1 to hit makes predator tanks fieldable. But its worth discussing and thinking about.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I finally got a Heldrake.

Do they see any use these days? What weapon should it have?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 15:20:22


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I finally got a Heldrake.

Do they see any use these days? What weapon should it have?


To be determined. Right now the heldrake is pretty much the platonic ideal of a distraction carnifex, being big and fast and annoying but hitting like a wet noodle. You wanna use the baleflamer because BS4 sucks.

Of course, it seems the daemon engine profiles are changing so the autocannon might be more appealing in the future. We'll know for sure when the Thousand Sons codex launches since it'll be in that book (though that won't update the CSM version ofc).
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I finally got a Heldrake.

Do they see any use these days? What weapon should it have?




Grats!!! They are meant to tie up shooty troops on turn 1 with a turn 1 charge. Given their super long move, its definitely possible. It all depends on how what kind of list your opponent runs, and how good a player he is. Newbies will probably let your Heldrake do its thing. Veteran players will know how to screen their best shooters so that your Heldrake don't get to land anywhere near charge range, and at least they will definitely try and shoot it out if they can't do that. In any case, it shouldn't expect to survive past turn 1. If it gets to draw fire and tied up a shooty unit on turn 1, that's its job accomplished. People usually run flamers because given the long move it has, it should be able to flame whoever it wants.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

In addition what the others said heldrakes can be used for secondaries like engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines on T1.

Using a noctilith crown is a bad idea, because it cant be placed within 3" of any other terrain piece, and if it cant be placed, its destroyed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 06:12:03


 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 p5freak wrote:
In addition what the others said heldrakes can be used for secondaries like engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines on T1.

Using a noctilith crown is a bad idea, because it cant be placed within 3" of any other terrain piece, and if it cant be placed, its destroyed.


Side point, if you attempt to get juicy 5++ then you can just use the cheaper and more usefull Apostle aswell...

Ironically on the Helldrake, i am unsure, the hades AC i use makes it quite a funny little thing and shooting into a melee is a thing. Flamer overall still the better deal.
I'd say its a bit like a flying Venomcrawler, insofar that it wants to get stuck in and bully things whilest still being pretty durable when within MoP/ Sorcerer range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 06:19:10


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I finally got a Heldrake.

Do they see any use these days? What weapon should it have?



So I talked about possible changes coming for heldrakes a few pages back by looking at the new points costs in the thousand sons codex. It's points are going up from 150 to 165pts but the Hades autocannon no longer costs extra.

It appears to be a trend that Daemon Engines are going to WS/BS 3+ but the Heldrake is already WS3+. If the accuracy boost is the only rule change its recieving then you would think that would increase the value in the Hades option.

I'm hoping that points to a boost in its melee profile as it desperately needs it. My hope is a bunch more attacks at least

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:
In addition what the others said heldrakes can be used for secondaries like engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines on T1.

Using a noctilith crown is a bad idea, because it cant be placed within 3" of any other terrain piece, and if it cant be placed, its destroyed.
.

Well, I think Nortilith crown is something you can discuss with your opponent and it shouldn't be hard for the two of you to come to an agreement on where to place it. You aren't going to place that crown anywhere near his deployment zone. But yeah, its not something absolutely essential. I just happen to have it and I am always looking for ways to make it work.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





I haven't been playing CSM for a while so apologies if I've missed something. I'm playing a more fun game this week and said I might take my lord of skulls out for a spin.

How does 'Titanic Daemon Engine' interact with 'Big Guns Never Tire'?

If it's engaged by infantry, can it use it's own rule to shoot with no -1 penalty for shooting heavy weapons and choose to shoot another unit that it isn't in combat with? none of it's weapons are blast from what i can tell so i think that said of things is moot.

Also, with the change to the core rules for titanic, can it still fall back and shoot? That was something that, unlike knights, it couldn't do before?

That all feels like quite big buffs to it's utility unless i have missed something in the FAQs?

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

A vehicle can fire weapons at things it is not engaged with, but you have to kill everything you're engaged with first. So if you have 3 guns and want to fire the biggest one at something else, better hope your other two guns kill everything near you, otherwise it's a wasted shot.

The Titanic Daemon Engine adds an extra layer to that, as it's a specific Codex rule over a general rulebook rule. So it can fire everything at engaged Infantry units, and any enemy that is more than 1" away from it.

The benefits of being big, I guess.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 23:43:22


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yeh that's really nice little boost then. And it gets around the -1 for shooting heavy weapons in combat because of its own specific rule too?

   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





France, region of Paris

Hello. I'm planning to buy, build, paint a unit of 10 Chaos cultists out of resin parts, in order to offer them to my brother, as a birthday gift. He has a small alpha legion army, currently a side project that does not grow fast unfortunately. What is the best equipment loadout to choose for this unit ? Autoguns, or autopistols and mêlée weapons ? What about the sergeant and optional special weapon dude ?

longtime Astra Militarum neckbeard  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello. I'm planning to buy, build, paint a unit of 10 Chaos cultists out of resin parts, in order to offer them to my brother, as a birthday gift. He has a small alpha legion army, currently a side project that does not grow fast unfortunately. What is the best equipment loadout to choose for this unit ? Autoguns, or autopistols and mêlée weapons ? What about the sergeant and optional special weapon dude ?


I normally use autorifle cultists with no special or champion weapon upgrades unless I have spare points at the "end" of list building, where I'll add a heavy stubber with spare points I can't fill anywhere else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 00:10:05


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I am kinda nervous about the upcoming Tsons codex, Tsons share so many common units with CSM it will be a huge indicator on the CSM codex.

If the Tsons codex suck, only the units obliterators, havocs, lord discordant, lord of skulls, berserkers and noise marines are left to make the CSM good.

Lets be real, CSM terminators stats wise and rules will always be inferior to cult terminators. The only thing they have going for them is their cost.

We could have good strategems of course, but that is very hit and miss. And as we have seen in 9th ed codex releases, its more the stats boost and unit rules of the 9th ed units that contribute to the power of a 9th ed codex rather than one or two OP strategems. (If they are that OP. they will get nerfed anyway.)
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am kinda nervous about the upcoming Tsons codex, Tsons share so many common units with CSM it will be a huge indicator on the CSM codex.

If the Tsons codex suck, only the units obliterators, havocs, lord discordant, lord of skulls, berserkers and noise marines are left to make the CSM good.

Lets be real, CSM terminators stats wise and rules will always be inferior to cult terminators. The only thing they have going for them is their cost.

We could have good strategems of course, but that is very hit and miss. And as we have seen in 9th ed codex releases, its more the stats boost and unit rules of the 9th ed units that contribute to the power of a 9th ed codex rather than one or two OP strategems. (If they are that OP. they will get nerfed anyway.)


Eh. CSM don't have to have the best Terminators, I don't think there was ever a time when we did. They need to be useful, not outstanding.

3W Terminators are good at objective holding and drawing fire. Thinking a squad of 5 taking the place of a vehicle to deny secondaries to an opponent may justify their appearance in a list.

More concerned about Daemon Engines. Not having the Core keyword could really set them back. When I did use them in 8th, really needed the benefit of reroll auras to do much on the table.

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, the Defiler was already featured in DG codex. Don't think the TS version or the CSM version will be any different. But we will be seeing the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend in the Tsons codex. And the Helldrake too. That's a pretty big portion of the daemon engines available to us. Beyond these daemon engines, there is basically only the Venom Crawler and Lord of Discordant left which is distinct to the CSM codex. (And Lord of Skulls).

If Daemon Enginess theme is to be a decent list, these three daemon engines can't be too terrible. Else it would be really hard to make any CSM daemon engine themed list work.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Is there any reason why they couldn't add the Venom Crawler to the 1KSons book?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





The Venomcrawler and Master of Possessions could both realistically fit in the Thousand Sons codex, yes. It was already kind of weird that Thousand Sons didn't get the Venomcrawler, it fits just as well as the other daemon engines. They may be barred due to some weird "this is a Heretic Astartes release" logic since they came out with the Oblits and other models that KSons shouldn't get.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is there any reason why they couldn't add the Venom Crawler to the 1KSons book?


We already saw the points for TS in the Munitorum Field Manual, so we know it's not there.

As for why the TS would forgo this and other Daemon Engine options, maybe arrogance? Sorcerers have their thralls, Daemon Engines can't be controlled the same way. Occasionally including a Defiler is enough for them.

   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





What do we think of the changes to Daemon engines in the TS codex?
Wish I knew where the magma cutters are for my maulerfiend as I magnetised the lasher tendrils for easier transport but never fittedr the cutters. Also the goonhammer review says they are now assault 2. I presume that both cutters are lumped into one profile and it's not getting 4 shots at D6+2 damage?
Bit disappointed by the heldrake changes. I like it's unique position of being able to take objectives, score engage etc. Maybe it's improved damage output will be enough to keep it interesting.
Big question is whether the disco lord continues to grant +1 to hit when everything gets BS/WS3+

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

For those who have not seen the Daemon Engine changes:
Spoiler:
Goonhammer wrote:Forgefiends and Maulerfiends
Alright children, sit up and take notes because what we’re getting here is basically going to be how the datasheets shake out for these two units in the future. Both Forgefiends and Maulerfiends got significant boosts in the new book, and it’s worth taking a good look at both because I think they’re both playable as hell now.

Forgefiends get a huge boost from jumping up to BS and WS 3+, though both degrade now along with their movement (attacks do not). That’s interesting because now that Forgefiends can shoot autocannons in melee and are S7 and 5A base, the prospect of getting them in combat with their standard jaws isn’t nearly as troubling. That said, their guns are also significantly improved now – Ectoplasma Cannons are 36” and flat 3 damage (Blast), while Heavy hades autocannons are 48” and AP-2 now, making both significantly better for dealing with heavy targets at a long distance.

Maulerfiends benefit even more from the improved statlines – they’re now S7 and 6A base, and now only their movement, WS, and BS degrade, with the latter two starting at 3+ so you won’t even feel the drop until you get down to 3 wounds remaining. Magma Cutters are now Assault 2 and do D6+2 damage, making them significantly better options, particularly since Lasher Tendrils have dropped to 1 damage (though being S7 does mean you’re more likely to get wounds). If you’re wondering why you would still take them, the answer is because you might not need Magma Cutters as Maulerfiend Fists are now D3+3 damage. Oh and the cherry on top of all of this? The new Siege Crawler ability, which allows the Maulerfiend to ignore all modifiers to its charge rolls. So roll right over that difficult terrain at your leisure.

Heldrakes
Y’all. I am already assembling my next Thousand Sons Heldrake. This thing absolutely slaps. While we’re (sadly) back to the Heldrake being an AIRCRAFT instead of a big skimmer, it gains Hard to Hit while it’s in jet mode and 20-60” movement along with Supersonic and Airborne Predator, which prevents it from charging any non-AIRCRAFT units. Want the old Heldrake back? Then in your Command phase it can switch to Hover Jet mode, and its movement drops to 20” and it loses all three of those abilities, letting it attack ground targets. Either way, its Hunter in the Skies rule gives it +1 to hit any target that can FLY.

On the whole, these changes are slightly negative – the Heldrake can’t hold objectives any more, and you have to plan a bit more to use it, and it’s slightly slower, but it’s harder to hit and potentially faster when it wants to be. But the kicker is that its stats and offensive power are much better. In addition to having WS/BS 3+ to start like other vehicles and 5A base now (these do not degrade, by the way), every one of its weapons have improved. The Baleflamer is now Assault 2D3. The Hades Autocannon is AP-2. And the Heldrake Claws do a flat 2 damage, which jumps up to 4 against enemy AIRCRAFT, making the Heldrake an absolute monster for fighting enemy planes out of the sky. Sure, this won’t happen often, but it’s going to be hilarious when it does and even without it, he’s pretty good at fighting ground targets and jump units.

There’s one other thing worth mentioning here and that’s the Vector Strike Stratagem, another thing we’ll likely see again in the future Codex: CSM. For 1 CP Vector Strike can be used in the Movement phase after a Heldrake moves to pick an enemy unit it moved over that isn’t a character with 9 or fewer wounds and roll a D6; on a 2+ they take D3 mortal wounds… unless they can FLY, in which case they take 3 instead. Add this to the Warpflame Gargoyles Stratagem to do mortal wounds to enemy units within Engagement range and you’ve got yourself an incredibly nasty flyer that can also toss out more mortal wounds and pick off key targets. The Heldrake wins my award for “most improved unit” in the book.
I'm super-happy about the Forgefiend.

I've got a pair of them, one triple Ecto, one double Hades and an Ecto. The increased range is a massive boost, and Daemon Engines are finally better shots/fighters than Guardsmen, something I've always hated since GW put them at 4+. More strength/attacks on the Mauler is a nice touch as well, and it no longer degrades. Yay!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/07 14:52:32


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Yeh range increases are nice, the 24" on the ecto used to make you feel vulnerable to getting caught in melee so you then wanted the jaws which reduced it's shooting output. Triple ecto at 36" seems nice, blast means your really don't want it getting tagged tho.
Double Hades really chews through marines now and 48" means you can probably clear a rear objective quite easily over a couple of turns

   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Thinking a bit more on this new information I'm really not sure why goonhammer are so stoked on the heldrake changes.

It goes from 150 to 165pts for both weapon options. I'm not really sure what it brings to the table, you're very rarely gonna be up against other aircraft, if you want to attack ground targets you're reduced to 20" move so first turn tags of opponents big guns is basically off which was really it's main appeal.

They've rounded off the damage output but not increased it in any way (2D3 flamer, 2D claws. It's less swingy but still pretty pillowfisted).

You can't get engage or claim objectives with it so it's list a lot of utility. So it's basically an aircraft that can also give up the bulk of its aircraft perks to do a little light melee. At 165pts you compare it to something like a storm talon/hawk and it seems pretty mediocre.

As far as the other DEs go, maulerfiend stays at 140pts but now pays 10pts extra for the lasher tendrils so he's looking better overall, the tendrils have been pretty neutered and the cutters are a little awkward to get use of. At 140pts it's pretty comparable to other options like a contemptor with a chainfist but the contemptor probably has more utility due to the better gun options and core. You're not paying out a CP tho.

With the Forgefiend Triple plasma goes from 145 to 155pts while the Hades version goes from 135pts to 160pts, 175pts if you want the extra plasma head.

I think both the forgefiend options look okay at the price but probably not gonna break into competitive, especially if disco lord loses his +1 to hit buff.

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, I agree. They are better of course, but I hardly think the new stats on the Daemon Engines will make them OP in any form.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Any cool models for the new kill team? Thankee thankee.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Abaddon303 wrote:
Thinking a bit more on this new information I'm really not sure why goonhammer are so stoked on the heldrake changes.

It goes from 150 to 165pts for both weapon options. I'm not really sure what it brings to the table, you're very rarely gonna be up against other aircraft, if you want to attack ground targets you're reduced to 20" move so first turn tags of opponents big guns is basically off which was really it's main appeal.

They've rounded off the damage output but not increased it in any way (2D3 flamer, 2D claws. It's less swingy but still pretty pillowfisted).

You can't get engage or claim objectives with it so it's list a lot of utility. So it's basically an aircraft that can also give up the bulk of its aircraft perks to do a little light melee. At 165pts you compare it to something like a storm talon/hawk and it seems pretty mediocre.


Agreed.

The Heldrake is now a Helbrute with Fly and less shooting. Hard to see it tying up units first turn or doing much beyond harassing light infantry.

Maulerfiends being able to ignore charge modifiers is a big deal tho. Arguably, this will do some of what Heldrakes used to do.

   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: