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are there time machine in 40K?

In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?

Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....

Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?

david choe wrote:
are there time machine in 40K?

In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?

Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....

Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?

Apocryphal fluff from Ian Watson suggests the Black Library IS a time machine.

Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).

 Shidank wrote:

david choe wrote:
are there time machine in 40K?

In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?

Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....

Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?

Apocryphal fluff from Ian Watson suggests the Black Library IS a time machine.

Then why not travel in there before the fall and fix things?

 Manchu wrote:
Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).

Since the Warp itself is raw energy and time itself is measured as such, time would be largely irrelevant in the warp. While it seems plausible for a time machine to exist, one would think the very nature of the warp would make it impossible to work with any kind of precision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

david choe wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

david choe wrote:
are there time machine in 40K?

In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?

Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....

Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?

Apocryphal fluff from Ian Watson suggests the Black Library IS a time machine.

Then why not travel in there before the fall and fix things?

Because the Eldar know better.

 Manchu wrote:
Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).

Yeah.. I've heard that too..

What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?

david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).

Yeah.. I've heard that too..

What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?

Like I said, the very nature of the warp means that doing so with any precision would be intrinsically impossible. The Black Library alone seems to actually work and it's inside the webway(and outside reality itself, for all intents and purposes).

No machine or mathematics would accurately predict warp spontaneity to such a degree as to make practical time travel functional in 40k.

The nature of the Warp itself is erratic and unreliable. The instances of a ship arriving before it left are not repeatable, and that same ship may leave and arrive 5000 years late. Harnessing it is not feasible given the dangerous nature of the warp to anything but daemons, who can just burst through wherever the barrier is weak enough.

A theory I proposed a while back - including currents that go backwards in time.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613298.page

david choe wrote:
What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?

Let's just think it through. Who would/could do such a thing?

- Imperium: they have the motive (save Emperor) but they don't have the tech

- Necrons: no motive -- they have made no progress since the War In Heaven that would give them an advantage

- DE: no motive - they like how things turned out

- Chaos Daemons: probably have little concept of time

- CSM: disparate motives; Ahriman presumably has thought of this and not been successful

- Craftworld Eldar: no motive -- they could not prevent the demise of the Eldar Empire back then, what good would it do to go back and try again?

- Tau: no motive (things have mostly gone well for them) and they don't have the tech

- Nids: no motive -- hunger is eternal

 Manchu wrote:

david choe wrote:
What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?

Let's just think it through. Who would/could do such a thing?

- Imperium: they have the motive (save Emperor) but they don't have the tech

- Necrons: no motive -- they have made no progress since the War In Heaven that would give them an advantage

- DE: no motive - they like how things turned out

- Chaos Daemons: probably have little concept of time

- CSM: disparate motives; Ahriman presumably has thought of this and not been successful

- Craftworld Eldar: no motive -- they could not prevent the demise of the Eldar Empire back then, what good would it do to go back and try again?

- Tau: no motive (things have mostly gone well for them) and they don't have the tech

- Nids: no motive -- hunger is eternal

I was thinking the humans would want this because they have the gak end of the sticks for both Imperials and Chaos humans.

Whom ever travel back to 29000 should warn the Imperial of the Horus heresy and the Chaos human faction also should warn of Horus that he will die so.. don't feth around with the lower shield and just finished Terra and the Emperor quick.....

I mean... Chaos themselves should try to send their boys back to key point and harness whatever they wish....

Each faction has problem.

As Manchu said, Chaos Space Marines are fractured. There is no dedicated ability to research. Not a lot of Chaos Gods devotees to research and study of time travel. Plus, as thralls of the gods, they also are at their whim, and the Chaos Gods are quite content with things. There's no need for them to go back to muck about with the Heresy.

As far as the Imperium of Man, it just isn't in the cards. Technology and its development is either stagnant or backwards, combine that with a rather justified fear of the Warp and nobody is going to go near that. As I said before, the Warp is unstable, and more to the point, there's no way to safely research it.

 curran12 wrote:
Each faction has problem.

As Manchu said, Chaos Space Marines are fractured. There is no dedicated ability to research. Not a lot of Chaos Gods devotees to research and study of time travel. Plus, as thralls of the gods, they also are at their whim, and the Chaos Gods are quite content with things. There's no need for them to go back to muck about with the Heresy.

As far as the Imperium of Man, it just isn't in the cards. Technology and its development is either stagnant or backwards, combine that with a rather justified fear of the Warp and nobody is going to go near that. As I said before, the Warp is unstable, and more to the point, there's no way to safely research it.

We're still ignoring that the nature of the warp makes it impossible to perform accurate time travel. You're right when you say there's just not a way to research it.

Using the Warp is basically like using a time machine, except it is extremely unreliable and dangerous, and is inhabited by malevolent gods.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Using the Warp is basically like using a time machine, except it is extremely unreliable and dangerous, and is inhabited by malevolent gods.

Going to sleep and waking up 7 hours later is a more reliable time machine.

And way less likely to kill you.

 Shidank wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Using the Warp is basically like using a time machine, except it is extremely unreliable and dangerous, and is inhabited by malevolent gods.

Going to sleep and waking up 7 hours later is a more reliable time machine.

And way less likely to kill you.

Yea, which is why building a time machine seems entirely crazy in a universe with the Warp. The Chaos Gods would mess it up anyhow!

 curran12 wrote:
Each faction has problem.

As Manchu said, Chaos Space Marines are fractured. There is no dedicated ability to research. Not a lot of Chaos Gods devotees to research and study of time travel. Plus, as thralls of the gods, they also are at their whim, and the Chaos Gods are quite content with things. There's no need for them to go back to muck about with the Heresy.

As far as the Imperium of Man, it just isn't in the cards. Technology and its development is either stagnant or backwards, combine that with a rather justified fear of the Warp and nobody is going to go near that. As I said before, the Warp is unstable, and more to the point, there's no way to safely research it.

I'm not saying to go looking for time travel, I am saying if it landed on your lap... go with it. It should be protocol for the Imperial who uses Warp travel that if they went back in time ... do something useful for the cause. This whole theory and concept in of itself is interesting and could be a fluff.

The Imperial should have a protocol that if somebody did went back in time... come and support the Imperial cause and save it from trouble.

Has there been a fluff that has some Imperial agent come back from the future and stated what must be done? I guess they have.. kind of like the Eldar Farseer...

Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?

I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:

"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos

The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.

 curran12 wrote:
Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?

I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:

"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos

The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.

So the imperial protocol for time travel is...if you did went back in time, you must do everything the same and let everything fall as is.

A space wolf ship went back in time to the hersy...and they don't warn anybody? They just hide in the shadows and live out 10,000 years to catch up?

If CSM from hersy era pop in 10,000 to the future...ther must be just about equal of loyalist or traitor form current time time going back to the past?

BTW- that order is no longer around.

Aren't you guys missing one faction in the whole motive thing?

Orks: Instead of fighting everyone everywhere, they could get to fight everyone, everywhere, in every time, all the time. Truly the happiest of outcomes.

As for the technology... ok yeah, they probably haven't got that.

I doubt there is a written policy in some kind of book that SPECIFICALLY says what happens when you go back in time but ideally, people are expected not to interfere with the Emperor's Plan.

Also, you need to keep in mind that should something actually make it back to Heresy era, there are a lot of things that are different. Chief among them is that there is no Astronomicon, the beacon that all 40k Warp travel needs to navigate. Even if a ship managed to pop out of the Warp in just the right time to actually influence something as monumental as the Heresy, they are not going to be able to just get to Terra. And it isn't like the clocks on the ship just roll back to the right time, either. That Space Wolf ship you mentioned would come out and go do their mission, they would only know something is wrong once they made planetfall or were otherwise given some huge sign of it. Likewise, communications are not going to be much help. We've seen how glacially slow communications are in the Imperium, and while in Heresy era things were better with clearer leaders, there is still that gargantuan backlog of communications that might not make it anywhere. The long and short of it is that, while we with perfect hindsight and an omniscient view of the universe can see it working, once you're commanding that ship, you can't tell.

Also, as far as Hersey era CSM, they already do that. Time flows differently in the Warp, so there are tons of Heresy-era Chaos Marines fighting in the modern time, including such big names as Abbadon, Kharn, Typhus, Fabius Bile, Lucius the Eternal...and so on so on.

david choe wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?

I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:

"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos

The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.

So the imperial protocol for time travel is...if you did went back in time, you must do everything the same and let everything fall as is.

A space wolf ship went back in time to the hersy...and they don't warn anybody? They just hide in the shadows and live out 10,000 years to catch up?

If CSM from hersy era pop in 10,000 to the future...ther must be just about equal of loyalist or traitor form current time time going back to the past?

I never knew about the Ordo dedicated to time. Good find!

I thought there was some piece of fluff recently that implied the Necrons did hold time-travel tech?

 curran12 wrote:
I doubt there is a written policy in some kind of book that SPECIFICALLY says what happens when you go back in time but ideally, people are expected not to interfere with the Emperor's Plan.

Also, you need to keep in mind that should something actually make it back to Heresy era, there are a lot of things that are different. Chief among them is that there is no Astronomicon, the beacon that all 40k Warp travel needs to navigate. Even if a ship managed to pop out of the Warp in just the right time to actually influence something as monumental as the Heresy, they are not going to be able to just get to Terra. And it isn't like the clocks on the ship just roll back to the right time, either. That Space Wolf ship you mentioned would come out and go do their mission, they would only know something is wrong once they made planetfall or were otherwise given some huge sign of it. Likewise, communications are not going to be much help. We've seen how glacially slow communications are in the Imperium, and while in Heresy era things were better with clearer leaders, there is still that gargantuan backlog of communications that might not make it anywhere. The long and short of it is that, while we with perfect hindsight and an omniscient view of the universe can see it working, once you're commanding that ship, you can't tell.

Also, as far as Hersey era CSM, they already do that. Time flows differently in the Warp, so there are tons of Heresy-era Chaos Marines fighting in the modern time, including such big names as Abbadon, Kharn, Typhus, Fabius Bile, Lucius the Eternal...and so on so on.

But that is my point...you got tons of CSM from the past in 40k...and in the hersy....it would have been cool to see current SM helping out in 30k.

In the SW example...so they landed and no orks....the planets is normal...with humans farming the planet as normal. They ask for date... The found out they are in 29k...they know their chapter history...maybe now would be the time to travel to places that needed help?

I would like to see a novella on David's idea. It could create some nice back-fluff.

Possibly. Though at the same time, I can only imagine the response on the other said going something like...

Emperor: Hey, Russ, we got this ship full of guys who say they are with you.
Russ: Huh? No. I got everyone here.
Emperor: They say they're from the future.
Russ: Uh huh...

And then they shoot every lance battery at them.

 curran12 wrote:
Possibly. Though at the same time, I can only imagine the response on the other said going something like...

Emperor: Hey, Russ, we got this ship full of guys who say they are with you.
Russ: Huh? No. I got everyone here.
Emperor: They say they're from the future.
Russ: Uh huh...

And then they shoot every lance battery at them.

Malcador would quarantine them. They would likely have never seen the light of day, but he would have wrung every drop of intel from them.

david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).

Yeah.. I've heard that too..

What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?

Orikan the Diviner does exactly this. He makes a prophecy, and then goes skipping through time to make sure it comes true.

 curran12 wrote:
Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?

I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:

"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos

The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.

An entire Ordo doesn't mean much, though, there's an Ordo comprised of a single Inquisitor

 Psienesis wrote:

david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).

Yeah.. I've heard that too..

What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?

Orikan the Diviner does exactly this. He makes a prophecy, and then goes skipping through time to make sure it comes true.

It's more like he makes a prediction and then uses his time machine to go back and fix (read as remove) any outlier he didn't take into consideration or failed to see when he originally made his prediction.