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Meeting Dakka-ites,

Slow

Radio

Three things I forgot to mention in my first post:

1. It was fantastic meeting this many other dakka-ites in person. Friday and Saturday, I probably met 15 other Dakka-ites. Having people come up to me and say, "Dashofpepper?" and then meeting someone who's name or avatar I recognize, and putting a face to it is an individually fantastic experience.

2. I also learned this weekend that I'm not the fastest Ork player. =p I've been playing DE for the most part since about April, and switched back to Orks for this event. I didn't practice, didn't look at the missions ahead of time, no kind of prep - I made what I consider some glaringly obvious mistakes during several of my games (and I'll illustrate them during my battle reports). My DE are fast, few in number, and my turns go quickly. My orks: Having that many models, combined with being a little rusty meant that I was playing very carefully - spectators and opponents probably noted that at the end of every phase, I physically pointed at every unit and talked to myself to make sure that they had done something. Even so, I still made some mistakes, forgot some units, etc.

3. Speaking of being slow.....*laughing* Perhaps my mental acuity is slowing with age, but I'm a little slow to catch some jokes, which made my time on the Radio doubly fun. My "Dashofpepper" shirt says "D to the Ork" on the back, and I didn't get the joke until my wife pointed it out to me. I was on the radio / live feed with Chumbalaya during Tony/Mark's final game doing commentary. Mark was playing blue blood angels, Tony was playing red space wolves (which I found ironic). Chumby made a joke about Mark's blue balls. Everyone laughed. I made a joke about Chumby talking about Mark's crotch. Everyone laughed. Five minutes later I realized that he was talking about his Baal predators (which I thought were pronounced "Bale"). I commented that I just got the ball joke. Everyone laughed harder.

The radio bit was fun, and having a live broadcasted coverage of 40k games by people who can joke with each other and pay attention to the game is nice as well. @Mike: The only feedback there is that the radio commentors should have an elevated position, or a way to see what's happening in the game better. I kept having to ask the players what just happened, what just shot so that I could make a note about it. My suggestion: Rent a stage (the small collapsable kind) and put the commentors on it, with the "top table" or "top spectacle match" on that table perpendicular and right underneath the commentators so that they can see the whole table right underneath them. That would be perfect.

A couple of thoughts:

VP's vs KP's - no problem with either one - although the difference DOES influence your army build - or your play style. For example - in KP's a LR is worth 1 KP (not that KP's are cheap) in VP game it's 250+ VP's. A single shot can kill it from a low cost unit/model (best example - DE warrior with Dark Lance). Are you more aggressive with it if it only gives up 1 KP vs 250+ VP's in a game - probably. This is in no way a complaint - whatever the TO decides for his tournament is fine with me. BUT - I do feel it changes things for the meta game and army builds for those that try to make this stuff a science.

@Dash - with no disrespect intended - I kinda disagree with your thoughts about the SW codex being so much better than other codexes. You yourself are a perfect example - you obviously play orks well. You played against the best codex ran by a good player - and for all intents and purposes played it to a draw - with bad luck on your dice rolls. While some of the older dexes do have issues with the newer ones - at the end of the day - some people will play better with a certain army style and some people are just good enough to win with about anything.

@MVbrandt - sounds like the tournament was a success - congratulations.

I will say without any doubt in my mind that Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both better than codex space marines, unless your doing a biker marine list. This makes me sad, but oh well, what can you do.... i'll have to re-write my codex marine list using blood angels.

I know Mark Ferek used crimson fists as blood angels... I can't remember though if he had his guys with bolt pistols and chainswords, or with bolters though. Anyone shed some light on this?

Mark actually built his list with a lot of BA models, and with proper WYSIWYG, and infernus pistols instead of counts-as, etc.,

He just PAINTED them as Crimson Fists ... b/c he likes Crimson Fists. Even got the forgeworld / GW bits, and did freehand fists on all the Rhinos, etc.; he was one of the better looking lists in the finals.


Tony ran CSM for a while as he was younger, before going to TWC. While chaosy, he went out of his way to ensure things looked appropriate / etc.

oh I'm not questioning his modeling / painting abilities, and i'm sure if they weren't WYSIWYG i'd have asked him about it during our round 3 game. I just honestly couldn't remember though. I know chaos marines have bolt pistols and CCW's, but often are shown with bolters and nobody questions it, so I was wondering if its similar for blood angels, because then it would be really easy for me to get away with just saying "i'm blood angels now"

I would like to thank Mike, the Nova Open staff, the people I played and all the people I met for a really good time. It was really fun playing and meeting several people from dakka despite getting a huge headache in the middle of the day Saturday. Friday was pretty cool as I had a game with an old friend from my college days and met a lot of people. Took lots of pictures and hope to have time to write up a battle report and post them. We didn't stay for Sunday as none of us made day 2 and my friend frgsinwntr needed to get back for family business.

Did any IG players make top 8? If VPs instead of KPs was such a big deal, IG would benefit from this. IMO Kill Points does balance out having many troops in vehicles which is better in objective missions.

Regarding KPs vs. VPs, certain scenarios at Mechanicon last year used VPs that operated a little more like KPs.

Put simply, those scenarios used VPs, but scored double VPs for every unit fully destroyed. Tony designed it that way so there's a little more of a penalty for MSU without some of the distortions that KPs can create.

Personally I think scoring differences across the circuit is a good thing and adds some color. Although I think it's disingenous to compare 40K to a sport, golfers and tennis players have to adjust their games to the challenges posed by different types of courses, court surfaces and even scoring systems (such as the Stableford system in golf). I don't think it's fundamentally different with 40K. Good players will adjust their lists and games.

Congrats to the winners and everyone involved! It sounds like it was a great event and I'd like to attend next year. Unfortunately my wife is expecting any day now and so it wasn't to be this year.

Hope to see some of you guys at Mechanicon in November...

Dashofpepper wrote:

The radio bit was fun, and having a live broadcasted coverage of 40k games by people who can joke with each other and pay attention to the game is nice as well. @Mike: The only feedback there is that the radio commentors should have an elevated position, or a way to see what's happening in the game better. I kept having to ask the players what just happened, what just shot so that I could make a note about it. My suggestion: Rent a stage (the small collapsable kind) and put the commentors on it, with the "top table" or "top spectacle match" on that table perpendicular and right underneath the commentators so that they can see the whole table right underneath them. That would be perfect.

Or may be have a Video cam set up so the commentators can watch the live feed?

heh, I find it funny how after any major GT, the top armies are always claimed to be "codex creep" or the "uber OP army of the week". After adepiticon it was guard, now its SW.

I assume if 3 tyranid players were in top spots than nids would be OP?

I still stand by my post 2 pages back, its hard for SW not to be in top spots when as I see it 60-70% of the armies present were marines.

Is there a convenient linky to the results / summary of the finals? Pretty please? . I read MVBrandt's summary of the semis a page or so ago, but was hoping for a little more detail.

Also, where did the other people from the finals (besides the winner and second place) end up in the results? I couldn't quite discern that from reading what was posted here so far.

I must admit, I was impressed that both Dash and Stelek went undefeated to the semifinals. Way to back up the talk, fellas! Credit where credit is due and all

Okay, someone link me please!!! I'd also be interested in finding out the fantasy results, since that's actually the game I play! And I'm thinking of going to 'Ard Boyz, so it'd be interesting to see what armies did well.

Sounds like a pretty good event!

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
and now Space Wolves are the best codex right now (and the reason for so many SW players there).

Do people really flock to the winningest army? How sad.

You can blame GW for that. If you want to see more armies other than Marines, then GW needs to start putting out more codices that aren't Marines.

And seeing as how every other army that gets released has to be Marines (or the company will apparently go under), you'll continue to see more than half the attendees of any event bringing them. And that's any event, no matter how competitive, because believe it or not it's not just the competitive ones who want to win all the time.

And regarding the "Blue Baals" joke - That was me and not Frodo (Chumbayala)

Nice to get some faced behind the names, helps a lot.

Also, if I'm not playing next year but probably going, I would be willing to help in "commentating" though I'd hafta work on it...Chummmbyyyy...

Sidstyler wrote:

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
and now Space Wolves are the best codex right now (and the reason for so many SW players there).

Do people really flock to the winningest army? How sad.

You can blame GW for that. If you want to see more armies other than Marines, then GW needs to start putting out more codices that aren't Marines.

Tyranids came out pretty recently, no?

For those that have asked ...

88 x 40k Armies (8 players canceled for emergent/travel issue reasons at the last minute)

14 x Vanilla Space Marine
14 x Blood Angel
11 x Space Wolf
10 x Imperial Guard
8 x Chaos Space Marine
7 x Ork
6 x Eldar
4 x Tyranid
4 x Tau
3 x Demons of Chaos
2 x Dark Angels
2 x Witch Hunters
1 x Black Templar
1 x Demon Hunters
1 x Necron
0 x Dark Eldar

MVBrandt wrote:For those that have asked ...

88 x 40k Armies (8 players canceled for emergent/travel issue reasons at the last minute)

So just for the math impaired... Less than half were 'marine' armies.

Players Codex Percent Marine?
14 Vanilla SM 15.91% x
14 Blood Ange l15.91% x
11 Space Wolf 12.50% x
10 Imperial Guard 11.36%
8 Chaos SM 9.09%
7 Ork 7.95%
6 Eldar 6.82%
4 Tyranid 4.55%
4 Tau 4.55%
3 Demons of Chaos 3.41%
2 Dark Angels 2.27% x
2 Witch Hunters 2.27%
1 Black Templar 1.14% x
1 Demon Hunters 1.14% x
1 Necron 1.14%
0 Dark Eldar 0.00%
88 Total
43 Marines 48.86%

Can't fix the formatting, so meh.

There were really 14 Blood Angels? I knew there were a lot of other red armies on Saturday but I hadn't realized there were quite that many.

damn, and here I thought I was being unique and rebellious by going vanilla marines instead of something more common like blood nipple marines or puppies. But I picked the majority!

It would be interesting to know how many of those vanilla marines finished 3-1, and how many finished worse that day, though.

Man I really wish the Necrons had taken it all...

pretre wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:For those that have asked ...

88 x 40k Armies (8 players canceled for emergent/travel issue reasons at the last minute)

So just for the math impaired... Less than half were 'marine' armies.

Players Codex Percent Marine?
14 Vanilla SM 15.91% x
14 Blood Ange l15.91% x
11 Space Wolf 12.50% x
10 Imperial Guard 11.36%
8 Chaos SM 9.09%
7 Ork 7.95%
6 Eldar 6.82%
4 Tyranid 4.55%
4 Tau 4.55%
3 Demons of Chaos 3.41%
2 Dark Angels 2.27% x
2 Witch Hunters 2.27%
1 Black Templar 1.14% x
1 Demon Hunters 1.14% x
1 Necron 1.14%
0 Dark Eldar 0.00%
88 Total
43 Marines 48.86%

Can't fix the formatting, so meh.

less than half? hows your math......50/88=56% unless you dont consider CSM a varient of marines, which I do (as well, they get everything marines get, only chaosified). Even minus the CSM its still 47% marines.

Monster Rain wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
and now Space Wolves are the best codex right now (and the reason for so many SW players there).

Do people really flock to the winningest army? How sad.

You can blame GW for that. If you want to see more armies other than Marines, then GW needs to start putting out more codices that aren't Marines.

Tyranids came out pretty recently, no?

I don't even think GW remembers putting out Tyranids this year. It took them 6 months to put out a gakky FAQ for them, which did nothing but screw them over, and there's no talk or sign of a second wave at all.

But yeah, you're right, Tyranids did come out. In between Space Wolves and Blood Angels. So like I said, every other codex is a Marine codex.

MVBrandt wrote:For those that have asked ...

88 x 40k Armies (8 players canceled for emergent/travel issue reasons at the last minute)

14 x Vanilla Space Marine
14 x Blood Angel
11 x Space Wolf
10 x Imperial Guard
8 x Chaos Space Marine
7 x Ork
6 x Eldar
4 x Tyranid
4 x Tau
3 x Demons of Chaos
2 x Dark Angels
2 x Witch Hunters
1 x Black Templar
1 x Demon Hunters
1 x Necron
0 x Dark Eldar

88 people. Wow. So 7 rounds of Swiss next time right?

Mafty wrote:

pretre wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:For those that have asked ...

88 x 40k Armies (8 players canceled for emergent/travel issue reasons at the last minute)

So just for the math impaired... Less than half were 'marine' armies.

Players Codex Percent Marine?
14 Vanilla SM 15.91% x
14 Blood Ange l15.91% x
11 Space Wolf 12.50% x
10 Imperial Guard 11.36%
8 Chaos SM 9.09%
7 Ork 7.95%
6 Eldar 6.82%
4 Tyranid 4.55%
4 Tau 4.55%
3 Demons of Chaos 3.41%
2 Dark Angels 2.27% x
2 Witch Hunters 2.27%
1 Black Templar 1.14% x
1 Demon Hunters 1.14% x
1 Necron 1.14%
0 Dark Eldar 0.00%
88 Total
43 Marines 48.86%

Can't fix the formatting, so meh.

less than half? hows your math......50/88=56% unless you dont consider CSM a varient of marines, which I do (as well, they get everything marines get, only chaosified).

I know I love my Chaos Landspeeders.

Why does it matter?

I meant stat line wise they are marines, they get land raiders, rhinos, predators, demolishers......

Anyways, if anyone wants to see some bat reps Ive put up all 4 of my games here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311437.page

Mafty wrote:I meant stat line wise they are marines, they get land raiders, rhinos, predators, demolishers......

Anyways, if anyone wants to see some bat reps Ive put up all 4 of my games here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311437.page

Psst. My math is right there in my post. Including a little X next to all the 'marines'.

And the Emperor is very sad at you equating foul heretics with Loyalists.

I find it interesting that out of 11 Space Wolf players.....5/8 in the finals were Space Puppies?

In regard to my earlier note about the disparity in codex power, I think this is a great demonstration. Hulksmash with Space Wolves: Virtually unbeatable. Hulksmash with Daemons: 3-1.

I'm not knocking any individual who brought Space Wolves to the finals; just noting a trend. Either half+ of the "best players" at the Nova Open took Space Wolves....OR....Space Wolves are simply a better codex than other offerings. I think that IG stepped up the game head and shoulders in power. Space Wolves had to take a step up in return. Tyranids simply failed. And now Blood Angels....I could do some theorycrafting here involving people having already jumped on an extremely powerful marine variant (SW) and not jumping ship...

ANyway, that's my thoughts.

Personally I think a big part of the results your seeing are based on the format as well.

1) VP's vs. KP's does factor into it for helping push SW's farther forward. While I don't change my list either way and carry 20ish KP's in my wolf list it is a worry of mine. Taking out KP's does remove the primary threat to my army really.

2) SW's are friggin consistant. A 7 game format rewards consistant armies with solid troop choices. Non-marine armies generally aren't as consistant. Marines are middle of the road capable. You can solidly rely on almost everything in their army to always perform to a minimum level. Build a list based on the minimum and be a good general and you'll make people cry all day long. The same can not be said for non-Marine dexes (including Chaos). Which is why generally you'll see over long haul tournaments the SM/Variants place at the top levels.

Personally I don't think SW's are over the top. I don't even think they are the best codex out there. But what they are is very, very versatile. There are a number of different build styles you can run. I think you'll see BA's soon jumping up (though 2nd ain't bad ) as people find a style with them (also a very flexible codex). Orks are friggin insane and also a very versatile codex. Guard are also extremely versatile but people are stuck on the solid mech variant and that doesn't cut it against aggressive marine players which is why guard are dropping as SM's learn that aggressive play beat IG.

Personally I think a few codexes are at a disadvantage coming into a tournament but that most of the dexes are very competitive. The only disadvantaged ones are Necrons and DH. All other codexes have competitive builds and can run it hard to the top if built well.

Overall a hell of an event. I had a blast. Had 3 close games and a dice hate me game which I then compounded with a few mistakes (though it did come down to a run move for the win). I'm looking forward to next year as this is definitely on my list of must attend events!

I personally vote for KP's next year to see what happens. I know Mike playtested and has evidence about the correlation of VP's vs. KP's but to me they are a part of the game and should be used because of it.

Space Wolves have a few things going for them:

Long Fangs Squads

Shutting Down Psychics on a straight roll of 3+,4+, or 5+ depending on the situation.

Ability to take scoring units with a 3+ armor save, base 2 close combat attacks, counter attack, and the wolf standard means Grey Hunters can hold their own in close combat just fine.

Thunderwolf Cav

The ability to tool up HQ choices and give things such as Saga of the Bear & Warrior Born to make SUPER TANKS

LoganWing

With the exception of the ability to twin link meltas & flamers and take some equipment just about anything you can do in the regular space marine codex you can do in the space wolf codex, and maybe better or for fewer points.

Space Wolves can be very hard to beat when built to take advantage of the codex & played well.

Plus going 2nd against 3 longfang squads can really put you in a hole to start a game.

Hulksmash wrote:
Personally I don't think SW's are over the top. I don't even think they are the best codex out there. But what they are is very, very versatile. There are a number of different build styles you can run. I think you'll see BA's soon jumping up (though 2nd ain't bad ) as people find a style with them (also a very flexible codex). Orks are friggin insane and also a very versatile codex. Guard are also extremely versatile but people are stuck on the solid mech variant and that doesn't cut it against aggressive marine players which is why guard are dropping as SM's learn that aggressive play beat IG.
.

I agree with this entirely. What makes wolves solid is you can take a list which has literally no holes in it. No easy thing to exploit. When playing say tau or necrons you can exploit their lack of hand to hand, when playing nids you can make them cry by denying them assaults. Wolves can shoot you and assault you, and the number and variety of tools in their box means a good general can do anything with the army.

Well I think its the fact that the TROOPS in SW and BA are incredibly usefull, which a lot of armies cant say the same. Looking at Tony (winner) list, he has 63 marines, 35 of which are troops, 5 tanks, 10 missiles, 2 lascannons, 4 melta, 3 combi-melta, and a ton of psyker and anti-psker.

I think the book just lends itself to really good builds.