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Melissia wrote:

Kreedos wrote:Most people are saying it can't be played

You can keep making things up which aren't true all ya want, but they're still not true.

I like how you think my post was about you, like I trying to quote you or something. I really can't hold much you say to any legitimacy, seeing as most of what you say about the game, GW, and quite frankly all your opinions about anything seem to just ooze pessimism. Nothing of what you've been saying in this thread seems to have any kind of constructive value, all I've been hearing is GW hate, and that it's the end of the world for Sisters of Battle as we know it. If you don't think the army is good keep your Sisters on the shelf, and go play your IG like the all star you make yourself out to me.

Cofessor Dallax wrote:Also agree. This stinks of a 'real world' business decision to get rid of stock...

Why do people keep claiming this when the evidence proves otherwise?

If GW wanted to get rid of stock, then they'd price it to move and they'd make it easy to get. Currently Sisters are the single most expensive figures to purchase by a fairly wide margin. And they're the most difficult army to collect because everything needs to be ordered - and can only be ordered through GW's website or a GW store. You can't get them at all at your local non-GW FLGS, and your local GW store doesn't have them sitting on the rack if you just happen to drop in.

While GW hasn't made it's rationale behind the release of the Sisters WD 'dex clear, it's pretty obvious that clearing out their old metal stock of Sisters figures is not one of the reasons for doing so. Otherwise, GW would have taken steps to make it easier and less expensive to purchase the figures.

Eumerin wrote:

Cofessor Dallax wrote:Also agree. This stinks of a 'real world' business decision to get rid of stock...

Why do people keep claiming this when the evidence proves otherwise?

If GW wanted to get rid of stock, then they'd price it to move and they'd make it easy to get. Currently Sisters are the single most expensive figures to purchase by a fairly wide margin. And they're the most difficult army to collect because everything needs to be ordered - and can only be ordered through GW's website or a GW store. You can't get them at all at your local non-GW FLGS, and your local GW store doesn't have them sitting on the rack if you just happen to drop in.

While GW hasn't made it's rationale behind the release of the Sisters WD 'dex clear, it's pretty obvious that clearing out their old metal stock of Sisters figures is not one of the reasons for doing so. Otherwise, GW would have taken steps to make it easier and less expensive to purchase the figures.

So what evidence do you have to the contrary or even a compelling argument to suggest that this isn't the case?
Games Workshop have put their prices up to ridiculous new levels on ALL of their products this year, when they HAVE to be aware that there is a global economic crisis going on. They are obviously aware that there are some nut cases like myself who will still try to buy their products even at extortionate prices, that's why. Sell less but make more money when doing so. I mean let's be serious for a moment - when have Games Workshop made anything cheaper in the last x years???
Some stupid business analyst like myself has looked at the sales figures and come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly), that this is the best idea.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Try swaping that multi melta for a missile launcher. But the number I got for the sisters was from Kreedo's list a few pages back 220 for a melta, a combi melta and missile seems pretty close to 195 for a melta and Heavy Flamer. I promised I wasn't gonna do misery poker, but seriously, nilla marines aren't that bad and the only reason the "optimal" build is 25% more is because of all the extra options.

The melta and missile cost the same and you're not firing either one very effectively without vulkan in there (i will never stoop that low!).

You're paying more for the heavy flamer which is a good weapon. Cut that out and just throw on a combi and you're dropping points while equaling out to the damage output of the marine squad. Even if I drop the fist you're still hovering at 25% less. You pay less for more firepower at short range, but you also pay less for worse assault stats (somewhat irrelevant when compared to tacs since they fold like lawn chairs) and the lack of ATSKNF (the sisters faith power works similarly). While not having access to long range heavy weapons.

It's a tradeoff, but it's one that I would enjoy given what is in my experience the total irrelevance of the strength and toughness of a tactical marine in the face of triple hammer handing grey knights, battlecanons, ork boy squads (where atsknf is damning), splinter canons, thunderhammers, etc. I'd rather have focused and directed anti horde/mech firepower on a cheap, mobile platform backed up by an army that sports considerable close range anti mech then I would an overcosted mixed weapon squad that is a jack of all trades and terrible at every one. The sister is no grey hunter or ork boy, but it's a good solid troops choice in the current game. It's telling that so many sisters players are somehow identifying the core troop as the lists weakness.

Check my math here. With a power fist, a melta gun and a missile/multimelta/heavy bolter marines are 20% more than Kreedo's sister squad, which is not making use of a simalaricum. But if you trim the marine back to still very effective free weapons and drop the fist for a power weapon it closes to 13% and still has the same ranged combat effectiveness as the sister squad. Now granted, the sisters could shave a few points as well by dropping to a flamer and a melta and ditching the combiweapon, but then we are starting to noticeably restrict their firepower. Still don't have my WDdex, but I would call those very similar costs.

As far as close combat effectiveness, the extra Str, Tou and most importantly initiative certainly do make a difference, especially since you can add that power fist you were talking about earlier. Sure triple hammer grey knights will slam marines hard, but that is why they cost 25% more than a marine per model. Granted, that still seems a little cheap, but i am not talking about how great GKs are. What truly makes tac marines so useful is their flexibilty. Sure that seems to get lost when compared to wolves, angels and knights, but a tac squad is still a force to be noted or, sometimes, two.

As far as the AoF being the same as ATSKNF, kinda except ATSKNF requires no faith points, no roll, and can save you from a sweeping advance. And don't combat tactics apply as well. My nilla book aint handy, but it seems to me marines can pick and choose when they leave combat.

Now I am not going to say that i would trade basic sisters for a marine tac squad, cause then I would just play marines. But my point is not that basic sisters are a bad unit, it is that they are frighteningly close to the cost of a marine tac squad for what they do, and that seems wrong.

Actually no, that wasn't my point either, that was an aside. My point is there are not a lot of sisters players in this thread who are saying that the list is totally unplayable, most are just saying it is a bit crap and really even a minimum amount of effort could have made it s a lot better.

It sucks yes, however marines don't have Exorcists. Also their scouts suck ours rock the boat with 4x special, have a BS 4 and 3+ save.

Basically marines don't have access to anything really like the two or three units that ultimately win Sisters games.

Sisters have all of the tools they need to do their job, and they'll still excel at what they do best, melta and flamer.

Kreedos wrote:It sucks yes, however marines don't have Exorcists. Also their scouts suck ours rock the boat with 4x special, have a BS 4 and 3+ save.

Though 4 special in a 10 woman unit...

Kreedos wrote:It sucks yes, however marines don't have Exorcists. Also their scouts suck ours rock the boat with 4x special, have a BS 4 and 3+ save.

Basically marines don't have access to anything really like the two or three units that ultimately win Sisters games.

Sisters have all of the tools they need to do their job, and they'll still excel at what they do best, melta and flamer.

1 Unit? You want to base the entire army off 1 unit who is easy to kill?

Sure 3 of them will cause some havoc down a squad of MEQ ... blow up anything under 14 armor. But what do you do when they go down?

Throw in our elites? Who will get torn apart by most other troops choice...
Our HQ? Who will be 1 shoted by anything str 6 ...
Our Troops? choice who wont beable to damage anything with an armor save?
(And if they are in range for Meltas they are dead nxt turn. 2 deaths does not force a leadership check ...)

I will say we should try to stick in more dominions for their rending ... but its rending on what a 5+ off faith points?

The melta and missile cost the same and you're not firing either one very effectively without vulkan in there (i will never stoop that low!).

You're paying more for the heavy flamer which is a good weapon. Cut that out and just throw on a combi and you're dropping points while equaling out to the damage output of the marine squad. Even if I drop the fist you're still hovering at 25% less. You pay less for more firepower at short range, but you also pay less for worse assault stats (somewhat irrelevant when compared to tacs since they fold like lawn chairs) and the lack of ATSKNF (the sisters faith power works similarly). While not having access to long range heavy weapons.

It's a tradeoff, but it's one that I would enjoy given what is in my experience the total irrelevance of the strength and toughness of a tactical marine in the face of triple hammer handing grey knights, battlecanons, ork boy squads (where atsknf is damning), splinter canons, thunderhammers, etc. I'd rather have focused and directed anti horde/mech firepower on a cheap, mobile platform backed up by an army that sports considerable close range anti mech then I would an overcosted mixed weapon squad that is a jack of all trades and terrible at every one. The sister is no grey hunter or ork boy, but it's a good solid troops choice in the current game. It's telling that so many sisters players are somehow identifying the core troop as the lists weakness.

Agree 100%.

I just had to take a break from my usual lurking to give a shout out to Kreedos for the unflinching optimism in this thread. thank you.

my god all the negativity becomes tedious. I believe that the 'quality' of these new Sisters rules is very much in the eye of the beholder - there are the haters & there are those excited to accept a new challenge, and I'm sure both camps are right on.

so, my apologies to those of you who feel cheated here. and my blessing to those keeping the faith [bad pun is bad]

Kreedos wrote:I like how you think my post was about you, like I trying to quote you or something.

I wasn't. You're still making crap up.

Kreedos wrote:It sucks yes, however marines don't have Exorcists.

Marines have better vehicles than Exorcists.

Kreedos wrote:Also their scouts suck ours rock the boat with 4x special, have a BS 4 and 3+ save.

And Sternguard are better still, so are terminators-- what's your point? SM Scouts and SoB Dominions don't hold the same purpose, trying to force Scouts to do the same job Dominions do is proof that you don't understand how to play C:SM.

Kreedos wrote:Basically marines don't have access to anything really like the two or three units that ultimately win Sisters games.

Yes they do, and more, and BETTER.

Kreedos wrote:Sisters have all of the tools they need to do their job, and they'll still excel at what they do best, melta and flamer.

And Marines can do it better. So can Guard

Kreedos wrote:The Jacobs death cult is an amazingly good unit and it's not overpriced, talking 275 for a squad of 10 deathcult/crusaders + Jacobs in a Rhino

Isnt that 11 models then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:Try out a game with them before you shelf them guys, trust me on this.

Some of us arent interested in running an army that only has, basically, a playtest list. Not willing to invest any more models into that.

ShumaGorath wrote:It's a tradeoff, but it's one that I would enjoy given what is in my experience the total irrelevance of the strength and toughness of a tactical marine in the face of triple hammer handing grey knights, battlecanons, ork boy squads (where atsknf is damning), splinter canons, thunderhammers, etc. I'd rather have focused and directed anti horde/mech firepower on a cheap, mobile platform backed up by an army that sports considerable close range anti mech then I would an overcosted mixed weapon squad that is a jack of all trades and terrible at every one. The sister is no grey hunter or ork boy, but it's a good solid troops choice in the current game. It's telling that so many sisters players are somehow identifying the core troop as the lists weakness.

Why not run your marines army as counts-as Sisters of Battle from now on, then?

10 Sisters of Battle running a Flamer and Multi-Melta, mounted in a Rhino, come in at 15% cheaper than a similarly armed and mounted Tactical Marine squad. The tradeoff is that they can't Combat Squad, have an unreliable variant of ATSKNF that doesn't immunise them from Sweeping Advances, and have lower T, S, WS and I. Personally I would rather the difference was closer to 25%, to reflect their relative disadvantages in assault, but if wishes were horses beggars would ride. The cost of our basic Troops unit doesn't render the army unfieldable - but snide statements like "It's telling that so many sisters players are somehow identifying the core troop as the lists weakness", evidently intended to imply that the Codex is comparable to recent book Codices, will just get people's backs up and weaken the overall thrust of your argument (which I would largely agree with).

Can Seraphim fire their twin hand flamers independently, now, too? Because that would be silly. In a good way. Given their ridiculously low points cost, I'm tempted to just field 3 maxed squads with flamers. Despite all of my complaints, there are a few good things about this release.

JB_Man wrote:Can Seraphim fire their twin hand flamers independently, now, too? Because that would be silly. In a good way. Given their ridiculously low points cost, I'm tempted to just field 3 maxed squads with flamers. Despite all of my complaints, there are a few good things about this release.

The Seraphim Pistols rule applies to all weapons that have Pistol in their statblock, including Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols. So a Seraphim with two Hand Flamers gets to fire two templates in a shooting phase, and a Seraphim with two inferno pistols gets to make two melta attacks in a shooting phase. As such, outside of the Canoness Command Squad, Seraphim are the only unit in our army capable of making more than two melta shots per five models.

Are the melta pistols still AP2?

Some of us arent interested in running an army that only has, basically, a playtest list. Not willing to invest any more models into that.

Its important to understand that all the new cool stuff that will be available in the new codex, when it comes out, is not in the white dwarf dex.

If you don't like something about the white dwarf dex, feel some points should be tweeked or just have some suggestions to make the sisters better then write your idea's or concerns in a well drafted letter and send it to Robin Cruddace. You will not only probably get a reply, but maybe you might help change the future hard back codex for the better.

Or you can like, you know, bitch.

Plastic sisters are coming before next summer.

Melissia wrote:Are the melta pistols still AP2?

Probably. I never understood the point of the melta pistols to be frank. I'd rather just use the rollin'-600-dice-bahaha-burn-baby-burn flamers for only 5 points and leave the tank killing to my exorcists and dominions or whatever.

Melissia wrote:Are the melta pistols still AP2?

Nope, they've been fixed to AP1.

Edit:

JB_Man wrote:Probably. I never understood the point of the melta pistols to be frank. I'd rather just use the rollin'-600-dice-bahaha-burn-baby-burn flamers for only 5 points and leave the tank killing to my exorcists and dominions or whatever.

The Hand Flamers are S3 AP6, and you're a factor of four out on the cost of upgrading a Seraphim to wield them. The Inferno Pistols cost half as much again. Statistically, the Hand Flamers are better against GEQ and Orks (if their Act of Faith triggers, which it should given the Seraphim special rules), and the Inferno Pistols are better against MEQ.

Tabitha wrote:Or you can like, you know, bitch.

Or you can stop insulting people for complaining about something that is horrible?

For my part, I've already done the ideas thing.

Melissia wrote:

Kreedos wrote:I like how you think my post was about you, like I trying to quote you or something.

I wasn't. You're still making crap up.

Kreedos wrote:It sucks yes, however marines don't have Exorcists.

Marines have better vehicles than Exorcists.

Kreedos wrote:Also their scouts suck ours rock the boat with 4x special, have a BS 4 and 3+ save.

And Sternguard are better still, so are terminators-- what's your point? SM Scouts and SoB Dominions don't hold the same purpose, trying to force Scouts to do the same job Dominions do is proof that you don't understand how to play C:SM.

Kreedos wrote:Basically marines don't have access to anything really like the two or three units that ultimately win Sisters games.

Yes they do, and more, and BETTER.

Kreedos wrote:Sisters have all of the tools they need to do their job, and they'll still excel at what they do best, melta and flamer.

And Marines can do it better. So can Guard

Maybe you're right, but the bottom line is that none of the Space Marine miniatures have boobs, and only a handful of Guard minis have boobs, whereas the vast majority of a Sisters army will have boobs. ^_^ That ALONE makes them better than Space Marines and Guard combined!

: P

Melissia wrote:

Tabitha wrote:Or you can like, you know, bitch.

Or you can stop insulting people for complaining about something that is horrible?

For my part, I've already done the ideas thing.

Robin Cruddace
Willow Road
Lenton
Nottingham
NG7 2WS

Send him a letter with your idea's then. You cant expect them to sift through a bunch of forums trying to find what people think would make their codex better.
But you could write him a letter with your idea's. Maybe include your e-mail. If its a well thought out message and not a rant, you might be surprised at the response. Sure you might get told "Nope." but it will be polite.

Mythal wrote:
The Hand Flamers are S3 AP6, and you're a factor of four out on the cost of upgrading a Seraphim to wield them. The Inferno Pistols cost half as much again. Statistically, the Hand Flamers are better against GEQ and Orks (if their Act of Faith triggers, which it should given the Seraphim special rules), and the Inferno Pistols are better against MEQ.

My bad, I was going by the old flamer cost, have they increased? And I missed the nerf to the strength and ap...that kind of blows. I'm still not convinced that I want to pay for the inferno pistols, but I'm moving in that direction for at least 1 squad...

JB_Man wrote:My bad, I was going by the old flamer cost, have they increased? And I missed the nerf to the strength and ap...that kind of blows. I'm still not convinced that I want to pay for the inferno pistols, but I'm moving in that direction for at least 1 squad...

I admit, I was surprised at the Hand Flamer price tag (I was less surprised at the Inferno Pistols). You could always go with Hand Flamers for two Seraphim squads, then load out on Meltas in a Dominion squad for your third FA slot. The Meltas will generally benefit more from the Dominion's AoF (twin-linking) than the Seraphim's (rerolling wounds).

Mythal wrote:

JB_Man wrote:My bad, I was going by the old flamer cost, have they increased? And I missed the nerf to the strength and ap...that kind of blows. I'm still not convinced that I want to pay for the inferno pistols, but I'm moving in that direction for at least 1 squad...

I admit, I was surprised at the Hand Flamer price tag (I was less surprised at the Inferno Pistols). You could always go with Hand Flamers for two Seraphim squads, then load out on Meltas in a Dominion squad for your third FA slot. The Meltas will generally benefit more from the Dominion's AoF (twin-linking) than the Seraphim's (rerolling wounds).

Yeah, I think you're right, there. I'll probably just be taking the 5 man squad given that I need to find something to use my Immolators for...

I do love the thought of 30 Seraphim screaming around the board, though.

Indeed. It's a pity they were nerfed so hard. Yeah, they're cheap now, but they're also far, far worse than before, even with the two shots from the bolt pistols.

Tabitha wrote:Send him a letter with your idea's then. You cant expect them to sift through a bunch of forums trying to find what people think would make their codex better.

In case you weren't paying attention, I just said I've already done that.

Kreedos wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
The sexualized nature (or degree of) of SOB models is something that is lobg debated and discussed. Some people want half naked D-cupped SOB. Those are the types that I always was happy didn't take up the army tbh...

Those types of people, now most likely play TAU, the anime army.

You mistyped 'Eldar' there.

If Tau were as anime-based as people claim, the army would be filled with scantily clad, skinny ladies with huge swords or guns.

JB_Man wrote:

Mythal wrote:

JB_Man wrote:

I do love the thought of 30 Seraphim screaming around the board, though.

Amen to that my brother! 15 points each... I swear the writer chap was smoking crack when he came up with the points values... 12 points for a basic sister vs 15 for a seraphim. I'm not complaining

Backfire wrote:

Kreedos wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
The sexualized nature (or degree of) of SOB models is something that is lobg debated and discussed. Some people want half naked D-cupped SOB. Those are the types that I always was happy didn't take up the army tbh...

Those types of people, now most likely play TAU, the anime army.

You mistyped 'Eldar' there.

If Tau were as anime-based as people claim, the army would be filled with scantily clad, skinny ladies with huge swords or guns.

Don't forget taht everyone would be from a middle/high school!

Kreedos wrote:It sucks yes, however marines don't have Exorcists. Also their scouts suck ours rock the boat with 4x special, have a BS 4 and 3+ save.

Basically marines don't have access to anything really like the two or three units that ultimately win Sisters games.

Sisters have all of the tools they need to do their job, and they'll still excel at what they do best, melta and flamer.

Thank you for also ignoring my point. But:

A las cannon predator is very much like an excorcist, but more reliable.
A multimelta equipped land speeder squad is (according to your list earlier) cheaper than 5 dominions in a melta-immolator.
The Stern Guard vets, while pricey, can pack 2 meltas and get special bolter ammo to boot.
And an Honor Guard (IIRC) can pack in melta guns, power weapons or even power fists.

But again not my point. My point was that there aren't a bunch of sisters players sitting around refusing to even try the new dex.

carmachu wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:Try out a game with them before you shelf them guys, trust me on this.

Some of us arent interested in running an army that only has, basically, a playtest list. Not willing to invest any more models into that.

OK, way to prove me wrong there... Is my game shop open yet?

One amusing thing I only now realised. The only infantry model capable of inflicting instant death in assault on a T4 enemy in the new Codex is the Mistress of Repentance, courtesy of the new Wargear entry for the Neural Whip.