Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And, I am the first guy to say that COMON needs some european support. Either a european office, or a partner.

The way in which they are performing is offputting, to be sure.

They did all of this, while pushing other projects, that even though they seem to have been what people wanted, they are kind of in my point of view- neglecting the followthrough that one would expect for the efforts that were involved.

Is this something that we can expect from CMON with future projects?

Studio McVey is fine for info- COMON- not so much. Will they do the same with the sodapop KS, or there future ops?

Has me wondering, thats for sure.

And to top it off- COMON has plenty of non-publicly funded projects in the pipe? My question- are they not equipped to handle this sort of followup, or is it just neglect?

TheHammer wrote:At least this isn't someone from Australia complaining, because boy do those guys get into every GW thread ever to complain.

Damn, and here i thought it was the perfect time to complain about GW!

Personally I am fine with it. I put down money and got a bunch of extras and an expectation that it would be somewhere around Sept.

Now some people got their early? Does that affect my expectations of getting around Sept? Nup. Still not Sept according to my calendar so I havent lost out there.

Am I upset that they got sent to their American Customers earlier than me rather than some prorata or "first in first served" system? Nope. I understand it is usually a lot easier to ship things domestically than to 50 bajillion different countries. Plus it would be a total head-screw to try to make those prorata/fifs systems work.

Am I pissed that Gencon peeps can get Abomination packs? Not really? Well no more than my general level of pissiness over not being able to attend cool cons due to distance and cost.

Well, I'm going to see how this turns out. If the outcome is unfavourable, then CMON won't be getting any more cash from me, either through their own store or KS.

Vain wrote:

Personally I am fine with it. I put down money and got a bunch of extras and an expectation that it would be somewhere around Sept.

Now some people got their early? Does that affect my expectations of getting around Sept? Nup. Still not Sept according to my calendar so I havent lost out there.

Am I upset that they got sent to their American Customers earlier than me rather than some prorata or "first in first served" system? Nope. I understand it is usually a lot easier to ship things domestically than to 50 bajillion different countries. Plus it would be a total head-screw to try to make those prorata/fifs systems work.

Am I pissed that Gencon peeps can get Abomination packs? Not really? Well no more than my general level of pissiness over not being able to attend cool cons due to distance and cost.

I just wanted to quote someone on the matter who seems to be handling it like a reasonable adult.

What's unreasonable about expecting equal treatment?

Would you be as chipper if the shoe was on the other foot?

Your attitude smacks of "I'm alright Jack" so what's your problem.

I'm sure there'd be plenty of sabre rattling and chest beating if say, the country shipping these sets was France and that the Frogs would get their boxes ahead of everybody else, not to mention a pile of them going on pre-sale at say, Spiel Essen.

notprop wrote:What's unreasonable about expecting equal treatment?

I got my product earlier than promised. You will get your product earlier than promised That is equal treatment.

They shipped domestic product first, earlier than expected.
They are shipping over seas product, earlier than expected.
They are planning on selling a limited amount of product at the largest trade show of the year.

People are then complaining that they aren't getting product internationally as quickly as those domestically are, even though they are still going to get their product earlier than promised, because other people got their product before them.

Being slightly disappointed, and envious perhaps, is understandable. Crying about it online and complaining to the company about not getting product extra, extra early when you live half way around the world from them, and you are still going to get it early, is not reasonable.

notprop wrote: Would you be as chipper if the shoe was on the other foot?

I was envious when I posted my excited post about getting a confirmation email , and other people already had their product., but I was not upset, and I didn't complain about it. I had no false sense of entitlement, or unrealistic expectations about shipping times.

Your attitude smacks of "I'm alright Jack" so what's your problem.

I'm unfamiliar with the phrase "I'm alright Jack", but my issue is I get annoyed with people being impatient, over reacting, acting childish, etc.. because they didn't get their shiny new toy first.

The vast majority of international backers are handling the situation very well. Humorous tinged complaining about it is even amusing. People are free to share their opinion on the matter, just as I am free to share my opinion on the matter when I think they are over reacting and being childish about it.

We are all adults who here play toy soldiers, part of our childhood we refuse to give up, some of us just acting more childish than others.

BrookM wrote:I'm sure there'd be plenty of sabre rattling and chest beating if say, the country shipping these sets was France and that the Frogs would get their boxes ahead of everybody else, not to mention a pile of them going on pre-sale at say, Spiel Essen.

You are undoubtedly correct, and my thoughts on the matter would remain unchanged.

Are you fething kidding me?

You have highlighted the discrepancy in the first five sentences of your post and yet have failed to understand what you have typed. Inequality of treatment between domestic and foreign customers.

Legitimate discussion about the way CMoN is condction this KS is dismissed as childish buy someone who on his last post manages to condescend, name calling and finally a high degree of hypocrisy levelled. I love the irony.

Something else that's ironic is that a marketing shill is now having the opposite effect for his clients business with his over defensive antics and rudeness.

I'm alright jack refers to someone that has what he wants and damn the others - congrats you seem to be a shining example of that.

Why do you care about equal treatment? All I care about is that I get what I ordered in the timeframe given. I couldn't really care when other people get their board games, although I'd rather they got them in a timely manner.

Or are you suggesting that CMON sit on copies of Zombicide until they have enough on hand to fulfill orders and then dispatch them all simultaneously?

I guess next time they should just sit on their product for a couple of months, letting it sit in their warehouse, and then shipping it all out at once on the advertised date. Making sure that nobody gets their product any earlier than anybody else. Because what is the point of getting it early if somebody else is getting it even earlier.

Here's the part I just can't wrap my head around.
Can someone who FEELS THIS WAY please respond in a non-condescending and non-argumentative manner?

It seems to me that some people who are considered "international" (by the shipping options) are angry because people in the US are getting their copies before the "international" customers and they feel slighted or possibly even ripped off by this. Is this correct?
If that's the case, then my question is, "Why?" Why do you feel that you're being treated unfairly? Provided that your product(s) arrive in the time frame you were promised, how are you slighted by not receiving your item(s) sooner?

Eric

I think what is bothersome is that the US customers get theirs now and the ROW customers need to wait until after Gen-con for their orders to be processed and shipped.

yeah,
My issue is that kickstarters all chipped in to fund the product and get it off the ground.

We put £700000 in CMONs bank so they could make the game, we're filling their warehouse with stock.
We would all get a copy, with extras for being pioniers.
We sat on the interwebs publicizing their greatness, encouraging others to join in this is amazing adventure!
We were told expect shipping by September.
We put our money in CMONS bank and were patting each other on the back with a job well done.

We get a email saying we are getting the product early, the warehouse is full look at all these boxes! shipping will happen in August. YaY!
We're amazing!


Next we are told that only US kickstarters can expect early shipping ... wtf!
When did we start having subgroups with preferential treatment? Why can't we all have the same treatment? We all paid the same amount of money...

Next they say they are gonna sell the game to non kickstarters at gencon' ... wtf!
We helped you fund this game and your selling it to others before you've provided copies to your loyal pioners, we who funded your business and put that stock in your warehouse? not cool.


Next they say "We're gonna give away copies of the kickstarter only extras"! WTF your fething kidding me!

One week ago I was a happy camper, a Geek sitting gleefully waiting on his prepaid copy of a game.
I thought I would be among the first to play this great new game that I helped make happen.
Now we get to watch as forums fill with those who have gotten the game early play and discuss rules and show off the miniatures.
Now I can see I wasn't a pioneer, just a cash cow...

Now I feel like someone at CMON is pissing all over my cornflakes.

Panic...

Indeed if you have time to ship x copies for a product that has been supported internationally by people who have all shown equal willing.

You then sort out one section of that who group on the basis of lacale rather than say first come, first served or proportional forfillment so that every region has been at least partially served.

The inequality (albeit minor) is clear. A better question is why do you have a problem wih people seeking to get their grubby mits on a game they have paid for?

I'm less bothered by Gencon as I appreciate it's a big deal for further advancement of the product brand which can only be a good thing.

For a US company, it is simple for them to ship the US copies early, then go to GenCon, then deal with international shipping.

I don't think they had the thought of "HAHA Let's screw over international costumers!"

They were going to bring in extra copies for GenCon no matter what most likely. And as for the extras pack, its only a few copies getting out to non kickstarters, as a way to create buzz.

Most likely they got a huge shipment in, decided to do as much shipping as they could, realized how much time it takes to do international, then had to pack up and go to gencon. Even for simple stuff like a board game, it still takes a long time to do large scale customs forms. You will still get your game delivered by your delivery date!

I think after they ask for payment for international shipping, and then tell us one thing, they should keep their word.

If CMON has any other kickstarters planned, this will colour my perception of how they deliver.

It really feels like they saw gencon, and decided that they could sell our copies there and simply make us wait.

Not good form.

What was said over the Abomination extras for Zombicide ?

I know during the SW campaign it was clearly states the limited edition stuff was for the KS AND any surplus manufactured would be sold at conventions, so we KNEW this would happen (which was cool)

Was the abomination stuff treated in the same way, or was it a complete surprise (inaddition to the early gencon sales)

Geez from the crowd here it sounds like there is a conspiracy that CMoN is planning for their international customers to get nothing or something.

BrookM wrote:I think what is bothersome is that the US customers get theirs now and the ROW customers need to wait until after Gen-con for their orders to be processed and shipped.

I'm a US customer and don't have mine and will have to wait until after GenCon.

Just sayin'.

~Eric

Edit:
Also we didn't pre-order anything. Bupkis. Nada. We donated money to fund the development/production of the game. In return they said they would provide us with product on a certain time schedule. A time schedule that they are still going to be early on, by the way.

I think that the feeling that you pre-ordered something is what is causing the butthurt to a certain extent.

Edit 2:

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:What was said over the Abomination extras for Zombicide ?

I know during the SW campaign it was clearly states the limited edition stuff was for the KS AND any surplus manufactured would be sold at conventions, so we KNEW this would happen (which was cool)

Was the abomination stuff treated in the same way, or was it a complete surprise (inaddition to the early gencon sales)

Same deal as Sedition Wars. They said that the extras would be sold at conventions and such as well.

Hmm.... Look at all them copies that aren’t being shipped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sparkywtf wrote:I don't think they had the thought of "HAHA Let's screw over international costumers!"

Of course they didn’t. That would imply malice, and I don’t see CMON as malicious. Greedy perhaps, in this specific instance. But not malicious. However these are essentially pre-orders, and they stopped filling them (except for one region) and then just went and started selling copies at a convention. Now I don’t begrudge them for wanting to have copies on the floor for Gen-Con – missing an opportunity like that would be ludicrous – but it’s the fact that they didn’t start shipping orders, they just started shipping US orders.

Surely there is a method of determining who pledged first, as I’d definitely take a ‘first come/first serve’ attitude towards this (meaning I’d get mine towards the end, as I pledged with 2 days to go). Far better than simply ignoring all your international customers (maliciously or not) after taking their money and selling copies on the floor.

In other news, there is a Zombicide app?!? Did I somehow miss that part?

whalemusic360 wrote:In other news, there is a Zombicide app?!? Did I somehow miss that part?

Just as important: iPhone only or is there an Android version?

RogueRegault wrote:

whalemusic360 wrote:In other news, there is a Zombicide app?!? Did I somehow miss that part?

Just as important: iPhone only or is there an Android version?

Says both on the banner.

I get why overseas supporters are mad, every gamer wants his product as quickly as possible.

I'm not happy that privateer press has books avilable at gencon that I won't be able to get for another month, or that people have bought them at gencon are already selling them on ebay for many times what they cost. It sucks not to be able to get to a cool convention and get things ahead of general release. I also get annoyed when forge world has items available at UK based games days for months before I can get one in the US. So I'm right there with you.


But you have to look at the logistics involved. Overseas shipping is expensive and always slower than the stuff going out domestically. Even if they shipped out the international packages the very same day as the US ones they'd be 2-3 weeks behind (assuming they clear customs right away) There's simply no way around that, packages travelling 4,000+ miles take time.

From what they stated in their updates (which are emailed ot all the supporters) is that the T-shirt were delayed hence why they are holding off on shipping the international packages. They had one of two options, ship the games right away or ship the games and shirts seperately.

The only practical route is to ship everything together due to costs.

Reason being it that it runs anywhere from $40-$70 to mail an international package of the size and weight of the game boxes they can piggy back the t shirts along with that box for no price increase. However if they are mailed sperately T-Shirt boxes are going to run aproximately $25-$30 (Even though they are a lot smaller and lighter). Assuming that roughly half of the supporters are outside the US that's a good 2,600 packages that's an additional cost of $65,000 to $75,000. That's no small chunk of change. Heck they could probably fund another entire game release just on that price differance. So I see plenty of logic to that decision and it has nothing to do with trying to stick it to the inetrnational supporters.

I don't see any shirts being show as on sale at gencon, do you?

It's more than likely that the T-shirts will still arive in time to make their original deadline of shipping in sept.

I'd be annoyed if my copy were shipping later than others, but if it still arrived by when it was orginally estimated I'd be ok with that. (maybe not overjoyed though)

They tried to get stuff out to as much of the supporter base as possible and I admire that they managed it more than a month before I was expecting to see them. I think if the cost wasn';t so high the inetrnational ones would be well on their way, but at that volume it's a huge chunk of their opperating budget.

paulson games wrote:But you have to look at the logistics involved. Overseas shipping is expensive and always slower than the stuff going out domestically. Even if they shipped out the international packages the very same day as the US ones they'd be 2-3 weeks behind (assuming they clear customs right away) There's imply no way around that, packages travelling 8,000 miles take time.

1. It can be expensive. But we paid for that, remember?
2. We know it's slower. That's not the point. They point is they haven't sent it yet.

None of us are naive enough to think that our boxes should've been on our doorsteps right away, but it'd've been nice if they'd've been shipped before they started selling copies elsewhere.

You donated, you didn't purchase anything.

Yes there was extra cost for international supporters but in most cases the extra $25 doesn't absorb the entire shipping cost for one package let alone two. Even with the increased cost to help offset shipping they are likely taking a small loss.

I do the same thing frequently when I get large international orders from my store. Since I charge a flat rate for shipping I'm willing to trade a few dollars off the total because i know it makes the customers in europe happy. I still make a worthwile margin as it's a larger volume order but in a straight up measure I'd make a bit more if it went to a US customer. I'd rather have business at a slightly reduced profit than not have their business. (and again it helps keeps them happy)

I totally side with the people aren't happy because their boxes haven't mailed, I've been there too. But the sheer costs of the logistics are against that. It sucks that the snag with the t-shirts has everything gummed up.

My playgroup was irritated at the kickstarter exclusives because they can't get the game until general release and none of them could make gencon, no matter how you try you simply can't make everyone happy.

That's fair enough PG but buy your calculation ($25-30 int. shipping) which we paid $25 for on top of the amount already included for, they are making additional margin on international customers but giving a poorer service for it.

This may or may not be entirely accurate but it doesn't look great as well.

yeah,
Its been mentioned that CMON tried to fufill all US backers before Gencon in an attempt to preempt the backlash from US backers who would see red when they saw the game on sale at Gencon... and a few US customers are incensed that for no reason (except greed) that they have been left off the first wave.

Remember that CMON didn't expect to have stock in time for Gencon, they expected shipping Sept!?
they had probabily booked a booth and planned to go and do demos, and get more preorders (/take money in return for the promise of a gift... game.)
This is a last minute grab for more cash and it's being done instead of doing the right thing; Sending out the games to people who helped their buisness with a feth load of cash up front!
I never dropped $160 on a board game before.. after this I might not ever do it again.

The t-shirt thing. The US orders are recieving their t-shirt in the second package in 2013.
It wont cost extra to ship the Tshirt within the first or second package.

Explain to me again why this can not happen with the international orders too?

In fact the ideal thing to do would have been mail the international orders first knowing that there is a 2-3 week delay.
Then in 2 weeks time mail the US orders,and via the magic of time travel everyone gets their pre paid donation gift game at around about the same time.
Everyones happy... or could have been...

Panic...

paulson games wrote:You donated, you didn't purchase anything.

Rubbish. I know that Kickstarter uses this legal fiction to justify standing aside from any disputes, but neither CMoN nor the customer actually believe that is true. It's the same sort of nonsense as pretending the game isn't liable for customs duties because it's a "gift" being sent to you in return for your "donation" to CMoN.

notprop wrote:That's fair enough PG but buy your calculation ($25-30 int. shipping) which we paid $25 for on top of the amount already included for, they are making additional margin on international customers but giving a poorer service for it.

The abomination level box weights 9.4 lbs, rounding that up to 10lbs it's shipped internationally costs $63 via USPS shipped to the UK. (Figure 11lbs total for shirts being included which is $66) So if they ship together it costs them roughly $3 more.

Now if I try and send that same shirt in a seperate box, assuming it's 1lb which costs $39.

So that means they can shipped it combined for $66 vs $102 if they ship two packages seperately. The differance of $36 x 2,600 supporters that works out to $93,600 they'd save by mailing out everything in one box.


Even with the extra $25 that international supports have to toss in it doesn't even cover half the cost to ship the package. Meanwhile it costs only $26 to mail it across the US by USPS. Factoring in the extra charge they are basically losing $12 per order that goes outside the US. (not to mention spending a boatload of time doing customs forms)

Now these prices may not be 100% accurate as they were calculated by USPS pricing, not sure if they are shippingthem that way or with Fedex or UPS, but typically their rates are all fairly comperable. I'm only providing these as a very rough ballpark to show that it's not exactly small numbers were talking about them saving.

They aren't making extra money off the backs of international sales by any means, they are actually absorbing a loss to help keep the prices down for the people abroad.


(They will also still need to send out the second and 3rd waves of promo figures which while not as heavy a the main set will require more postage, 2-3 waves of internatiopnal packages is already quite expensive.)



It's worth noting that in CMON's update emails they stated that there's still 500 US people who's stuff won't ship until after gen con so there's plenty of US people who haven't had their stuff ship out yet either. While I have no clue what the US vs International break down of backers is, 500 people could be upwards to 1/3rd the US backers who are waiting as well.


I'm not trying to pick a fight with you guys, just pointing out that there's a lot of numbers going on behind the scene that people may not even be considering.


It would have been nice if everyone could get their games at the same time, but they are not anything near the scale of GW and a gobal release is next t impossible when you're not a giant company especially when it's dropped almost in the same week and gencon which is the busiest week of the industry here in the US. It basically shuts down every gaming business for the better part of the month which is why every company is frantic trying to deal with Aug releases.

.