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Sephyr wrote:

But yeah, two kinds of Oblits is the answer to a question no one was asking. Was anyone ever that keen on charging them forward? As if CSM heavy support wasn't crowded enough. The skeptic in me fears a money-grubbing finecast scheme here. "Sure, zerkers got a nerf and chaos termis are meh, but you can still load your land raider with the new assault oblits and beat faces in! Only $41 for a box of two!"

Nothing ever said they were both heavy support choices. The only reason I could see GW make a split is to do something much like what happened when SM veterans became vanguard and sternguard... two more specialized units filling more distinctive roles in different FOC slots.

Sephyr wrote:
But yeah, two kinds of Oblits is the answer to a question no one was asking. Was anyone ever that keen on charging them forward? As if CSM heavy support wasn't crowded enough. The skeptic in me fears a money-grubbing finecast scheme here. "Sure, zerkers got a nerf and chaos termis are meh, but you can still load your land raider with the new assault oblits and beat faces in! Only $41 for a box of two!"

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they're making one plastic kit that can make both Obliterators and the close combat variant, since GW loves combo kits these days. Shelf space is at a premium.

warpcrafter wrote:No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

Dear GW,

I know that in the past I've asked for cult terminators and legion rules and maybe even Thousand Sons sorcerors with better psychic powers than your run-of-the-mill punk librarian or rune priest. But upon further reflection I've changed my mind. Instead of all that stuff I wanted before could you please split obliterators into 2 different units and only let me use half their weapon morphs in each unit? That'd be rad.

Thanks,
Abadabadoobaddon

I hope the cult troops get some small bonus for being selected in the particular gods favored number. Else (apart fro "fluff") why wouldn't you always got for max unit number.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

Dear GW,

I know that in the past I've asked for cult terminators and legion rules and maybe even Thousand Sons sorcerors with better psychic powers than your run-of-the-mill punk librarian or rune priest. But upon further reflection I've changed my mind. Instead of all that stuff I wanted before could you please split obliterators into 2 different units and only let me use half their weapon morphs in each unit? That'd be rad.

Thanks,
Abadabadoobaddon

See, Abadabatherestofyourname, this is where you're going wrong. It is not for you, the consumer, to demand a better product so that GW can best its industry rivals in a competitive marketplace and thereby secure your freely spent money. That would be some kind of crazy, mixed-up bizarro world where companies succeed based upon how effectively they fulfill the demands of their customers/clients, and competitive pressures from similar companies help push all companies to out-do their competitors in serving their customers' needs, and moreover, do so in a fashion produces goods and services cheaper and/or of higher quality. I mean, what the heck kind of world would THAT be like?

No, Free Market Capitalism is all about private or publicly held companies doing whatever satisfies their every fleeting, quixotic whim, and consumers are simply there to underwrite such behavior with their hard-earned money, without questioning the companies to whom they are exchanging their money for goods without daring to even imagine that companies would, or even should stop to consider customers' desires and preferences.

I mean, it's not like you're their boss or something! They're GAME DESIGNERS. If they want to make up new units to fill non-existant needs, that's their right, and you are obliged to continue paying them to fulfill their OWN needs. Haven't you ever taken a basic economics class?

aka_mythos wrote: Nothing ever said they were both heavy support choices. The only reason I could see GW make a split is to do something much like what happened when SM veterans became vanguard and sternguard... two more specialized units filling more distinctive roles in different FOC slots.

They are definitely not going to be troops, and being lumbering termi-armored monsters, it's probably Heavy Support or Elites.

Elites will be even more crowded than Heavy Support now that cult troops are elites until unlocked by the warlord. So it's 3 slots for terminators, Possessed, Chosen, CC oblits, cult troops.

I wonder if they'll be able to morph storm shields, though. Though I think I know the answer to that one.

I just have to say that some books are a lot more crowded than ours. Want to check out a book with a billion options for HS. Guard. They have so many tank variants that its stupid. I think chaos needs a few more options in every slot except the HQ slot, and no slot needs it more than fast attack. Right now fast attack slots for Chaos suck.

catharsix wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

Dear GW,

I know that in the past I've asked for cult terminators and legion rules and maybe even Thousand Sons sorcerors with better psychic powers than your run-of-the-mill punk librarian or rune priest. But upon further reflection I've changed my mind. Instead of all that stuff I wanted before could you please split obliterators into 2 different units and only let me use half their weapon morphs in each unit? That'd be rad.

Thanks,
Abadabadoobaddon

See, Abadabatherestofyourname, this is where you're going wrong. It is not for you, the consumer, to demand a better product so that GW can best its industry rivals in a competitive marketplace and thereby secure your freely spent money. That would be some kind of crazy, mixed-up bizarro world where companies succeed based upon how effectively they fulfill the demands of their customers/clients, and competitive pressures from similar companies help push all companies to out-do their competitors in serving their customers' needs, and moreover, do so in a fashion produces goods and services cheaper and/or of higher quality. I mean, what the heck kind of world would THAT be like?

No, Free Market Capitalism is all about private or publicly held companies doing whatever satisfies their every fleeting, quixotic whim, and consumers are simply there to underwrite such behavior with their hard-earned money, without questioning the companies to whom they are exchanging their money for goods without daring to even imagine that companies would, or even should stop to consider customers' desires and preferences.

I mean, it's not like you're their boss or something! They're GAME DESIGNERS. If they want to make up new units to fill non-existant needs, that's their right, and you are obliged to continue paying them to fulfill their OWN needs. Haven't you ever taken a basic economics class?

Excuse me, but you buy the crap therefore they don't need to listen to your complaints. If you hate what they do, don't buy it. That is the ONLY way they will listen. Till the complaints outweigh the sales, this is how it will work.
As to the no cult termies, fine, I dealt with it for years, I'll deal with it for more. I get Zombie army lead by Typhus. I could careless about other options at this point.

catharsix wrote:

No, Free Market Capitalism is all about private or publicly held companies doing whatever satisfies their every fleeting, quixotic whim, and consumers are simply there to underwrite such behavior with their hard-earned money, without questioning the companies to whom they are exchanging their money for goods without daring to even imagine that companies would, or even should stop to consider customers' desires and preferences.

You work for a UK utilities company, don't you?

Sephyr wrote:

aka_mythos wrote: Nothing ever said they were both heavy support choices. The only reason I could see GW make a split is to do something much like what happened when SM veterans became vanguard and sternguard... two more specialized units filling more distinctive roles in different FOC slots.

They are definitely not going to be troops, and being lumbering termi-armored monsters, it's probably Heavy Support or Elites.

Elites will be even more crowded than Heavy Support now that cult troops are elites until unlocked by the warlord. So it's 3 slots for terminators, Possessed, Chosen, CC oblits, cult troops.

I wonder if they'll be able to morph storm shields, though. Though I think I know the answer to that one.

I read somewhere that they'd be jump. So hopefully they'll be fast attack.

Also, it'd be cool if they could morph 2 storm shields, one in each hand. Rerollable 3++ save hooooo. You know, for like, crossing the battlefield trying to get into combat. or tarpitting.

For those CC obliterators, im guessing something like "warp jumpers", Regular obliterators are meant to "come from the warp" and make deals with warlords while big combats are ocurring. Maybe CC oblis will be like that, and will wear some "short teleport" thing.

The game alredy have 2 units who own something like that, booth sworn enemies to anything in the warp. It is not so ilogicall to think that the guys who actually stay in the warp, and learn great secrets from it, can do the same...

75hastings69 on Warseer wrote:
Daemons wave is indeed next, CSM is the next Codex (full release) maybe I should have made that clearer in my earlier post. CSM also get some kind of mechanical Centauroid weapon platform/unit, I'll try and recall all the CSM.
ive made a list of what models the CSM players can expext, note that i dont know if these will all come at once or in waves, some of these (or click fit varients of them) are in the starter box.

Note also that ill not be adding rules or updating this thread in anyway so that will be up to you guys.

I'm expecting the codex to hit late October or early November (depending on if the rumour that the wfb WoC army book isn't out till feb 2013 is true or not - I'm still expecting that book in October)

Upcoming models:-

Raptors (plastic 2 types)
Dread looks like an angry obliterater on roids!
Obliterators look good but not as good as the "mauler" CC version
Dragon flyer is ok
Two deamonic Centauroid cannon things a bit iffy
Warp smith
Apostles
Cultists
Some odd walker thing
New csm marines (could be recut with added bits? Either way I didn't recognise them as current ones - but then again my 40k fu is weak!)
Chosen very nice too


My understanding is the Obliterators are a new plastic kit that includes the CC mauler variant options. I would "imagine" that these maulers are designed to compete in just that kind of role.

AFAIK the current plastic termie lord kit remains.


I refuse to comment about finecrast - (there are obviously characters too, and they're I'm finecast! - iirc new Kharn the betrayer is one of them)

via Erazmus_M_Wattle wrote:
I can back Hastings up somewhat here. My moles in GW reported that there was a new close combat unit. Like cc obliterators. Both builds looked lovely. I've been informed that they are going to be two to a box. This reminds me if an older rumour that they'd go up to a squad size of six. It seems odd for two to a box with the current size of three.

The dark apostle is very nice.

As for the dread I've heard nothing.


Perhaps the roided up dread might be a model to represent a possessed dread. I can't imagine they'd invalidate regular dreads. Let's not forget Hastings stated he was only talking about models. No need to panic that our expensive forge-world dreads have been invalidated. I expect the more basic dreads with still be viable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Logan on Faeit212 wrote:
The CSm codex is the first half of Sept. The starter set is late Sept. No DA this year.

But dont say the starter set is "locked" for september. They could move it to October easily.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TastyTaste on Blood of Kittens wrote:
So does Soul Blaze replace the AP3 on 1k sons bolters, or is it in addition to it? And since rapid fire weapons can be fired on the move now, do they still have SnP?

[Are just like before, but with Soulfire]
They are just like
1) do Chaos bikes get a reasonable price reduction, similar to C:SM ones?
[No Idea]
2) do Havoc weapons options get cheaper?
[Yes almost as cheap as Long Fangs]
3) do Terminators come standard with Power Axes in their new cost?
[I think you still get to pick Sword or Axe your choice]
4) are there any FOC shenanigans like moving Terminators, Bikes or Raptors to troops?
[Nope just cult troops]
Do the Thousand Sons get any new options (say, like Heavy Bolters?)?
[None that I know of]
Even with all those upgrades and tables, the codex somehow sounds ”down to earth” like the current DA codex. Does it feel the same? Like a careful approach to a new edition of rules?
[Seems careful, I would say they are just copying there approach they used with Fantasy]
- How do Icons and Marks work? Are Icons still bound to one model and lost whet it dies?
[No idea]
- Can Vehicles and special units (Obliteratiors, Dragon, etc.) be marked?
[Some can some cannot]
- Which weapons of Plaguemarines are poisoned? CC weapons, Shooty weapons or both?
[No idea]
- Do marked Sorcerers or marked Daemonprinces also make cult units a troop choice?
[Princes no, Sorcerers Yes]

thank you mr pretre!! Looks like a iron warriors force in my near future.

Looks like no more running two Daemon Princes if I want to field cult as troops...

Doesn't really make sense fluff-wise, but it's a valid way of making Lords more viable (compared to Princes, not Sorcerers) game-wise. For some armies...

It looks like Thousand Sons are going to continue to be on the bottom of the pile as far as the cult troops go.

Nobody can stop the Soul Blaze.

really looking forward to the new Warsmith model. i am still using the old metal one, it's one of my fave models.

Praxiss wrote:really looking forward to the new Warsmith model. i am still using the old metal one, it's one of my fave models.

It will be FC though

Logan on Faeit212 wrote:

The CSm codex is the first half of Sept. The starter set is late Sept

Yeah right.

So, just catching up on rumours out of curiousity.

Raptors getting Daemon.

Wait.

They're gaining Fear and a 5+ invulnerable save? And not likely to go up in points too much? Suddenly, Raptors seem worthwhile!

DarkStarSabre wrote:So, just catching up on rumours out of curiousity.

Raptors getting Daemon.

Wait.

They're gaining Fear and a 5+ invulnerable save? And not likely to go up in points too much? Suddenly, Raptors seem worthwhile!

Can't believe I missed this. I wonder if this will apply to both Raptors or the one that's rumored to be equipped with lightning claws.

Enigwolf wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:So, just catching up on rumours out of curiousity.

Raptors getting Daemon.

Wait.

They're gaining Fear and a 5+ invulnerable save? And not likely to go up in points too much? Suddenly, Raptors seem worthwhile!

Can't believe I missed this. I wonder if this will apply to both Raptors or the one that's rumored to be equipped with lightning claws.

It seems unlikely that applies to both raptors. There is no reason to give that USR to normal CSM with jetpacks. I suppose it is just to possessed raptors (or wathever they are named).

Logan from Faeit212 wrote:Also Kharn is supposedly no longer "immune" to pyschic powers rather his deny the witch is a 2+


Ahriman I have heard Mastery Level 4. 3 wounds. Possible 3+ or 4+ DtW. Slightly Cheaper. But not sure. Could be more.
he might have an INV save vs shooting only


Expect a few months after release. Upgrade sprues will come. Shoulder pads and helmets. Maybe boltguns. POSSIBLY finecast though...


The original concept was to make very specific legion rules but the problem was


1. They wouldnt be able to fit it in one codex
2. Multiple codices is hard to sustain unless there is much effort.


So there was a compromise. One codex. No heavy legion rules or advantages. But if you waited to play a certain legion they'd give you the tools to make it. With marks or a few units. So cult terminators might have once been real.

Dez on Faeit 212 wrote:
Warlords Cometh


If you are currently complaining about Warlord traits being too random well play that violin some more. GW really wants you to use them! The CSM codex has it’s own Warlord chart, but the big announcement is some characters have specific Warlord Traits! These are built into the cost of the model, so no taking them out!

Meet the Geek at Faeit212 wrote:
One rumor I've heard is that Legions are in but not... basically it's just the "take X mark on your HQ" stuff expanded. So take a named Lord or X mark/upgrade and suddenly your force org chart swaps around, AKA kit your warlord with 'Night Lord' upgrades and undivided/no mark and suddenly Assault Marines/Bikers are troops. Alphas get Infiltrators, Irons that Dark Tech Marine thing, etc.

I think these newest rumours really make this release look good. We don't know how competitive the book is yet of course but it's clear the CSM will have a distinct look and feel to them when compared to let's say IG or any loyalist Marine army. It could for example be an army with some veteran Chaos Marines with their vehicles, a Daemon Prince, many big gribbly Obliterator types, a half-daemon half-flyer creature or three, some massive daemon engine artillery and some cultist rabble. All in all it sounds like the most accurate tabletop manifestation of the CSM from the Black Library novels ever. SW got their Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Lords and Cav, BA got their golden boys and other angels and vampires, and Chaos won't be 'Marines with spiky bitz' anymore but something unique.

Rivet wrote:Cheaper Noise Marines make me happy. Would hope they also drop the price of the Blast Master.
Regardless, I still want vehicle sonic weaponry. (I bet this is too far out of the realm of possibility though)
Looking forward to making some Slaanesh Cultists (yay conversion time!)

I'm also very happy with this. I have a lot of Noise Marines fully painted, just waiting to be fielded. Blastmaster has always been worthless. What other 40 point weapon does so little? I can't think of one.

Also, if Forgeworld rules are opened up, then there's the Emperor's Children Dreadnought with Sonic Blaster and Blastmaster arm that you can use

Sephyr wrote:I see no marks giving extra CC attacks, so it could be that the Rage USR will be replacing the extra +1A from the khorne mark. Still remains to be seen, though.

By now I'm mostly curious about the design 'theme' we are going to see. If CSM is to be a high-value, low-number army like GKs, we need to see quite a boost in rules, statlines and weaponry. If they are going to be skilled generalists like vanilla marines, prices need to drop and the line needs more variety in vehicles. So far, it seems that Kelly may have tried to onclude both options, which is a gamble. More power to him if it works!

I definitely agree. At the point costs that they're currently at, a lot of the options are simply prohibitive. From some of the rumors about Daemonically Possessed things eating models, I'm guessing that Cultists will see play as cheap meatshields to feed your own army and soak up assault Overwatch, and the rest of your army brings the hammer down. They really gotta give a boost to some of our basic troops though if we hope to compete with the ridiculousness that can be fielded by other armies.

I really hope they DON'T do any shenanigans like Necron MSS or GK grenades. I don't want that. Whenever I play as or against either of those armies with those options taken, I don't have fun. It's really lame to roll against yourself and kill your own models because of an opponent's stupid rule, and even more ridiculous that those things can force Force Weapon checks to insta-gib your characters. I don't want that in CSM. I don't want CSM to be an easy point-and-shoot army, which is why I'm glad Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices, so we should see lots of different army builds in this.

Rivet wrote:Looks like no more running two Daemon Princes if I want to field cult as troops...

I don't think it'd be worth it anyway. The rumors suggest that Daemon Princes are getting a huge jump in cost to bring them in line with Chaos Daemons Daemon Princes, which gets really expensive really fast, and for not much good.

drbored wrote:

Rivet wrote:

Rivet wrote:Looks like no more running two Daemon Princes if I want to field cult as troops...

I don't think it'd be worth it anyway. The rumors suggest that Daemon Princes are getting a huge jump in cost to bring them in line with Chaos Daemons Daemon Princes, which gets really expensive really fast, and for not much good.

hopefully they become flying monstrous creatures, and not bullgak jump monstrous creatures. I think that would be more than 'not much good'

Please be September, please be September, please be September.

All these new toys and rules making old toys better....

Ready your wallets men!

Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices

Like Eldar 4th edition Tri-falcon! No? Maybe space wolves with a ton of long fangs, psyker, and gray hunters than!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices

Like Eldar 4th edition Tri-falcon! No? Maybe space wolves with a ton of long fangs, psyker, and gray hunters than!

Or the Ork Codex? Perhaps the longest lasting with a fine mix of different powerful builds. The Eldar codex lasted for a decent amount of time and is incredibly old now and the space wolves codex would have been fine other than long fangs points cost. (I took on space wolves with my orks in 5th perhaps 20 times and never lost once to them, despite a wide range of power builds from the wolves and a wide range of player skills).

Hmmm...i just bought 2 units of thousand sons because i love their models(and am terrified that GW will make the 1k sons models horrible because GW hates 1k sons) and am going to use them as allies. but if they look new and awesome i may have to buy some more...curse you GW!!!

hopefully their rules dont suck either, but i am using them anyway!

Neko wrote:As someone who's seen the dragon, I can definitely say that it has it in the looks department
(...)
Well, at first glance I thought it was based on a bird rather than a dragon. It's definitely not a snake style dragon as I know some people have been speculating.
(...)
I did see a couple of the other models, but they didn't stick in my mind as well as the dragon, sorry.
I do remember that there were the 2 types of Raptor, from which I got the impression that one is a standard Raptor, and the other is a Raptor that's spent way too much time in the warp (possessed Raptor maybe?). The second type of raptor was more close combat focused, with claws and the like.
As I say, out of the deamon engines I was too busy drooling over the dragon to remember much about the others. I seem to have it stuck in my head though that there were 2 different types based on the same core design though, and I think they were stocky quadrupeds in design. Basically, whilst the Defiler could be said to be based on an arachnid, I think these were based on a more mammalian body type.