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MeanGreenStompa wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices

Like Eldar 4th edition Tri-falcon! No? Maybe space wolves with a ton of long fangs, psyker, and gray hunters than!

Or the Ork Codex? Perhaps the longest lasting with a fine mix of different powerful builds. The Eldar codex lasted for a decent amount of time and is incredibly old now and the space wolves codex would have been fine other than long fangs points cost. (I took on space wolves with my orks in 5th perhaps 20 times and never lost once to them, despite a wide range of power builds from the wolves and a wide range of player skills).

Orks are good, but Eldar was nearly monobuild in 4th when it was released. Kelly is good but he's got some dry work, not to mention at times his books seems to have some major pricing issues (Warriors of Chaos, Eldar in 4th, Space Wolves)

Building up Night Lords. Raptors are sounding like they maybe a must have.

Mat

Man, it sounds like they are going to make demon princes suck in Fantasy and 40K now.

There was quite a lot of detail into the descriptions of the raptors in Void Stalker which did seem different from their traditional looks.

Maybe some tips?

Noisy_Marine wrote:Man, it sounds like they are going to make demon princes suck in Fantasy and 40K now.

I dont know if just raising the points cost so that they match what is in line with other dexes means that they are going to suck now. After all, Vector strike etc. makes them very utilitarian. Besides they are the whole package. Anti vehicle, anti troop all in one.

Do you guys reckon there will be a new chaos lord kit, I think its fine but with all the rumoured changes to how much lords can be customised, trying to decide wether or not to get one now, gives me an excuse to get new brushs I need anyway hehe.

They wouldnt be able to fit it in one codex

By this line, the CSM codex better be bigger than the SM codex or that makes no sense.
I mean you can't just say "for x points per model the 'cult' unit can have terminator armor" that takes up so much space?

unmercifulconker wrote:Do you guys reckon there will be a new chaos lord kit, I think its fine but with all the rumoured changes to how much lords can be customised, trying to decide wether or not to get one now, gives me an excuse to get new brushs I need anyway hehe.

There's no reason for a new Terminator Lord kit. It's a great kit and it's not very old at all. New PA ones would be nice though.

Yeah regular lord kit would be nice, although there's rumoured to be a finecast one atleast.

Gunna wait then, if the wargear expands a lot then I need to plan what extra bits to get him.

A plastic lord kit would be fantastic, especially if they're going to be that customizable.

Logan from Faeit212 wrote:The original concept was to make very specific legion rules but the problem was


1. They wouldnt be able to fit it in one codex
2. Multiple codices is hard to sustain unless there is much effort.


So there was a compromise. One codex. No heavy legion rules or advantages. But if you waited to play a certain legion they'd give you the tools to make it. With marks or a few units. So cult terminators might have once been real.

So CSM don't sell enough to get distinct legions? Why don't you just retcon the fluff, make everyone Black Legion and put everyone else out of their misery?

Well? What are you waiting for?


Do it.


DO IT!!!

*Sigh* I was really hoping for legion rules. At least we get cultists and the possibility of demons through allies. So we almost got everything.

And I'm thinking maybe they didn't want chaos to have terminator troops? Because you could put cult units in TDA and make them troops and that is somehow bad ... ?

No legion rules...wt*bleep*, not enough space they say? look ad C:SM that's a bigger book than alot of other codexes. Its sounds like our book is going to be left in the dust before it has even come out.

Guys, these are still just rumors. This guy doesn't have credibility yet. It's not a guarantee yet. Do you have the book yet? No? Then you don't know if it's real. A lot of people are starting to doubt these rumors based on the upcoming Tau rumors losing Kroot-give it time. We can all bitch our heads off if he's right and legion rules don't exist. Of course, the marks, icons, Apostles and Mechanics rumored lend to 6 of the legions already (Word bearers, Iron Warriors, 4 cult groups) and of course Black Legion, so 6 types already exist. Apostles plus cultists and daemon allies make for a nice WB army, and the Mechanics may move around the FOC to create an epic Iron Warriors army. Point is, nobody knows yet, but it feels like we're crying over milk that MIGHT spill-it hasn't yet.

The original plan was to do something that loads of Chaos fans want, but we decided to not do that because we don't like money???

And the Cult Terminator problem wouldn't be a problem if special rules were gained via Marks rather than being inherent to the unit. Remove 1KSons, Plague Marines, 'Zerkers and Noise Marines as distinct entries and instead change it to Marines + Mark = Cult Troop Type. That way the same rules can apply to Terminators (Terminator + Mark of Nurgle = Plague Terminators, Marines + Mark of Tzeentch = 1kSons marines, etc.).

H.B.M.C. wrote:The original plan was to do something that loads of Chaos fans want, but we decided to not do that because we don't like money???

And the Cult Terminator problem wouldn't be a problem if special rules were gained via Marks rather than being inherent to the unit. Remove 1KSons, Plague Marines, 'Zerkers and Noise Marines as distinct entries and instead change it to Marines + Mark = Cult Troop Type. That way the same rules can apply to Terminators (Terminator + Mark of Nurgle = Plague Terminators, Marines + Mark of Tzeentch = 1kSons marines, etc.).

More like sales split between multiple legions book dont justify the cost. At least the army composition isn't determined just by special characters... that was something you hated and see its less bad now.

I can't say I like that method. Even though they existed at one point I don't believe the elites of those 4 would all wear terminator armor given their distinct martial modus operandi.

aka_mythos wrote:More like sales split between multiple legions book dont justify the cost.

You don’t need multiple books. You didn’t in 3rd Ed and they all fit inside there, and that book will probably end up being half the size of the new one. Lack of space is a copout. Legions are a page or two of rules at best, and modifications to the FOC.

aka_mythos wrote:At least the army composition isn't determined just by special characters... that was something you hated and see its less bad now.

“Less bad”. Wow. Real silver lining there...

aka_mythos wrote:I can't say I like that method. Even though they existed at one point I don't believe the elites of those 4 would all wear terminator armor given their distinct martial modus operandi.

You’re being overly specific and missing my point. I’m not saying “this is the way to do Cult Termies!”, I’m saying this is the way to do Cult units. Period. Whether a specific Legion would or wouldn’t use Terminator armour is irrelevant. What matters is that a unified Mark system (like 3.5) would stop there being a difference between “Plague Marines” and “Terminators w/Icon of Nurgle”.

You could limit who could take the Marks (no Slaaneshi Terminators, for example, though I don’t understand why any one of the ‘Big 4’ wouldn’t use Terminators), but that would be a unit-by-unit thing. So the Bike entry might say

A unit of Chaos Space Marine Bikers can take one of the following:

Mark of Khorne – +5 points per model
Mark of Slaanesh – +5 points per model
Mark of Nurgle – +10 points per model

But no Tzeentch, and then the Raptor entry might not include Nurgle, or whatever. The specifics, as I said, don’t matter as much as the actual Mark system/mechanic itself, which does work and is 100000000 times better than the crap we have in the ‘Chaos’ Codex now (and what will likely carry through into the next book).

aka_mythos wrote:I can't say I like that method. Even though they existed at one point I don't believe the elites of those 4 would all wear terminator armor given their distinct martial modus operandi.

Nah, this one time Lucius invited all the Terminators from all the legions to his pad for this crazy orgy but then the Tyranids showed up and they all got ate - the end. But it's ok guys - we get raptors and raptors that fly even harder! It's everything we ever wanted!

I'm pretty sure this rumor is explaining why there was not a unique Chaos Legions codex in addition to the Chaos Space Marine codex. I don't think the rumor is indicating their won't be rules with the CSM codex that allow players to take legion units(plague marines, berserkers,etc.), or units that aren't everything but legion in name, i.e. Terminators with mark of khorne and USRs to fit what would otherwise be "World Eater" terminators.

You guys are flipping out over a "rumor" from the comment section of Faeit 212 for god sakes.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/ok-live-qna-chaos-marine-codex.html

Live Q&A going on soon of chaos space marine codex.

Starfarer wrote:You guys are flipping out over a "rumor" from the comment section of Faeit 212 for god sakes.

And if someone had said that Chaos would be losing Daemons, all Daemonic Gifts, Marks of Chaos for non-characters and going back to rando-Possessed back before the current book came out, we would have called them mad.

What I’m trying to say is that we’ve been burned before.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Starfarer wrote:You guys are flipping out over a "rumor" from the comment section of Faeit 212 for god sakes.

And if someone had said that Chaos would be losing Daemons, all Daemonic Gifts, Marks of Chaos for non-characters and going back to rando-Possessed back before the current book came out, we would have called them mad.

What I’m trying to say is that we’ve been burned before.

You're right, but we've also been burned by people like ghost21, and others completely making up things up to pull one over on us. No point lashing out in anger at GW over the claims of a totally unknown rumormonger at this point.

Crayola wrote:http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/ok-live-qna-chaos-marine-codex.html

Live Q&A going on soon of chaos space marine codex.

Cool, thanks for sharing, I'be asked some very specific questions that, assuming he answers, should let us know his credibility once the codex hits. Obviously general guesses can be made by clever "rumormongers" and end up getting it right, but I'm more interested in hearing from guys like Faeit 212"s Grant who was providing new USR names and rules weeks before 6th edition.

I can believe these rumors because GW can't seem to make a proper Chaos Codex. Should have let Ward write the damn thing, at least then it would have been tainted by chaos and utterly broken instead of bland.

Spartan089 wrote:I can believe these rumors because GW can't seem to make a proper Chaos Codex. Should have let Ward write the damn thing, at least then it would have been tainted by chaos and utterly broken instead of bland.

How about you read the codex first before your knee jerks clear off your leg?

How 'bout you let people react to the rumours lest we all just sit in silence talking about nothing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:How 'bout you let people react to the rumours lest we all just sit in silence talking about nothing.

I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

Starfarer wrote:I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

Fair enough.


But the cycle can be fun!

Starfarer wrote:
I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

To quote Battle Star Galactica: "Messenger Six: "All of this has happened before..."

Starfarer wrote:I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

Earlier in this thread someone was "internet" pissed about the codex and already talking about not buying it blah blah blah. I get what you're saying. I'm less irritated about what may or may not be in it than I am about the fact that we have to wait even longer for it's release.

Crayola wrote:http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/ok-live-qna-chaos-marine-codex.html

Live Q&A going on soon of chaos space marine codex.

Lots of cool stuff being listed off on there.

Noise marines are overall a little bit cheaper. Sonic Blasters are 36" salvo now. Aspiring champions have access to a whip that prevents enemies from denying challenges. Other weapons are the same.

Most named characters are the same, but overall a point reduction. Abbadon is the same points and does not make terminators troops.

There are no new named characters.

Thousand Sons come with an Aspiring Sorcerer in their basic 5 before adding more Rubric marines.

There is a sound-based vehicle upgrade but it's more of a Word Bearers item than Slaanesh.

I haven't read any special character adjusting the allies chart.

The only impact on Marks is that HQ models make corresponding cult units Troops.

There are 2 debuff spells in Nurgle and Slaanesh, 2 buff spells in Slaanesh.

Abadon (His CC attacks) is AP2, Daemon Weapons are AP3

Question:
Will Terminators be able to be given both marks and icons to essentially be cult terminators?

Answser:
Yes, but it's expensive. Taking both increases the cost of the second and Terminators pay more in the first place.

Skull Champions can take collars that give the squad and any vehicle it's embarked in a 5+ DtW

You can mix/match Marks and Icons.

+1T/FnP isn't as good as a Plague Marine, they're worth their points.

HQ unlocks corresponding cult troop.

Kharne strikes at initiative 5, and he gained armour bane which I guess is new. He's AP3, but for every model he kills (not wound inflicted) he makes an additional attack at initiative 1.

Not quite the same as warrior born as it doesn't keep growing, but it's very devastating for someone with 8 attacks on the charge.

khorne berserkers [chain axes] are AP5

There are no new fortifications but there is a unique upgrade to fortifications.

Question:
How does demonic possession work now?

Answer:
They're the same except they have the Daemon special rule, 4 hull points and a 5+ invulnerable save.

There is a sonic upgrade for tanks, but it's not a noise-marine thing.

I don't know about upgrades being finecast. I know that there is intent to upgrade the basic CSM box to support all the cult troops to be able to achieve any of the weapon combinations from the entries (including everyone having soundblasters).

Raptors still have access to special weapons, only the aspiring champion can take special melee weapons. They are reduced in points.

The Night Lord's raptors are a lot like vanguard (they cannot charge on deep strike though), but they have 2 attacks base + dual power weapons (ap3) with the shred special rule and are 35 points each.

Edit:

The "eye of the Gods" table is actually several tables. First you roll to see what table you roll on, then you roll what you get after winning a challenge, killing a monstrous creature or walker, or annihilating a unit in close combat.

One of the tables is Daemonic Gifts.

Possessed get to buy (not roll) up to 3 boons from the table.

Cultists are 4 points each and come in squads of 10-30. They can have any combination of autoguns (str3 ap-) or auto pistol ccw (str 3 ap-)

They can take special weapons, but not heavy weapons.

they respond very well to dark apostles getting an extra benefit when one is in their unit.