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I think that's because it's become so formulaic. There will be no new units, of course, a bunch of strategems, relics, warlord traits and psychic powers.

I expect the book to be decently competitive, with a good few options in it.

However, yes, it will most likely be quite boring.

That's sort of 8th for me anyway, they have toned down the fun and interesting aspect of the game to make things more balanced and competitive IMO.


But I do expect the book to be competitive overall by the end of it.

Aren73 wrote:
I think that's because it's become so formulaic. There will be no new units, of course, a bunch of strategems, relics, warlord traits and psychic powers.

I expect the book to be decently competitive, with a good few options in it.

However, yes, it will most likely be quite boring.

That's sort of 8th for me anyway, they have toned down the fun and interesting aspect of the game to make things more balanced and competitive IMO.


But I do expect the book to be competitive overall by the end of it.

Well, speak for yourself I guess. I have been playing dark eldar since early 6th and I've never had rules as fluffy or interesting as the current drukhari codex, never mind balanced/powerful. Regardless of whether Ravagers and Kabalites and Grots are nerfed (and they probably will be) the actual rules that are in the book are awesome.

People who never really did the Space Marine thing have never gotten to customize the setups of their army based on their fluff like they can now.

I just can't believe the harlequins aren't getting a single new unit!!! Mimes would have been amazing as a infiltrating second troupe, or GW could have at least added a second box of troupe sculpts to mix it up a bit for conversion purposes.

I'm OK with no new new units, I just hope the ones we have interact well together and several list types will be viable.

I've been playing since before the 5th ed Necron codex and frankly I really miss it. The crypteks and C'tan shards were really interesting then, to me that's when Necrons were most fun. Not balanced but fluffy and fun.

I started playing Harlequins in 7th and I do think that the 8th ed codex may be an improvement on that. But that doesn't mean I think the rules will be exceptionally inspired or interesting.

I just think it will be...alright I guess. There will be some fun things like for example the solitaire, some interesting strategems, I really like the one that lets you shoot at a unit falling back.

Dionysodorus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

envision this with me for a second:

standard competitive aeldari soup, right? Arguably right now you've got alaitoc battalion for most of your CWE stuff, Black Heart battalion for kabs ravagers and archons (mandatory), and maybe Red Grief with some Reavers, maybe Saim-Hann with some spears. Those are arguably right now your most standard elements for a competitive eldar soup list.

Now, similar setup but with Silent Shroud:

Black Heart battalion basically the same. Maybe a couple more PGLs, 2-3 more. Alaitoc cut down to a patrol with a farseer skyrunner for doom and mind war, a few rangers to block your odd non-fly rush or else objective-sit, and a Hemlock with Jinx. Silent Shroud Battalion with 3 relatively cheap troupes with a couple fusion in each in Starweavers, 1 Troupe Master, 6 Skyweavers with Glaives, 1 Solitaire with the Mask of Secrets, 1 Shadowseer for Twilight Pathways and (hopefully) a second spell, because 125pt psychers should probably get two spells that aren't smite :/.

I think this relies on it being pretty hard to try to compare these two very different lists. Like, you've substituted in comparable elements but we have to evaluate just how much better or worse each one is and then put all of that together, and maybe Skyweavers will have been buffed, etc. I don't think we have to do this to understand the problem with the strategy here, though.

What if instead of Silent Shroud your Harlequin battalion is Midnight Sorrow? Or Frozen Stars? What are you losing? Only what is roughly the equivalent of a -2 Ld debuff on whichever of the Infantry Squads are within 6" of you. Meanwhile Frozen Stars would just let your 6 Skyweavers inflict almost 3 more casualties in CC. And each extra casualty is better than a -2 Ld debuff on a squad (each kill not only gets rid of a model directly but also effectively applies a -1 Ld debuff to their morale check). Midnight Sorrow significantly enhances your ability to tie up more things after combat. Frozen Stars is hugely better on later turns as your regular troupes hit, since Silent Shroud doesn't stack.

You're losing the Silent Shroud stratagem, which lets your fast engage biker blob do its primary role - tying things up - with zero casualties on the way in.

Sure, Shining Spears blow Skyweavers out of the water if you're assuming they'll be charging and hitting marines in combat or some similar unit that cares about your S6 Ap-4 D2 weapons, but in 99% of cases thats not their job. Their job is to tie up a whole mess of chaff and force your opponent to deal with them before they can get forward and swarm objectives.

Your rangers are turn 1 movement insurance, your bikers are for tying things up either turn 1 (if you go first) or turn 2 (if you went second and you sacrificed your rangers to prevent movement top of turn 1).

The three main units we have seen used in that role are 9 Shining spears (279pts total, the best offense), and 12 Reaver Jetbikes (216 points and no psychic support or stratagems required to get them in, but the least effective offense and defense). Skyweavers were priced out initially, but they've received a 11-16pt reduction depending on loadout.

Now we will almost certainly see a buff to haywire cannons. They went up in price, and in present form they're identical to haywire blasters but Heavy rather than assault...that's garbage. They'll at the very least see their shots going up to D6, in an ideal world I'd want to see them Assault type as well, that'd really be gravy.

The most realistic, expected scenario for your turn 1 bike alpha is that they shoot tanks, then charge GEQ or somesuch other screen. against those targets, Shining Spears deal 30% more raw damage, but but they give up defense because they take overwatch, don't have -1 to hit, and don't have 3++ saves. The skyweavers also give the aforementioned -2ld.

I do think there's a scenario where each is best, but I also think that the ability to fearlessly charge into a whole tau fire warrior line and just tank them is worth quite a lot.

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure how dropping Ld is a bad thing. Take one casualty on a unit with Ld 8 for example. It's an auto pass normally. Let's say you are able to debuff that unit to -6. His Ld is effectively 2 and has lost 1 model. He rolls a 5 and now loses an additional 4 models. That's a lot of damage for a weapon that just scored 1 wound originally.
Granted I know you could just focus fire anyway, but it's a good way to get around very tough units. It's a playstyle that differs from the norm so that at least is a welcome addition.

One issue is that many armies pretty much can shrug it off anyway. Either by flat out ignoring or having other ways to migate. Orks. -6? Bohoo. I have ld20+ anyway.


There are armies that hate it and armies that laugh it off so unless you know in advance what you face and tailor your list against it you are often enough gaining nothing. Makes btw worse in tournament armies as those hate anything that can be hard countered

tneva82 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure how dropping Ld is a bad thing. Take one casualty on a unit with Ld 8 for example. It's an auto pass normally. Let's say you are able to debuff that unit to -6. His Ld is effectively 2 and has lost 1 model. He rolls a 5 and now loses an additional 4 models. That's a lot of damage for a weapon that just scored 1 wound originally.
Granted I know you could just focus fire anyway, but it's a good way to get around very tough units. It's a playstyle that differs from the norm so that at least is a welcome addition.

One issue is that many armies pretty much can shrug it off anyway. Either by flat out ignoring or having other ways to migate. Orks. -6? Bohoo. I have ld20+ anyway.


There are armies that hate it and armies that laugh it off so unless you know in advance what you face and tailor your list against it you are often enough gaining nothing. Makes btw worse in tournament armies as those hate anything that can be hard countered

Orks only have high LD until you start killing them though. Kill half an ork boy squad with -6LD+Roll 2 take highest, and sure, you don't kill all 15 of the remaining ones like you would with conscripts or cultists, but you do kill 11.

The toughest matchup actually seems to be Tau, since roll 2 take highest greatly increases the power of bonding knife ritual. I think however the inbuilt Silent Shroud "Screw your Greater Good" stratagem kind of makes up for that.

Sure, you have non-genestealer nids. They're annoying as heck to deal with as a freakshow. But Daemons, cultists, tzaangors, guardsmen - usually have no ld defenses at all.

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm OK with no new new units, I just hope the ones we have interact well together and several list types will be viable.

I was hoping for an option to take a Hemlock/Crimson Hunter/Razorwing, paint it in Harlequin colours, and be able to field it without eating that Auxiliary Detachment penalty myself in light of the FAQ beta rule on soup. Being able to take a flyer option from the Craftworld and Dark Eldar would seem entirely appropriate given that the Starweaver and Skyweaver were appropriated from the Dark Eldar.

the_scotsman wrote:

Orks only have high LD until you start killing them though. Kill half an ork boy squad with -6LD+Roll 2 take highest, and sure, you don't kill all 15 of the remaining ones like you would with conscripts or cultists, but you do kill 11.
.

You need often kill other units as well though. Remember they can get ld from adjacent blob as well. Wipe half the squad? No worries. Still line ld25 from nearby orks. And if you do such focus fire you lose advanantage of kill few from several units and cause lots of ld casualties due to multible d6 rolls which is big thing with area ld debuffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agiel wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm OK with no new new units, I just hope the ones we have interact well together and several list types will be viable.

I was hoping for an option to take a Hemlock/Crimson Hunter/Razorwing, paint it in Harlequin colours, and be able to field it without eating that Auxiliary Detachment penalty myself in light of the FAQ beta rule on soup. Being able to take a flyer option from the Craftworld and Dark Eldar would seem entirely appropriate given that the Starweaver and Skyweaver were appropriated from the Dark Eldar.

That would have for current gw demanded new box released with harlequin hemlock etc with likely upgrade sprue

ottokill wrote:
I just can't believe the harlequins aren't getting a single new unit!!! Mimes would have been amazing as a infiltrating second troupe, or GW could have at least added a second box of troupe sculpts to mix it up a bit for conversion purposes.

Your pretty much the only person who is surprised at that.

Maybe I'm not surprised, but I certainly was hoping there'd be something. I suppose this doesn't make sense lore wise but I do have a wraithlord I always wanted to use in harlequins, but things like flyers would have worked a lot better.


Or if they wanted to keep the list pure they could have added in mimes or something that you could just model from existing kits maybe? The kind of kitbashes that the flesheater courts got with the vargheist - crypthorror kitbash.

Aren73 wrote:
Maybe I'm not surprised, but I certainly was hoping there'd be something. I suppose this doesn't make sense lore wise but I do have a wraithlord I always wanted to use in harlequins, but things like flyers would have worked a lot better.


Or if they wanted to keep the list pure they could have added in mimes or something that you could just model from existing kits maybe? The kind of kitbashes that the flesheater courts got with the vargheist - crypthorror kitbash.

But there’s no dual kits to kitbash into a new unit - how would you make a Mime? It would just be a Harlequin with a specific loadout, that they can already take.

Ideally they’d just give us rules for stuff but in the world of no model = no rules and the fact that Harlies aren’t getting any models, I don’t know what you can do with the kits to make a new unit. Especially something like a Mime which should be it’s own distinct thing.

Well that's where it gets difficult, the kits are somewhat limiting. At a push you could say that models with a certain type of mask are mimes but it's pretty difficult to see that on the table.

Frankly, I'm not sure. Maybe for mimes they'd have to release an upgrade kit that you use on your normal troupe, but maybe that's just a bad idea.

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Orks only have high LD until you start killing them though. Kill half an ork boy squad with -6LD+Roll 2 take highest, and sure, you don't kill all 15 of the remaining ones like you would with conscripts or cultists, but you do kill 11.
.

You need often kill other units as well though. Remember they can get ld from adjacent blob as well. Wipe half the squad? No worries. Still line ld25 from nearby orks. And if you do such focus fire you lose advanantage of kill few from several units and cause lots of ld casualties due to multible d6 rolls which is big thing with area ld debuffs.

I don’t see mob rule in its current form surviving the ork codex. Personally I expect a negate casualty mechanic from large blobs shared to other units. Thus orks are still ld6/7 but effectively immune to casualties until either A) you debuff thier base LD or B) dwindle thier numbers enough to make casualties start counting. But nonsense like ld30 just breaks to many rules and makes complimentary morale rules like breaking heads useless.

Conscripts and Guardsmen use the same kit. They could have done the same with mimes, but that's unlike GW to do so.
A troupe master on Skyweaver was the most probable new unit as far as I'm concerned, since it's basically a torso swap (needs a tiny bit of green stuff at the junction, but nothing major). That's the kind of conversion that's similar to the GMNDK, but only a couple codex got that kitbash treatment.
Anyway, that's not gonna happen now, so we can move on.

I'm now eager to see the neuro-disruptor/haywire cannon profiles. If the first one becomes a viable anti-horde or anti-elite (always wound on 2s, flat damage), and the second one is a viable anti-tank option, then maybe codex: harlequin won't be codex: fusion pistols.
And I hope one of the relics will go well on a solitaire. It really really needs a power boost.

Idk, without buffs and with any s4 weapon you kill around 13 Orks with a unit of 10 Harliquins. Even with s3 swords you’ll kill 6 or so and with the points reduction they’re pretty affordable. Charge the entire line and bring a DE detachment to get rid of the strategem that lets the Orks fight first. With all the ld debuffs you could take out enough boyz to do some serious damage.

Bets on a Harlequin article on WC today?

Aren73 wrote:
Bets on a Harlequin article on WC today?

I hope so. They should be able to make articles on warlord/stratagems/artefacts even if there isn't much else to talk about.

note. I don’t expect the quin unit to survive, that’s not the point. The point is to quickly thin the horde. Orks get very weak when they lose numbers so the follow up will kill em

Also Psychic powers, also probably one article will be a gate reveal.

So, we have 5, maybe 6 (if they do a unit focus for changed stats...like the death jester maybe?) articles left and 4 days left till preorder/11 days left till release.

So, an article every other day or so?

war wrote:
Idk, without buffs and with any s4 weapon you kill around 13 Orks with a unit of 10 Harliquins. Even with s3 swords you’ll kill 6 or so and with the points reduction they’re pretty affordable. Charge the entire line and bring a DE detachment to get rid of the strategem that lets the Orks fight first. With all the ld debuffs you could take out enough boyz to do some serious damage.

10 Harlequins with S4 weapons is around 200pts, so as much as 33 boyz.
So the quins charge and kill 13 boyz. Then the remaining 20 destroy the quins in one go.

Obviously when you play Harlequins you can't afford to charge units you can't cripple or kill outright (otherwise you get killed when they fight back), so this scenario isn't great to begin with.
But Harlequins don't have any good way to clear hordes. The moral phase was supposed to be the balancing mechanism to hordes, and Ld debuff could have been the way for Harlies to cause the extra casualties they're not able to make to cheap chaff. But sadly immunity to morale is quite widespread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aren73 wrote:
Also Psychic powers, also probably one article will be a gate reveal.

So, we have 5, maybe 6 (if they do a unit focus for changed stats...like the death jester maybe?) articles left and 4 days left till preorder/11 days left till release.

So, an article every other day or so?

Articles like that are only released before the pre-order, so only 4 days left.

My guess it today we have the last pure Harlie preview, with some warlord traits, relics and psychic power, plus a unit focus (DJ?) and maybe a weapon focus (Neuro?).
Then nothing tomorrow, and Friday is just for the gate.

I am really hoping the void weaver gets some tweaks to help with hoard thinning.

Truly feels that the Harlie codex is just an afterthought. Its all AOS, all the time right now. Sucks.

 bullyboy wrote:
Truly feels that the Harlie codex is just an afterthought. Its all AOS, all the time right now. Sucks.

You should check the latest article, then.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/16/16th-may-harlequins-preview-stratagems-warlord-traits-and-moregw-homepage-post-1/

It was an afterthought when they made it the first time. Why is this a surprise? Although saying all AOS all the time is a ridiculous statement.

The shadowseer finally gets a second power.
And it can now really increase foot harlequin's durability. A single shadowseer can provide -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and a 6+++. With prismatic blurr that unit could even be bumped to a 3++. That's some pretty decent durability (expect against mortal wounds). Not game changing, but I think it will be a real option in casual games.

Faolchu's talon seems like a must for Soaring spite gunboats. A Starweaver with a 28" movement filled with fusion pistol isn't half bad.

Dang I am slow. Nijad.

Also new relic Curtainfall wich can be used by a Death Jester curious about it.

There should be Cegorach's rose in there somewhere too. Hopefully it will be good on a Solitaire.