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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I cant say Tony is to blame. There was five years of people living their life, having a family, forming connections, getting on with their live.
Its not fair to them completly undo that.
Beinginf everyone back from the snap was the most fair thing.


Ah, but you could snap the last five years out of history entirely...


Morgan says bye!
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






And then, potentially, hello again 5 years later.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Lance845 wrote:
Well you have to remember. 1/2 of all people didn't experience anything over the last 5 years. One moment there. One moment back. Of course they are just trying to return to the way things were. They don't know anything else.

I said as much in another post, yeah, but that doesn't magically erase the other half of the world's experiences either.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Lance845 wrote:
And then, potentially, hello again 5 years later.


The probability of that is astronomically low. Explicitly not a chance Tony is willing to take.
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






If characters made perfect decisions all the time storytelling would be very boring.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




And then you've got the other side of things- people who died (but didn't get blipped) as a consequence of the blip. ~50% of cars on the road lost their drivers simultaneously. ~25% of planes lost the pilot and copilot; so while 50% of passengers also vanished, the other half are suddenly faced with nasty crashes and half of the emergency services missing.

Those people don't get to come back.

Then you've got the people who died in the five years (like Maria Rambeau). Its a super messy situation, with no real solutions

The Flagsmashers' ideal is very naïve. The idea that they can punch their way to their goals is honestly laughable.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Easy E wrote:
So, this time Marvel is stealing the Wushu/Martial Arts genre conventions for their cape flick.
Or just making a movie of a comic that's nearly 50 years old.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Albertorius wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Well you have to remember. 1/2 of all people didn't experience anything over the last 5 years. One moment there. One moment back. Of course they are just trying to return to the way things were. They don't know anything else.

I said as much in another post, yeah, but that doesn't magically erase the other half of the world's experiences either.


Agreed.

LunarSol wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
And then, potentially, hello again 5 years later.


The probability of that is astronomically low. Explicitly not a chance Tony is willing to take.



Yeah, but the thing Tony was willing to leave untold billions dead for the sake of his 1 when he probably wouldnt even know she was gone. There is no math where Tony isnt a selfish prick.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Voss wrote:
The Flagsmashers' ideal is very naïve. The idea that they can punch their way to their goals is honestly laughable.


I agree they are naive but that is why, once enhanced by a super soldier serum, they think they can punch their way to their goals. They are just now running into other enhanced humans, or clever non-enhanced like Zemo, and haven't quite grasped the weight of the opposition.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in ca
Krazed Killa Kan




Monarchy of TBD

It's pretty typical for militant refugees though. You seek safety somewhere, and then if it goes away, you try to fight those who are taking away what you think you are owed.

Unfortunately, the Flagsmashers inciting incident happens off camera, so we can't really say if their cause is justified.

If kids were starving, or being rounded up and sent to dedicated reeducation camps or such... sure, they might have cause. If it's just a gradual relocation back to their country of origin, which is not as desirable as the country they've taken refuge in, it's less sympathetic.

You'd have to assume that an individual with the drive to forge a deal to get illicit biotechnology from the other side of the globe would be able to go through channels, or form a large enough group to represent to negotiate on their behalf. For them to work as tragic freedom fighters, we need to see the Flagsmashers trying to do it the nonviolent, legal way, and be rebuffed by greedy or even better, racist politicians and their jackbooted thugs before they radicalized.

As it is- what we see is a criminal organization start killing, and turning terrorist. They take care of their own, true, but most of those types of organizations do.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
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Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I think that's where that 'Vaccine/Pandemic Theory' a few pages back comes in, that can help square the show for the remaining episode, if you're sort of ok with 'headcanons.'

If there was a bunch of footage earlier in the show about the refugees being denied vaccine by countries with functioning militaries, and this was responsible for the death of not just Mama Donya, but thousands of other people, and you had scenes of the Flashsmashers handing the vaccines to local doctors... Then I think everything motive-wise adds up pretty well.

However, it IS absolutely right to judge the show on the merits presented on screen, and I can completely get how the motivations as presented wouldn't work for people.

   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Ahtman wrote:
Voss wrote:
The Flagsmashers' ideal is very naïve. The idea that they can punch their way to their goals is honestly laughable.


I agree they are naive but that is why, once enhanced by a super soldier serum, they think they can punch their way to their goals. They are just now running into other enhanced humans, or clever non-enhanced like Zemo, and haven't quite grasped the weight of the opposition.


That's part of their problem. Being enhanced doesn't actually help them (they could do what they've done with guns and bombs as easily as punching, and demonstrably no one even gave a damp fart until they started randomly showing off the super soldier serum). Other enhanced are not their road-block. Paperwork and PR is. Whatever the motives of the GRC (good, bad or indifferent, it actually doesn't matter at this point in the narrative) they're attacking it in _exactly_ the wrong way. They've voluntarily painted themselves as murderers and terrorists, and got the people they were 'helping' dragged off as suspects, evicted from what little shelter they had.

At this point they can't do good, just harm the people they come into contact with, and make their situations worse (the kids in that shelter are... where, now?)
With what seems like a decapitation strike against the governing board (which is what seems to be happening next episode), what little aid that does come out is going to grind to a halt, and public will to devote any resources to helping the 'displaced' is already falling with their bombing and is going to plummet further. Even their people will turn away if they pursue this path, not by choice, but because real aid shipments will stop, and investigations won't.

Maintaining the Robin Hood-esque 'steal supplies for the people' could have built popular support for their movement, but what they've been doing in the second half the show is just brute terrorism with no end game.
Its a weird plan
'Woo, stateless anarchy!'
???
'Resources for everyone? Right? Right? Hello?'

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






I think them using super soldier serum is kinda going to one of the shows Thesis, that you dont need powers or the be enhanced to be great. Sam is going up against them next and he is gonna kick ass bespite being a normal human(With wakandan super tech yeah)

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think them using super soldier serum is kinda going to one of the shows Thesis, that you dont need powers or the be enhanced to be great. Sam is going up against them next and he is gonna kick ass bespite being a normal human(With wakandan super tech yeah)


Probably. But I think its going to fall flat for that reason. Serum/magic/super tech are all interchangeable at this level. Sure you get the rare 'omega class' hero in the MCU (Captain Marvel, Hulk, Thor, Scarlet Witch, Vision) that doesn't have competition most of the time. But the baseline tech/alchemy/gadgeteer/strong/martial arts heroes are just separated by flavor text.
Once he busts out the new wings and the shield, and they pull out... knives again, its a battle of equals in every way that matters.

Sure, they also have their case of special weapons ex machina to pull out and even things (or at least the tension) back up, but then our duo pulls out their 'heroic pluck' and defeats them despite the odds. Also yadda, yadda John Walker, something something Countess sequel bait.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 02:10:53


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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[MOD]
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Under the couch

Voss wrote:

Maintaining the Robin Hood-esque 'steal supplies for the people' could have built popular support for their movement, but what they've been doing in the second half the show is just brute terrorism with no end game.
Its a weird plan

It's a weird plan because Karli is being driven by emotion by this point. She clearly wasn't as negatively affected by the serum as Walker was, because she didn't start out with the same level of insecurity, but her not so gradual slide into using increasing levels of violence to advance her plans would seem to be coming from the same place.

 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Voss wrote:
That's part of their problem. Being enhanced doesn't actually help them (they could do what they've done with guns and bombs as easily as punching, and demonstrably no one even gave a damp fart until they started randomly showing off the super soldier serum).


Again, naive, as you already stated.


Voss wrote:
Other enhanced are not their road-block.


Didn't say they were just that the Flagsmashers are now really starting to run into them. I also mentioned non-enhanced (Zemo, Sam, ect) as well. Karli and crew went from regular person to "I can kick a car down the street and jump off buildings" overnight; they overestimate their abilities and capacity to affect change through force.


Also does anyone find it weird that they ambushed Sam/Bucky/Walker/Lemar with knives but act surprised when they actually killed someone? Isn't that what they were trying to do?

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Ahtman wrote:
Also does anyone find it weird that they ambushed Sam/Bucky/Walker/Lemar with knives but act surprised when they actually killed someone? Isn't that what they were trying to do?


It was a pretty blatant case of "quick, everyone react to the dramatic plot moment!"

It was amusing because right afterward Walker jumped through a window in a wall

   
Made in us
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I think its more they realized what killing him meant walker was going to do to them.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut






I like the show, but the Flasgsmashers really never started to look like good guys that just painted themselves into a corner and slowly lost it because of the serum. Interested to see how it will all end.

But re: unblipping everyone, Bruce did that. Tony did only end the following battle by dusting Thanos and all his minions.
   
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Member of the Ethereal Council






Well, Tony gave the stipulation that if they where to use time travel and he would help, no changing the past, just brining them back

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well, Tony gave the stipulation that if they where to use time travel and he would help, no changing the past, just brining them back


Ah, now that you're saying it, I remember.
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Compel wrote:
I think that's where that 'Vaccine/Pandemic Theory' a few pages back comes in, that can help square the show for the remaining episode, if you're sort of ok with 'headcanons.'

If there was a bunch of footage earlier in the show about the refugees being denied vaccine by countries with functioning militaries, and this was responsible for the death of not just Mama Donya, but thousands of other people, and you had scenes of the Flashsmashers handing the vaccines to local doctors... Then I think everything motive-wise adds up pretty well.

However, it IS absolutely right to judge the show on the merits presented on screen, and I can completely get how the motivations as presented wouldn't work for people.



From what I have understood, there was, but they excised it due to the current world situation. It kinda strikes a bit too far home right now...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 06:50:24


 
   
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[MOD]
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Under the couch

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think its more they realized what killing him meant walker was going to do to them.

This. They had intended to ambush and kill Walker. When they got their butts handed to them, and then Lemar copped it leaving them with a super-powered and angry Walker, they realised that they had just dumped themselves right in the thick and stinky, and chose the smart option. Note that even then, Karli was the last to leave, and did so reluctantly when she realised there was no other option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 09:38:48


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 Ahtman wrote:
Voss wrote:
That's part of their problem. Being enhanced doesn't actually help them (they could do what they've done with guns and bombs as easily as punching, and demonstrably no one even gave a damp fart until they started randomly showing off the super soldier serum).


Again, naive, as you already stated.


Voss wrote:
Other enhanced are not their road-block.


Didn't say they were just that the Flagsmashers are now really starting to run into them. I also mentioned non-enhanced (Zemo, Sam, ect) as well. Karli and crew went from regular person to "I can kick a car down the street and jump off buildings" overnight; they overestimate their abilities and capacity to affect change through force.


Also does anyone find it weird that they ambushed Sam/Bucky/Walker/Lemar with knives but act surprised when they actually killed someone? Isn't that what they were trying to do?


We also saw on gunned down when he tried to hold off peeps coming for the rest.

Whether he genuinely believed he could survive long to put up a fight isn’t clear. But it’s a reminder that Super Soldiers aren’t invincible. Yes, they can give and take a kicking with aplomb, but a rifle clip is still a bad day for them.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 insaniak wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think its more they realized what killing him meant walker was going to do to them.

This. They had intended to ambush and kill Walker. When they got their butts handed to them, and then Lemar copped it leaving them with a super-powered and angry Walker, they realised that they had just dumped themselves right in the thick and stinky, and chose the smart option. Note that even then, Karli was the last to leave, and did so reluctantly when she realised there was no other option.


Or maybe they killed someone they didn't mean to (as it was clearly shown when they incapacitated and tied him up) and the realization of what they did shocked them. I was pretty clear that the rest of the flag smashers weren't exactly all onboard with the firebombing of the supply depot either.

These are, after all, radicalized refugees, not soldiers.
   
Made in us
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MN

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
So, this time Marvel is stealing the Wushu/Martial Arts genre conventions for their cape flick.
Or just making a movie of a comic that's nearly 50 years old.


The idea and character, sure.

However, modern MCU does not simply make the comic. They modernize it. You can see where they used various conventions from other genres for each of their movies to make them a certain genre trope with a Cape in it.

I honestly did not expect that idea to be controversial.

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I guess I just don't like discussion that reduce films that involve super heroes as "cape flicks".

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






I think a big part of the success of the MCU is that they don't make cape flicks so much.

"Superhero Movie" as a genre is chocked full of repetitive plots and crap tropes and middling movies. I am talking Ghost Rider, Daredevil, the X Men movies, Batmans, Supermans, Green Lanturn etc etc...

But Marvel has taken the tactic of making a Movie in a genre that fits the character and then just happen to have it be about super heroes.

Winter Solider is a spy thriller. It just happens to be about super soldiers and Captain America. Guardians of the Galaxy 1 and 2 are Sci Fi action romps. Thor Ragnarok has more in common with a Buddy Cop movie then any other Superhero movie pre MCU.

So Shang Chi will (hopefully) just be a good martial arts movie that happens to be about this Marvel character, The Mandarin, and a set of magic (not magic) rings.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 15:22:35



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I guess I just don't like discussion that reduce films that involve super heroes as "cape flicks".


Fair enough. No offense intended. Just using it as short hand.

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Easy E wrote:
Fair enough. No offense intended. Just using it as short hand.
It's ok. It's not your fault.

Really it's my disdain for the attitudes of 4Chan (where they basically hate everything... and refer to any expression of joy or enthusiasm as "autism"... and people call Dakka negative... Jesus what a laugh! ), so everything is "cape gak", essentially the assumption that if it involves a super-hero, then it's all the same.

As if something like Logan is the same as, I dunno, Venom. Or Tim Burton's Batman.

 Lance845 wrote:
So Shang Chi will (hopefully) just be a good martial arts movie that happens to be about this Marvel character, The Mandarin, and a set of magic (not magic) rings.
My thoughts exactly. This will be Marvel's "martial arts" film. Yes, it involves one of their super heroes, but it's a martial arts film first.

I thought that, if not for the fact that I knew it was a Marvel film, nothing in the trailer pegs it as a "super hero film". I'm not the only one I've heard say this as well.

In the end I've always found Marvels use (misuse, and not use) of the Ten Rings/Mandarin to be interesting. They've been there literally since the first MCU film, got shat upon in Iron Man 3 (the only MCU film I actually dislike), redeemed in that One Shot, and now we finally get to see them for real. That's exciting for me, even if I didn't really know who Shang-Chi was until they announced the film.

And I love the interpretation of the actual 10 rings, not as finger rings, but as Hung Ga style arm bands. That's clever.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 16:16:44


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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