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So Top tier would be something like Craftworld Eldar/Necrons
Upper Middle would be something along the lines of Space Marines/Tau
Lower middle would be Blood Angels
Bottom Tier would be Tyrnids/CSM.

Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.

where was this?

Ghaz... why do you think your codex is weak. .. are you just trying to justify getting a new army? Seriously competitive orc builds are ridiculous just gotta look past what every one says

Thyhadras wrote:
Ghaz... why do you think your codex is weak. .. are you just trying to justify getting a new army? Seriously competitive orc builds are ridiculous just gotta look past what every one says

Im not going to take anything you say seriously thyhadras, especially about my army when you can't even spell its name correctly. As I pointed out before its ORK not ORC. Orc is JRR Tolkien ffs

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.

where was this?

During the Eldar release. Ork lists wiped out the Eldar and won the game. They aren't weak, people just don't know how to play them well or have really, really gakky rolls.

All this tier stuff is useless.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.

where was this?

During the Eldar release. Ork lists wiped out the Eldar and won the game. They aren't weak, people just don't know how to play them well or have really, really gakky rolls.

That was a single tourny and it was the same week or within 2 weeks of the Eldar release. Don't get me wrong the FW Biker army is good, and the green tide can be useful against low model count armies but thats about it.

I am sorry and am done with you. .. cry that your codex sucks when it seems that you are too stuck to learn how to adapt to play it in the new edition. .. just know that there are numerous ork players who have great success. .. also auto correct changes it. .. my only goal was to help you see how you could make your army better but instead I am just fine knowing you will lose most games you play and will simply cry about it being your sub par rules...

I will just go about finishing my chapter of marines and enjoying the game and attempting to help people who are willing to be helped


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz after your last post I an going to have to assume you are a plant to convince people not to play orks. .. seriously now the green tide is good against low model count armies only. ....

Top Tier. OF FUN!

Anyway, Orks have their good stuff but they aren't a competitive army. They don't need to be. Their best units and Formations aren't going to compete against Scatbike Spam or Pentyrant (which makes me wonder how you think Tyranids are bottom tier but whatever), but Orks have things like Lootas and Tank Bustas to really lay down their own fire and deal damage in a more relaxed meta.

Shaark there is othing better than a game against orks as they really do bring the fluff...

Orks are in a pretty weird spot. Being numerous and naturally melee-inclined makes them very good against the typical tournament decurion. (Rec legion-harvest-D cult.) That build is nutso durable against everyone else, but orks have the right combo of numbers and melee strength to occupy the canoptek units while others go sweep the warriors, destroyers, and immortals. Also to crons, a trukk may as well be a leman Russ for all the good armor does in the matchup, so the trukks are great value against them. You aren't paying for armor that just gets ignored.

They fight pretty well against most battle companies, being able to match the number of units most of them bring, which is one of the battleco's best strengths in objective based tournies like ITC. (Mine performs quite a bit better against orks since I go crazy with number of units and end up with tons of anti-infantry firepower.)

I've never seen an ork v. War convo match, so I can't comment there.

Flyrant spam is kind of a coin flip. I've seen lootas and bustas knock out a couple on t1 and the orks win massively, and I've seen them whiff and lose.

The other few top table lists like the 50 flavors of eldar tend to knock them out, but really, no army lacks bad matchups. What puts them in a weird spot is that even though they can go toe to toe with several top table lists, a bunch of mid table lists can wreck them, weird as it is.

With that in mind it's hard to call where I'd throw them in tournament strength. Definitely above BA, AM, and chaos marines. Even though the orks might lose directly to a list from one of those, they don't have a leg to stand on if they find themselves staring at the top table lists that orks can handle like decurions and such.

I'd say they're lower mid - around the same level as BA, DE and GKs (give or take, depending on list).

One thing though - are SMs really a tier below Eldar and Necrons? I thought their new book had put them at the same level as those two.

 koooaei wrote:
All this tier stuff is useless.

+100. My reasoning? Some people apparently believe Tyranids are bottom tier.

 koooaei wrote:
All this tier stuff is useless.

Why's that?

Same level as tau, Nids, daemons. Ie: one or two competitive level builds that feature just them and useful as supplemental allies.

Top tier is SM, Eldar: Multiple Competitive builds.

Middle tier (one core competitive list with variation): Mechanicus Tau Grey Knights Tyranids Daemons Orks Necrons dark angels Space Wolves

Low Tier (no lists that center around them, only supplemental): blood angels, guard, dark Eldar, harlequins, knights, assassins, inquisition, chaos marines, Khorne Daemonkin

Orks are in and solidly better than most middle tier armies, in that they have one core list (green tide) but with more variation than most mid tier armies, like tau or yes, Necrons, do.

That is the reality of the competitive scene at the moment. I know everyone likes to believe orks are useless but that is simply not reality.

They are not battle company marines, but they are pretty competitive. More than most people give them credit for.

Are there specific ork builds that tend to be very competitive?

 vipoid wrote:
Are there specific ork builds that tend to be very competitive?

There are two. Green tide-based lists is one, Bully Boyz+Blitz Brigade is another. Both of those are extremely competitive and give you freedom to go a lot of different places with them.

I like to think of orks as gatekeepers these days. They do decent but not good enough to get top marks. And any decent army has to pass the test of the orks. They can be a decent hard counter to competitive builds.

the_scotsman wrote:
Same level as tau, Nids, daemons. Ie: one or two competitive level builds that feature just them and useful as supplemental allies.

Top tier is SM, Eldar: Multiple Competitive builds.

Middle tier (one core competitive list with variation): Mechanicus Tau Grey Knights Tyranids Daemons Orks Necrons dark angels Space Wolves

Low Tier (no lists that center around them, only supplemental): blood angels, guard, dark Eldar, harlequins, knights, assassins, inquisition, chaos marines, Khorne Daemonkin

Orks are in and solidly better than most middle tier armies, in that they have one core list (green tide) but with more variation than most mid tier armies, like tau or yes, Necrons, do.

That is the reality of the competitive scene at the moment. I know everyone likes to believe orks are useless but that is simply not reality.

Necrons only middle tier? Uh, nah bro. This list is messed up in a few ways.

On topic, Orks are like Tyranids. In a casual setting, most of their stuff is meh and other armies can do it better, or at least just as good. In a competitive setting, they can be devastating, but only because they have 1-2 builds that really work, and that's it. You utilize maybe 1/8th of the codex.

Lower mid.

They perform well in tournament, against specific type of army. In casual game, when you play against player that doenst rock whatever flavour of the month list, I always found them a bit underwhelming.
I voted Lower Mid.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.

where was this?

During the Eldar release. Ork lists wiped out the Eldar and won the game. They aren't weak, people just don't know how to play them well or have really, really gakky rolls.

What a great example to give. And I know just which one your talking about too! One of the only ones left that majirly scores painting by yourself only allowed, actually uses voted army composition, and highly values points for sportsmanship! Who could have guessed?

 krodarklorr wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Same level as tau, Nids, daemons. Ie: one or two competitive level builds that feature just them and useful as supplemental allies.

Top tier is SM, Eldar: Multiple Competitive builds.

Middle tier (one core competitive list with variation): Mechanicus Tau Grey Knights Tyranids Daemons Orks Necrons dark angels Space Wolves

Low Tier (no lists that center around them, only supplemental): blood angels, guard, dark Eldar, harlequins, knights, assassins, inquisition, chaos marines, Khorne Daemonkin

Orks are in and solidly better than most middle tier armies, in that they have one core list (green tide) but with more variation than most mid tier armies, like tau or yes, Necrons, do.

That is the reality of the competitive scene at the moment. I know everyone likes to believe orks are useless but that is simply not reality.

Necrons only middle tier? Uh, nah bro. This list is messed up in a few ways.

On topic, Orks are like Tyranids. In a casual setting, most of their stuff is meh and other armies can do it better, or at least just as good. In a competitive setting, they can be devastating, but only because they have 1-2 builds that really work, and that's it. You utilize maybe 1/8th of the codex.

I was ranking the armies based on how many separate builds they have that can really work on a top competitive level. (I mean cores to the build as most competitive builds will have around 1000ish points where you basically make no decisions then you can play around).

Orks have two. Green tide, big Bosspole Warboss, CAD with Dok, and Bully Boyz+Blitz Brigade. Beyond that there are a few wild cards like Stompa/Squiggoth builds, Trukk spam etc but you see mostly green tide in top tables.

Necrons have decurion backed up by a Deathstar. That's roughly the same amount or less variation.

In terms of "power" it's hard to rank due to how different the formats are for each big tournament. In wild Wild West 40k, the power of Eldar is increased but the power of Space Marines are lessened. There are no high level tourneys that allow stuff like unlimited detachments or unbound so who knows.

At any level it's clear they're near or at the top of the predecurion dexes, and they have solid answers to many post decurion builds.

Solid codex that nobody seems to give credit to.
Most are stuck in the past crying over being "underpowered".

Lower Mid I think

i have played nearly every combination of Ork armies and all of them tend to do ok. I even did an entire army with only flamers (minus 2 units of grots) and i almost won.

I think Orks are solidly upper middle tier. The big thing is that Orks, unlike many armies, have so many variable builds that its hard to really pinpoint them down compared to more one-dimensional armies like Imperial Guard or CSM. If Orks are good at one thing, its saturating the table with threats that force the opponent to actually think on what to shoot and often psychologically feths them over when more things get across then they planned. We have MANZ missiles, we have Snikrot's Kommandos, we have roving deffkoptas and a high chance of mass infiltrating with the finkin' cap, the battlewagon blitz brigade in particular forces the opponent to deal with all the threats in his face at once. Orks can certainly gang up on enemy units the best and I think it fits the army entirely as Orks are not known for their individual prowess but their ability to bully their lessers into submission through numbers both in shooting and assaulting.

It was a tough call between upper and lower mid, but I went for lower in the end. If Eldar, Space Marines and Daemons are top tier then that would put Necrons and Knights at the bottom of top tier and Tau/Tyranids in upper-mid (Pentyrant is actually a top-tier build, but the codex is bottom-tier with any other build so...). That would put all the non-vanilla marines, Deldar, orks and Sisters in lower-mid and CSM and Imperial Guard in bottom-tier. That's a pretty accurate tiering, imo.

The thing about Orks is that they're basically counter-meta. Green Tide+ Void-shield generators throws a wrench in most of high-meta builds, but it isn't strong enough to actually let ork players take GT's. So they're a fairly decent knock-out faction, but that's about it.