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I'm trying and trying but I just can't see how this doesn't make gunlines outrageously broken. I know someone is going to say that there are objectives with the new scenarios, but what's stopping armies from loading up on artillery and ranged weapons, blowing scoring units off the board for four turns, then jumping some cheap unit with a standard on an objective?

Unless there's something really cool with the scenarios or the "hit" result on the artillery dice is gone, I can't see how this is playtested at all.

Also what's the point of percentages now? It looks like it's actually EASIER now to spam the better units and overloaded Lord characters are encouraged instead of a cheaper amount of heroes. Seriously this has the stink of Matt Ward all over it.

Slots gone? Limited purchases with only Special & Rare? Hello, Night Goblin army w/ 1000pts in characters. I'll take my 8 Goblin Big Bosses, obligatory Orc BSB w/ the Spirit Totem, 4-5 Goblin Warbosses, and a Goblin Great Shaman or two for Dispel Dice & bonuses.

Can you see a pair of Night Goblin units lead by Heroes through the whole of the front rank? Attacks will need to be rolled individually against the Night Gobbos before any casualties can be drawn, and limited to only 2 wounds per model dedicated against Suddenly, armies with cheap characters got a small leg-up: Sure, they're crap characters, but they're still (usually) at least slightly better than another army's RnF.

Good god I hope that percentages don't actually come to being.

Assuming we are aloud to link to other forums:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259481

I cant remember if that rule was for this forum or that one. Either way, looks like this guy is yet another to see them and confirm. I like most of them myself.

The more I read about 8th the more excited I am. Granted I play dwarves and ogres and all the changes seem to be a good boost for me so I might be slightly biased. Add in the lowering of the magic craziness and even w/50% characters i'm totally down for this edition.

Id keep in mind that "demo" games often leave out like half of the actual rules. The person running the demos have maybe played the new rules twice

Generating Power and Dispel Dice
# [*]Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The amount of dice is decided by 2D6. The active player gets the total as power dice and the other player the highest throw as dispel dice (throw 3+5, = 8 PD and 5 DD). (confirmed)


Channeling (confirmed that it exists)
# [*]Each wizard may roll a D6 and generate an additional power dice on a roll of 6.
[*]Each enemy wizard may roll a D6 and generate an additional dispel dice on a roll of 6.
[*]You may not channel while fleeing, off the board or when you suffer from stupidity..


Maximum Power and Dispel Dice
# [*]The maximum number of power or dispel dice you may have at any time is 12. This includes any power/dispel dice generated by special rules, spells and/or magic items.


Casting Spells
# [*]To cast a spell, roll 1 to 6 Power dice and add your caster's power level. EG: A Slann casts fireball and uses 2D6. He rolls a 3 and a 4 - score of 7. He than adds his Power Level of 4, which results in a total roll of 11.


Miscasting
Here is where I think we need a lot more information.
# [*]It is rumoured that miscasts are entirely gone, but are replaced by a combined irresistible force/ miscast table effectively:

[*]When you roll a double 6 the spell is cast with irresistible force, but the Caster has to roll on the "lost control" chart, which is devastating, and far more worse than the current miscast table.


Lost Control Chart
# Roll of 1: This has been confirmed as being even worse than number 4… Which (pure speculation) may involve every model in the unit taking a hit, this was something I actually heard a while back, but it could be worse than this.

Roll of 4: The wizard is sucked into the warp and the large template is centred over him. S10 hits for something (could be the centre model, meaning S5 for the rest?).

So where does this leave Kroak?

He generates 4 power dice that goes directly to the pool, overruling the rule above for generating extra dice on a 6+.

If they think that I am ever going to cast the 3rd or 4th power level and the need to roll 4-6 dice with the chance for a double 1 and now even worse a double 6 for his spell then the guy who wrote the rules is insane.
The 2nd level spell will be great, cast it 3-4 times per spell for a 12 inch circle of destruction.

I think they have taken an appropriately priced character borderline completely useless, except when he bolts to the middle of the enemy line and drops 3-4 nukes per turn on the enemy units there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why do they keep trying to make spell casting so damned dangerous, but leave the spam casting of VCs (where all the problems with the current magic phase arose) alone?

FlammingGaunt wrote:Good god I hope that percentages don't actually come to being.

Same here!

If these rumors become true i will just quit fantasy and go back to 40k or play 7th ed rules...

I have a feeling they will adjust the casting levels of most VC spells to 10+, which will take more power dice and increses the chances of Loss of Control, or not being able to cast for a turn.

% are 100% definitely in.

I think the date for the rumor listed under the "more reliable" section on the first page, about when GW stores will start running demo/intro games for the new fantasy rules, is off.

It says May 22nd, but I talked to the manager at the Bunker here yesterday, and he said he was expecting to start running them around mid-June (so still about a month off, give or take).

They were running games elsewhere in the world yesterday. Lots of information up in the link from GMM's post.

Grimstonefire wrote:

% are 100% definitely in.

Alright

Any news on not being able to take 2 of the same rares being true yet?.

I think the percentages and slot system rumours that we've heard of are still a bit uncertain. It might be that the slots still exist but the percentages are just an additional form of control. It would force some things out of the game especially at lower points limits and some ridiculously large death star units even at larger limits.

If however the slots are gone and only replaced by percentages, don't panic. Warhammer is already regulated by piles and piles of house rules and composition restrictions and I doubt there's many tournaments that want to see 10 Empire Mortars in 3000 pts games (exactly 25% special), and would just use the same old blanket 'no double rares or triple specials' rule as many times before.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the movement. If wheeling is gone the first implication to me is that along with the other massive changes infantry will be king. That's fine. However, marching with a simple LD test and having the same mobility as fast cavalry now means that it will be nearly impossible to 'box in' someone to an inevitable death by front and flank charges since the target will just wiggle and fudge away from the charge arcs with 10" march movement. Imagine two infantry blocks facing eachother 1" away. If the unit whose turn it is doesn't want combat, it can take an LD test and just move the entire block to the other unit's flank. That's a maneouvre that would've required like 40" movement before. The other unit can't charge, it can only move wherever it desires and then the other unit can again wiggle away if it wants to. We'll just have to wait and see the actual rules since I doubt movement can be that simplified. It simply won't work. In 40K every unit has 360' line of sight so a very simple movement system suffices. It won't in Warhammer.


EDIT:

This just in from The Warhammer Forum, regarding the slots and percentages:

manicpsychotic wrote:Apparently there is a limit of 3 max specials/2 rares of any one type at 2000pts and then it goes up to 4/3 at 3000pts or something. So in the current game 3 mortars, 3 cannons and 2 rocket batteries would be the limit. Rumoured longer possible charge ranges and extra move for fast cavalry before the game starts make gun lines risky without plenty of troops to support them.

I'm pretty sure the game will turn out great.

woah thats scary therion..

Two questions on that:
1) Does that, at all, effect the whole "No slots stated for characters" bit? I mean, how many Skaven Chieftans or Empire Captains could someone fit in 25% of a 2K point game?
2) How does the "no more than three special choices / two special choices alike" affect things like "Two Bolt Throwers for a Single Special Choice". Does this mean no more than Six Bolt Throwers (three slots)? Or no more than Three Bolt Throwers (since slots are gone in that rumor)?

Minsc wrote:Two questions on that:
1) Does that, at all, effect the whole "No slots stated for characters" bit? I mean, how many Skaven Chieftans or Empire Captains could someone fit in 25% of a 2K point game?

At 2k, that's 11 naked Chieftains. More importantly, that's 33 naked Warlock Engineers(or 33 US1[ie. don't cause Panic when they flee] Charge Blockers for your entire army). Or 7 Lvl 1 Warlock Engineers(we've been playing this game for weeks on UnderEmpire).

I'd be more worried about the Chieftains: Just five of them forming the front of a unit is some 15 attacks before the second rank with WS and S to boot - 15 S5 Halberd attacks (They can still take halberds, yes?) is nothing to be scoffed at, nor making the enemy have to allocate pretty much all their attacks individually.

Minsc wrote:I'd be more worried about the Chieftains: Just five of them forming the front of a unit is some 15 attacks before the second rank with WS and S to boot - 15 S5 Halberd attacks (They can still take halberds, yes?) is nothing to be scoffed at, nor making the enemy have to allocate pretty much all their attacks individually.

No doubt.

All around, there's some sneaky tactics armies with cheap characters and no slots will produce.

Platuan4th wrote:No doubt.

All around, there's some sneaky tactics armies with cheap characters and no slots will produce.

Pretty much. This also isn't counting that supposedly there's going to be some 40-80ish common magic items available to characters from the new Big Book, which could possibly turn character-spam into even more cheese.

The way I expect them to counter this (for O&G, anyways) is an increase in statlines with raised cost to boot. Skaven will probably be amongst the last guard for that, but even so that's not something good to consider (who here doesn't see at least one combination in the 40-80-some options that, while fine or meh on their own, is going to become pure evil when combined with six or seven other items in the list?). No-slot no-limit heroes will be, well, disgusting.

Hmmm...

2 beastlords, each kitted out, each around 250 worth of points.

4 Wargors, each kitted out with gear, 130 or so each.

Each accompanying a bestigor or Gor block.

Oh, I'm starting to like this edition.

Updated the first post, with the info from saturday.

@Minsc

I don't know whether the 'no more than 2 or 3 of the same' thing relates to 2 for 1. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that 2 for 1 are entirely gone. The only restriction outside of % and 2 or 3 of the same now as far as I know is tha the units with 'do not count towards minimum core number of units required', will be replaced with 'do not count towards the minumum core % required'.

All I can think about is 16 Ironguts w/standard, BS, and Lord. Go for the Ogre Horde!!!!! And they average a 12"+ charge. Love it!

Not that this would be incredibly efficient but it would be fun!

So does this mean in a 2250 point game i can run 3 hydras and 1 dragonlord ? oh god

Considering the missions don't have victory points or kill points and only core units with banners are scoring, you might want to invest in some of those said scoring units if you intend to win any games. I'm not sure monsters and cavalry are as necessary as they are now. Infantry will be nearly as fast as heavy cavalry and monsters have been and almost as mobile as skirmishers and fast cavalry have been and on top of it all they're scoring. Additionally, monsters and small cavalry hammers can't break anything with frontal charges since everything will be stubborn against them. Finally if the infantry unit in the receiving end of a charge is an elite unit, it will even strike first because of high initiative.

The thing is, with O&G they're only investing some 480pts in War Machines assuming they can take six bolt throwers: If only three, that's 375. Since characters would probably be only about 800-900, that's still about 600-800 in Core - three big blocks of NG's with fanatics and nets. Which, quite frankly, need the characters anyways to have any chance of winning HtH what with being O&G's.

EDIT: Just went through the page 1 updates.

As said earlier, 50% possible for characters does very little to limit Hero Hammer. Yeah, you won't see a Chaos Sorceror Lord w/ 3 jacked up Hero Characters. You'll see two. Amazing change. The difference now is, instead of rushing characters out on Monstrous Mounts, now they'll be used en-masse in regiments.

Single models have 90° LoS is so-so for me, as it makes some models (Warpstone Star Assassins, for instance) even less useful. Further encouragement of putting characters in units at all times?

Fast Cavalry is allowed to get closer, nice. I guess it'll help them with War Machine hunting, since that's all they're really good for now (especially if they go to 45° LoS as well).

I can't think of many people who are going to use Skirmishers with these changes. Let's see, what can Skirmishers do:
1) See 360° (how many have ranged weapons of sufficient range to help with this?).
2) +1 CR and Stubborn in Woods (Woo, they have an amazing static CR1 and Stubborn 7 or 8 in woods! They can hold the enemy up for an amazing two turns before being slaughtered!).
3) A chance to buy GW's special new bases that'll probably be released.

And... that's it!

A 5" template at S10 for an Irresistible Force? Really? Why should I focus on magic again? Oh, wait, the 3" Template over 30" that can kill 66% of all Gors, Undead, Orcs, and Ogres that it touches instantaneously. That's why.

Salvo Fire, I guess, could be sorta handy for a few shooty units. Funnily enough, not those who are asking for extra shots (Gobbos and Orc Arrer Boyz).

Breath Weapons once / game, that'll limit the effectiveness of some units. Guess they need something to prevent Hydras from becoming pure evil with +2D6 attacks, at least.

Stubborn Units can use a character's leadership within 12", are you ready to watch units benefitting from a short Ld10 character in the back of the field?

Portable towers... I'm sure this means something is going to change with the building rules.

Keep in mind that some HQs count as Lord AND Hero choice, so they count vs. both 25% limits.
And the GW person was very explicit that the Wizard level is added to the 2d6 roll.
And he was explicit about the 45o arc of sight for skirmishers.

Welp time to sell my Wood Elf army since skirmishers have no place in Fantasy for four years until 9th edition (maybe) and I don't feel like buying tons of Glade Guard which seem like the only useful unit come July.

Therion wrote: only core units with banners are scoring

I've only seen a requirement to have a banner, not to be Core.

Ixquic wrote:Welp time to sell my Wood Elf army since skirmishers have no place in Fantasy for four years until 9th edition (maybe) and I don't feel like buying tons of Glade Guard which seem like the only useful unit come July.

Perfect example of the opportunity that a new edition brings.

Lots of armies on ebay!

skyth wrote:

Therion wrote: only core units with banners are scoring

I've only seen a requirement to have a banner, not to be Core.

How reliable is this banner rumor? Over on the warseer post (linked above by MM) I don't see that mentioned. As a wood elf player running lots of forest spirits (no banners) I hope it's not true!

Also, to the wood elf player above- don't go! There will be erratas for each army, etc- I'm sure wood elves will still be competitive in some respects. They've always been a minor win / draw often army, and I don't see that changing with objectives and the like, even if we won't benefit much from the rank bonuses. We have excellent core, so those requirements don't hurt us at all, like they do other armies. Stick around and see what it's like before jumping ship

A lot of people will be buying fantasy armies after the new rules come out, so you might as well wait, anyway!