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Don´t mean to be a jerk but Melissia sounds like a girl name to me ( considering is her real name, which I ignore. I have a spanish girl friend called like that).

On the other hand I don´t see why SW should be dumber than, say, BT, whose views about life are even more simple.

. . . or GK, for that matter. But we mau be getting too far afield.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether [...] it [...] appealed to you.

Overall, it doesn't.

I don't really like superhuman supersoldiers in science fiction. I prefer to see humans struggling against monstrous, superhuman enemies. To me, 40k is encapsulated by the image of Imperial Guard fighting a relentless, unending battle against Orks. That is what defines 40k for me. Space Marines are unimportant.

Sorry, but why do you seem to like Grey Knights?

They are the single most powerful single creatures in the entire WH universe sans some super nids and gods.

They are to Space Marines as Space Marines are to IG.

I'm just curious as to why a subject (such as the Orks) can't be both hilarious and incredibly frightening at the same time. Ever seen Dr. Strangelove? That's what we call "black humor." Orks are absolutely this. They speak in an accent that, to an American, sounds ridiculous and silly. They do funny things like get distracted and replace an arm with bioniks... when you'd really needed a leg replaced. They use tiny goblins as minesweepers. They shoot tiny goblins through holes in hell into your armor, where they start scratching, clawing, and defecating uncontrollably. Sometimes the gun they use to do that feths up and fires the Ork instead of the tiny goblins. They are seriously hilarious.

But at the same time, they sweep through a system and kill every inhabitant of a given planet just 'cause it's fun. They wage wars that see billions dead 'cause they're just looking for a good fight. They're eight feet tall, weigh about five times as much as you do, carry axes as big as your torso, and will happily apply said axe to your torso all the while laughing merrily, because damnit, killin' people is just that much fun. If you kill them, ten more will rise from the ground that corpse hit in a year or so. They are seriously terrifying.

Why do hilarity and horror have to be mutually exclusive?

Orks are laughably terrifying. That's why I love them as much as I do. If they removed the grimdark, or they removed the humor, Orks would no longer be Orks, and I'd never play them again.

Edit: Also, a fine analysis of Codex: SM, which I applaud. That's three points for me so far.

Eldar are next.

Spot-on, St Hazard, much like your predictions!

I think Ork "accent" is supposed to be northern (rural) Scottish or English ghetto. I met once in London a guy from some isolated village of Scotland and I swear to god i couldn´t understand half of what he was saying ( as some of the english natives I was partying with, apparently).

Manchu wrote:Well said, Seaward. But what exactly do you mean by Germanic?

Basically I mean there's really nothing specifically "Viking" about them save for the (first) names. Despite that, they've gotten tagged as the "Space Viking" chapter, whereas I think they could've been just as good as a sort of catch-all for the entire diaspora of "barbarians" from that time frame; their traditions and philosophies and such aren't by any means Viking-specific, and would work for Germanic, Frankish, Gallic, and even probably Celtic influences. So, just as Ultramarines are Roman-inspired, Black Templars are Crusades-inspired, Blood Angels are Renaissance Italy-inspired, etc., Space Wolves could've been a little more generally "European pagan"-inspired rather than so specifically Viking-inspired.

Just a pet peeve, really, not a major issue. I'd be much more interested in them if they had some Germanic, Celtic, or even Frankish elements to them.

Seaward wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well said, Seaward. But what exactly do you mean by Germanic?

Basically I mean there's really nothing specifically "Viking" about them save for the (first) names. Despite that, they've gotten tagged as the "Space Viking" chapter, whereas I think they could've been just as good as a sort of catch-all for the entire diaspora of "barbarians" from that time frame; their traditions and philosophies and such aren't by any means Viking-specific, and would work for Germanic, Frankish, Gallic, and even probably Celtic influences. So, just as Ultramarines are Roman-inspired, Black Templars are Crusades-inspired, Blood Angels are Renaissance Italy-inspired, etc., Space Wolves could've been a little more generally "European pagan"-inspired rather than so specifically Viking-inspired.

Just a pet peeve, really, not a major issue. I'd be much more interested in them if they had some Germanic, Celtic, or even Frankish elements to them.

That's what I was trying to say! But my mouth hole couldn't properly bring my mind excrement to fruition!

Namica wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Manchu wrote:Well said, Seaward. But what exactly do you mean by Germanic?

Basically I mean there's really nothing specifically "Viking" about them save for the (first) names. Despite that, they've gotten tagged as the "Space Viking" chapter, whereas I think they could've been just as good as a sort of catch-all for the entire diaspora of "barbarians" from that time frame; their traditions and philosophies and such aren't by any means Viking-specific, and would work for Germanic, Frankish, Gallic, and even probably Celtic influences. So, just as Ultramarines are Roman-inspired, Black Templars are Crusades-inspired, Blood Angels are Renaissance Italy-inspired, etc., Space Wolves could've been a little more generally "European pagan"-inspired rather than so specifically Viking-inspired.

Just a pet peeve, really, not a major issue. I'd be much more interested in them if they had some Germanic, Celtic, or even Frankish elements to them.

That's what I was trying to say! But my mouth hole couldn't properly bring my mind excrement to fruition!

Lol. Are you human?
do you mind if i put that in my signature?

I agree to some extent. But I wouldn't want them to start looking more like Circle Orboros.

Oh wait . . .

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/wolf-lord-morraig

NOOOOO!

Namica wrote:
That's what I was trying to say! But my mouth hole couldn't properly bring my mind excrement to fruition!

Glad I could help.

What I said above aside, I suppose there's technically nothing in the fluff that says there couldn't be a runty little tribe in the south of Fenris that's more Gallic or Celtic or Germanic or whatever than Nordic that simply doesn't get recruited from as often.

Hell, I may just start a SW company and go with that notion.

Namica wrote:Sorry, but why do you seem to like Grey Knights?

Because I feel that Grey Knights are, out of the various Space Marines, the ones that are done the best.

Currently, I collect (in order of my starting to collect models, rather than playing them): Orks, Guard, Sisters. I plan on collecting (again in order of actually collecting hte models) Eldar and Tau next. Well, maybe not Tau. I kinda want to, and yet, I just don't feel a very strong pull to them. After that, it's Grey Knights.

Flaming_Spider wrote:But why give them ridiculous accents if it's not meant to be funny? Nobody else has that. The other races have their own languages that sound excellent, not garbled English.

I don't think you can ever take issue with English being spoken in stories. Every story from 'Star Wars' to '300' has examples of characters speaking English when they shouldn't. It is not something that should be accepted as real, it's just there for your convenience.

No one in the 40k universe speaks English, not even humans. Everything you read or hear is a translation. Orks are depicted as brutish and uncouth, the speech pattern they use is just a story telling device. I personally feel it works quite well. The idea of a big ignorant Ork speaking elegantly with perfect grammar, feels unnatural even in their own language (Most Humans can't manage it either). YMMV of course.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:I just wanted to really hear your take on the basic concept, and whether [...] it [...] appealed to you.

Overall, it doesn't.

I don't really like superhuman supersoldiers in science fiction. I prefer to see humans struggling against monstrous, superhuman enemies. To me, 40k is encapsulated by the image of Imperial Guard fighting a relentless, unending battle against Orks. That is what defines 40k for me. Space Marines are unimportant.

For me Space Marines still qualify as humans struggling against super human enemies; If the humans need two hearts and power armour to even the playing field, then all the better. Personally I think it's the imperial guard that never fitted into 40k. Perhaps because; I see them as being too close to a 20th century army. I also find it anticlimaxical, that in this epic story or Heroes and Monsters and Daemons... Everyone gets owned by a faceless mass of very un-heroic looking grunts, with flash lights and tanks.

It probably doesn't help that IG has always been one of the cheese armies in 40k, as has Space Wolves. I was disappointed SW finished higher than BA for that reason. I agree with pretty much all of what you said about Codex SM, but that does make me wonder why it only came in 5th? I think out of all my books, it is one of the ones I flick through and enjoy the most.

Manchu wrote:I agree to some extent. But I wouldn't want them to start looking more like Circle Orboros.

Oh wait . . .

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/wolf-lord-morraig

NOOOOO!

Holy crap is that one cool looking figure. He is everything Canis whishes he was. I wanna see a parts breakdown. If the rider is separate, thats a total win for a Wolf Lord on TW mount.

SmackCakes wrote:For me Space Marines still qualify as humans struggling against super human enemies; If the humans need two hearts and power armour to even the playing field, then all the better. Personally I think it's the imperial guard that never fitted into 40k. Perhaps because; I see them as being too close to a 20th century army. I also find it anticlimaxical, that in this epic story or Heroes and Monsters and Daemons... Everyone gets owned by a faceless mass of very un-heroic looking grunts, with flash lights and tanks.

It's completely logical to have a fighting force like the Imperial Guard exist in such an environment as the 40K universe from the way I see things. I feel that without the Guard and even more so without the PDF more of Imperial space wouldn't still be under Imperial control.

For me Space Marines still qualify as humans

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

At all.

Space Marines aren't human anymore. They're living weapons. They don't participate in human society in any way, shape, or form, save to kill humanity's enemies. They aren't human biologically speaking, arguably they aren't human genetically speaking, and even psychologically speaking they're alien to us.

I would go so far as to say Marines are Homo Sapiens Astartes, while humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens.



Also, the Imperial Guard is FAR more heroic than the Astartes in my eyes. Why? Simple. The most basic definition of bravery, even amongst the Imperium (as shown by Amberley Vail's discussion of Ciaphas Cain at the beginning of the Cain omnibus) is confronting and overcoming fear. Humans, common humans and not Astartes, feel fear, and this must be overcome in order to destroy our enemies. So that means the Guard, the Sisters, and the Inquisition are the truly brave members of the Imperium... along with the other aspects taht aren't given an army, but Astartes? They're a weapon. They don't feel fear. Concepts of "bravery" as we know them don't really apply to them. Bravery is a very important part of being a "hero". Overcoming challenges is another-- and killing a Carnifex is a far greater challenge for Guardsmen than it is for Astartes. That the Guardsmen are in a tank doesn't matter much, considering the Carnifex can take shots from said tank and keep going, then tear the tank apart or crush it with the crew still inside.

Melissia wrote:Space Marines aren't human anymore. They're living weapons. They don't participate in human society in any way, shape, or form, save to kill humanity's enemies.

Salamanders.

Melissia wrote:I would go so far as to say Marines are Homo Sapiens Astartes, while humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

And that is not how taxonomy works, Melissia.

I think SM have certainly "lost" or "transcended" some of their humanity, depending on your viewpoint. For "theological" purposes, however, they are still very much human. Remember that the inhumanity of Space Marines compared to normal humans is nowhere near so yawning a chasm as the inhumanity of daemons and xenos compared to any humans, including Space Marines. Let's not confuse "humanity" with being a member of the human species here.

Regarding fear: Astartes "know no fear" in the sense that they do not fear physical injury even unto death. Do they know other fears? Sure. And no Astarte is born without fear, either. The struggle to become a Space Marine is, I am sure, rife with fear. A Space Marine Scout is already a greater hero than 99% of Guardsman can even dream of becoming.


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Jayden63 wrote:He is everything Canis whishes he was. I wanna see a parts breakdown. If the rider is separate, thats a total win for a Wolf Lord on TW mount.

Someone has tried something like that. It came out . . . well, you be the judge:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_htwvK3s_n0I/S3660z6AgnI/AAAAAAAAAuA/84Sey1y0FNs/s320/0003.jpg

Manchu wrote:I agree to some extent. But I wouldn't want them to start looking more like Circle Orboros.

Oh wait . . .

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/wolf-lord-morraig

NOOOOO!

Looks like Lukas the Trickster on an even crappier-looking wolf than Canis's wolf.

The only "nonhuman humans" in the game would have to be Grey Knights. Not only are they put through more and augmented more than humans, they also have no past, which gets rid of the thing that makes Space Marines human. They were in effect "born" as full grown adult who are are the most powerful weapons the imperium has. They are more living weapon than person, unlike SPace Marines who have on many occasions shown their humanity in some way shape or form (Salamanders are a splendid example of this, as are Space Wolves)

You know, with all this 'fluff hate' going on, you could make your own fluff. Dont like silly Orks? Make serious ones.

I like the idea of Eldar being space ninja's.

As do I. Psychic ninja elves from space.

Sounds so OTT that it's actually kinda cool.

SaintHazard wrote:I'm just curious as to why a subject (such as the Orks) can't be both hilarious and incredibly frightening at the same time. Ever seen Dr. Strangelove? That's what we call "black humor." Orks are absolutely this. They speak in an accent that, to an American, sounds ridiculous and silly. They do funny things like get distracted and replace an arm with bioniks... when you'd really needed a leg replaced. They use tiny goblins as minesweepers. They shoot tiny goblins through holes in hell into your armor, where they start scratching, clawing, and defecating uncontrollably. Sometimes the gun they use to do that feths up and fires the Ork instead of the tiny goblins. They are seriously hilarious.

But at the same time, they sweep through a system and kill every inhabitant of a given planet just 'cause it's fun. They wage wars that see billions dead 'cause they're just looking for a good fight. They're eight feet tall, weigh about five times as much as you do, carry axes as big as your torso, and will happily apply said axe to your torso all the while laughing merrily, because damnit, killin' people is just that much fun. If you kill them, ten more will rise from the ground that corpse hit in a year or so. They are seriously terrifying.

Why do hilarity and horror have to be mutually exclusive?

Orks are laughably terrifying. That's why I love them as much as I do. If they removed the grimdark, or they removed the humor, Orks would no longer be Orks, and I'd never play them again.

Edit: Also, a fine analysis of Codex: SM, which I applaud. That's three points for me so far.

Eldar are next.

Agreed. Just because something is intended as funny doesn't mean it can't be intimidating or even terrifying too.
Allow me to present an example; the "Pencil Trick" scene from the Dark Knight. A lot of people found that to be very funny, and rightly so - the absurdity of the Joker's dialogue and appearance makes it comical. But, when you think about what just happened, and how grotesque it actually is, whilst watching Heath Ledger leer and giggle as he slams a man's head into a pencil that drives up through his eye-socket and into his brain, you realise that, actually, that was horrible.
It's the same with Orks. Yes, they talk funny and their wackier weapons are improbable at best, but it has to be remembered that the average Ork Boy is about 2 metres tall (6ft 7in) and massively muscled. Their fearsome metabolism means that things that would kill a human are often a moderate irritation to them, and they are not afraid of dying in battle or indeed dying at all, lending them a suicidal bravado and reckless battle-lust that to humans is utterly alien and terrifying. Their machines are hulking masses of armour and guns, so heavy (in some cases) that they shake the earth as they charge towards you with the intent of crushing you under their treads before gunning down any survivors.
So yeah, Orks can be scary as well as funny.

Now I'll wait for the next one.

Manchu wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:He is everything Canis whishes he was. I wanna see a parts breakdown. If the rider is separate, thats a total win for a Wolf Lord on TW mount.

Someone has tried something like that. It came out . . . well, you be the judge:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_htwvK3s_n0I/S3660z6AgnI/AAAAAAAAAuA/84Sey1y0FNs/s320/0003.jpg

Thats the same wolf? Wow, paintjob really does makes the model. Too small.

It can't possibly be the same wolf. Look at the position of the legs in both pictures.

The idea of space marines in all that armour riding a wolf is just.. stupid IMO. But I think Melissia covered that already.

Edit: Friend of mine collects SW. I found these wolves in case he ever wants to make that abomination of a wolf squad...
http://mythicast.com/?page_id=4#ecwid:category=0&mode=product&product=1220553

OoieGoie wrote:The idea of space marines in all that armour riding a wolf is just.. stupid IMO. But I think Melissia covered that already.

Edit: Friend of mine collects SW. I found these wolves in case he ever wants to make that abomination of a wolf squad...
http://mythicast.com/?page_id=4#ecwid:category=0&mode=product&product=1220553

I've got some of those waiting for me at the post office. I love the idea of TWC, it's just far too over the top for me not to love it. The only way TWC could be more awesome if they breathed fire and gak grenades. If you disagree with me you're a boring old fogey who eats hard candy.

@Chongara: I received a pack of these last week. They are lovely.

SaintHazard wrote:It can't possibly be the same wolf. Look at the position of the legs in both pictures.

No, they aren't the same but they are from the same line.

Manchu wrote:@Chongara: I received a pack of these last week.

Yeah, those were the other option I was seriously considering. They defiantly look higher quality and more detailed than the mythicast ones. The bionics are also much better. However, I didn't like the horse style Bit & Bridle and wanted something that rode a bit closer to the ground.

Melissia wrote:The Space Wolves are the most loyal of all chapters aside from the Grey Knights themselves. Despite their misgivings, the Ecclesiarchy would have a hard time supporting a protracted war against the Wolves.

I think Codex Choas Space Marines specifically mention a whole group of Space Wolves betraying their brethren. I thought it was a terrible piece of fluff in a codex with a lot of terrible fluff but there it is.