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I'll admit, the mental image of some Longfangs firing krak missiles into the face of whatever is charging them is pleasing to me, and I hate Space Wolves!

All these rumor slips are giving me a good picture of 6th, and it doesn't sound bad. However, not having the book is sheer torture. Waiting until release day is going to drive me nuts.

I would be happy if the "allied" units worked like IA 11 list for Corsairs. You can have 0-1 of X...depending on your ally status. Provides just enough difference to allow for more variety in lists (at least until Mathammer wins out).

TheKbob wrote:
How about anyone partnered with Necrons?

Prob not happen, but Tau + Necrons... Necrons make it nightfighting, Tau see through it easy...

Or Necrons with highly shooty armies and you use a death+despair squad and a triarch stalker.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/456552.page#4422083

You say Tau and Necrons?

protomane0 wrote:just speculating, perhaps if your unit has frag grenades (or an equivalent) then they dissalow the charged unit from making a snap shot, would make sense as it would force the guys to get away from the ball of explosive death opposed to popping off shots. just speculating of course and I doubt it will happen, wonder if frag grenades will play the same role or if thye have changed a bit. suppose we'll see soon

The problem is that almost every single Imperial unit, from humble Guardsmen to Stormtrooper and Sister to Space Marine has Frag grenades as basic equipment, and that would basically make snapshot pointless except against Terminators, Walkers and...most Xenos armies

Thus, we get issues of over-prevalence and imbalance.

What really concerns me is all the rumors point to shooting becoming even more deadly. Which shifts the balance even further away from assault being a viable way of running an army. GK and IG are already blowing assault armies off the table, and now with random charges, snap fire, rapid fire buffs... I have every right to be concerned about how the hundreds of dollars I've spent on Orks and Wych DE is going to perform.

I wouldnt say ALL the rumors benefit shooting...

What about flying vehicles moving fast only getting hit on 6's from shooting?

What about the rumor that jump infantry get a free I10 hit when they charge in?

Those dont benefit shooting, and I'm sure there will be plenty more once the rules are all known

Goresaw wrote:What really concerns me is all the rumors point to shooting becoming even more deadly. Which shifts the balance even further away from assault being a viable way of running an army. GK and IG are already blowing assault armies off the table, and now with random charges, snap fire, rapid fire buffs... I have every right to be concerned about how the hundreds of dollars I've spent on Orks and Wych DE is going to perform.

I get the opposite feeling. The rumors, to me, point to assault being more unavoidable and thus more deadly. If winged MC's are getting a 24" move, then they can be put into position to strike an enemy weak spot on turn 2 with little reprocusion.

Flyers getting hit on 6's from shooting will make it that much more difficult for enemies to stop flying transports from delivering their assault payload. It will be much easier for a Stormraven to get the talented furioso into the enemy lines. Necrons can deliver 10 Lytchguard and Oberon into the enemy lines on turn 2 veil to the embarked Zandreth on a Nightscythe. It will take 6's to hit the scythe to prevent this. Not an easy thing to stop.

The rumors point to winged MC's moving up to 24" and fast moving flyers only getting hit on 6's. Both units can deliver an assault faster and more reliably then what we can do now. Assault is looking good right now.

BladeWalker wrote:

Therion wrote:

up to four HQ with allies.

So... Fateweaver, Bloodthirster, 2 CSM Princes and then 3 Daemon Princes in Heavy.

Let's do this.

Thought of a joke:

Mephiston, Sanguinor and Obyron teleport into a bar...

Tyranids have always been traditionally sans allies. It just doesn't fit in with the fluff. The closest you would get would be a genestealer cult infiltrating and corrupting imperial forces but by the time the Hive Fleet proper arrives its more nom nom burp next planet.....

Im quite excited by some of the rumours above. Sounds like a decent shake up and the buffs for Tyranids could 'gasp' make them a viable force again?

That said i am a little concerned that if the allies arent restricted in some way then there could be some not much fun WAAC games ahead....

I've always thought of the allies rules as a way to just sell you more models. Then they will become freakishly unbalanced and be dissalowed, but by then you've already bought your allied models, so GW wins.

That aside, I would be willing to sacrafice a few local gamers to appease the Chaos Gods if GW would bring back a legal Genestealer Cult army that wasn't "counts as".

Allies is a HUGE ploy to buy extra models. Look at some armies like Tau who haven't had new models to buy for years, for example. Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy a HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army. Depending on who I choose thats going to be roughly $90. And if I really want to get the good units, I would have to invest even more money which doesn't make me happy.

Secondly this is easily a ploy for people running only one army to buy and build another army. I have a lot of friends who only started collecting another army after getting some of their units. So people who buy this HQ and troops may be likely to go ahead and invest in the entire army as well. This sounds like conspiracy, but I have seen about 10 people at my local gaming store end up with two armies in this fashion.

The idea of Allies honestly sucks a lot of the fun out of the game for me. I just hope that there will be some benefit of running a single army with no allies.

the list would be more like this:

1)Black Templars: can ally 1,2,3,4,5,6,78
2)Blood Angels: can ally 1,2,3,4,5,6,78,11
3)Dark Angels: can ally 1,2,3,4,5,6,78,11
4)Grey Knights: can ally1,2,3,4,5,6,78,11
5)Imperial Guard: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, (9, 10 as traitor guard), 11, 14, 15
6)Sisters of Battle: can ally 1,2,3,4,5,6,78,11
7)Space Marines: can ally 1,2,3,4,5,6,78,11
8)Space Wolves: can ally 1,2,3,4,5,6,78,11

Chaos
9)Chaos Daemons: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 10
10)Chaos Space Marines: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 9, 14

Eldar
11)Eldar: can ally 4, 5, 7, 8, 14, 15
12)Dark Eldar: can ally 11(kinship)

Others
13)Necrons: cannot ally

14)Orks: can ally 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 as mercenaries.

15)Tau Empire: can ally 2, 4, 5, 7 (Ultramarines)

16)Tyranids: forever alone

Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.

What are you basing that idea on?

Hey, I know I'm missing something. Why can Tau Ally with Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines, but not the other chapters ?

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.

What are you basing that idea on?

The current rumor that the allies matrix will require you to take an HQ and 1 to 2 troop choices (Another FOC) as previously posted.

Dantalian wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.

What are you basing that idea on?

The current rumor that the allies matrix will require you to take an HQ and 1 to 2 troop choices (Another FOC) as previously posted.

That wasn't really his question. His question was "Why do you need to ally to win?"

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.

What are you basing that idea on?

Every imperial army is benefited by making grey hunters or mech vets its basic troop.

adamsouza wrote:Hey, I know I'm missing something. Why can Tau Ally with Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines, but not the other chapters ?

Well to be fair it's only a theory list. I'm hoping that all armies can ally with each other and the fluff only effects how much you can use from another army.

Iff the allies is true stuff, and i think it is, i think we will see a BIG codex review in this book... things like tau rapid firing from 15", Nids returning to a great nidzilla theme, and space wolves costing 18 points per Grey Hunter...

Anyway, i think Nids should have the allies with something: at least Dark Eldars know how to "control them", and ordo xenos can have lots of ways to control small bands of less inteligent beasts...

I really think Dark Eldars who can not ally with Tau are a piece of sheet... Codex DE state a battle of that type :/

And to sustain the grimdark thing, all factions should have ways to ally all factions... Some times, the enemy of your enemy IS your best friend, and you can never guess who is who...

I mean, Dark Eldars can Ally with necrons to fight nids, Eldar can ally chaos marines to fight xenofobic IG, Space Wolves can ally Khorne Berzerkers to fight Dark Angels...

The "possible ally" thing just make the grimdark becoming a litle more "evil vs good"...

Carnage43 wrote:

Dantalian wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.

What are you basing that idea on?

The current rumor that the allies matrix will require you to take an HQ and 1 to 2 troop choices (Another FOC) as previously posted.

That wasn't really his question. His question was "Why do you need to ally to win?"

I assumed he wasn't asking the stupidly obvious question

I can't think of a single army that can't in some way lesson or eliminate their "weakness" with allies. For Tau this would mean armies that can shoot like Tau AND have insane melee. It's a no brainer that all armies will be a lot stronger with allies in their army, even GK.

FYI theres pictures of the book and the psychic power chart in the other thread page 8.

Dantalian wrote:Allies is a HUGE ploy to buy extra models. Look at some armies like Tau who haven't had new models to buy for years, for example. Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy a HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army. Depending on who I choose thats going to be roughly $90. And if I really want to get the good units, I would have to invest even more money which doesn't make me happy.

Secondly this is easily a ploy for people running only one army to buy and build another army. I have a lot of friends who only started collecting another army after getting some of their units. So people who buy this HQ and troops may be likely to go ahead and invest in the entire army as well. This sounds like conspiracy, but I have seen about 10 people at my local gaming store end up with two armies in this fashion.

The idea of Allies honestly sucks a lot of the fun out of the game for me. I just hope that there will be some benefit of running a single army with no allies.

I think it's a great thing. Obviously GW is trying to encourage us to buy more stuff (though the absolute necessity of it is still in question), but I think this is a great move by GW. Being able to "think outside your codex" is part of what made Apocalypse such a big sales earner for GW (that and not having any limits...and having access to big kits), so it's very fair for them to extend this mindset, however limited it may be, to regular games. From a sales perspective, it also encourages players to take baby steps into making an entirely new army, too - GW knows that most players won't go out and buy whole new armies, but those people now have a reason to at least buy something most months.

I really don't see how that's a conspiracy on GW's part, either; this kind of cross-selling is common in all retail businesses (I work in retail, I see it all the time). IMHO, it's a great sales strategy, and one that I still heartily approve of as a customer.

It might not be a really bad thing for players, either. How long has it been since your codex gained an update, either in rules or in model waves? For my Chaos, there's been little since its codex release. But with an allies system, I can start looking forward to IG and Daemon releases as well (never mind that I already have armies for both of those...but you get my point).

There's about one thing from all this that I wouldn't approve of: 7th edition taking away allies, leaving all those players with half-started armies just begging to be completed. It'd be the Chaos Space Marine/Chaos Daemon codex split net rage all over again

Personally I like the idea of allies, from a New Army Concept. I currently play Imperial Guard and Marines, but I would like to give Tau, Chaos Marines and Necron. I like to play WYSIWYG and hate using proxies. I also cannot afford a whole new army. This would allow me to pick up and try new units and not be bothered by WYSIWYG.

Cheexsta wrote:It might not be a really bad thing for players, either. How long has it been since your codex gained an update, either in rules or in model waves?

So being possibly forced into buying models to meet a new standard is better than not wanting to buy models and waiting for an update? If you really want new models, then buy yourself a new army. I for one truly dislike the other armies in 40k, and thats why I haven't bought another army over the last 12 years. There shouldn't be a rule that makes this choice for you if you are to buy new models or not.

Dantalian wrote:\I assumed he wasn't asking the stupidly obvious question

I can't think of a single army that can't in some way lesson or eliminate their "weakness" with allies. For Tau this would mean armies that can shoot like Tau AND have insane melee. It's a no brainer that all armies will be a lot stronger with allies in their army, even GK.

I'll re-state the question then: What rules are you basing that on?

All we know for sure so far is that armies have the ability to take allies, and that there are some FoC requirements for this. We don't know yet if that is the full story, or if there are other rules that go along with it.

The sky is not falling just yet.

Dantalian wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:It might not be a really bad thing for players, either. How long has it been since your codex gained an update, either in rules or in model waves?

So being possibly forced into buying models to meet a new standard is better than not wanting to buy models and waiting for an update? If you really want new models, then buy yourself a new army. I for one truly dislike the other armies in 40k, and thats why I haven't bought another army over the last 12 years. There shouldn't be a rule that makes this choice for you if you are to buy new models or not.

Insaniak answers this better than I could have.

If this allies system is balanced properly, then you won't need to use them at all. But the option is there, because lets face it, codices will have long gaps between updates. The allies system simply gives everyone an opportunity to make use of something new nearly all the time.

Of course, I'm making just as many assumptions as you are, so I'll leave it at that until the actual rules are in my hands. You may very well be right; the allies system may be broken, to the point where not taking allies might be a huge disadvantage. I'm saying that it's just as likely that they'll just end up as another nice option that you can take or leave.

(For what it's worth, the current rumour is that you'll have a separate FOC for allies, with a minimum of 1 HQ and 1 Troop if you decide to take them. It seems that you might be limited to spending up to 30% of your army's total on allies, too. I can't cite specific sources for this because they're all over the place, though.)

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote:\I assumed he wasn't asking the stupidly obvious question

I can't think of a single army that can't in some way lesson or eliminate their "weakness" with allies. For Tau this would mean armies that can shoot like Tau AND have insane melee. It's a no brainer that all armies will be a lot stronger with allies in their army, even GK.

I'll re-state the question then: What rules are you basing that on?

All we know for sure so far is that armies have the ability to take allies, and that there are some FoC requirements for this. We don't know yet if that is the full story, or if there are other rules that go along with it.

The sky is not falling just yet.

No, but there are some pretty frightening cracks in the ceiling.

ShumaGorath wrote:No, but there are some pretty frightening cracks in the ceiling.

That's one way to look at it. Alternatively, you can consider those 'cracks' to be a peek at some exciting new possibilities.


Think the worst if you like. I prefer to leave the panicking until I know for sure that there is something to panic about.

This sounds quite interesting on one side, since it means I could potentially be able to play the Inquisitional army that I always wanted.

But on the other, it could lead to some real nightmares concerning game balance.

Furthermore, I'm still incredibly irate about random charge distance.