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Hey guys,

So this is geared to the people who play the "top teir" codex's. I have found lately that when I play my necrons against some of my friends armies, it isn't enjoyable for either of us as it is very apparent there is a massive power difference between some codex's. When I play against my mates AdMech I don't feel bad as the crazy amount of rules they have offset the crazy amount of rules I have, and it's an enjoyable game. I was just wondering if this is the same for other people? I'm not talking about power gamers and the like who build super competitive lists 24/7 and go up against the same all the time, I'm talking just casual games against friends. We buy our armies because we love the aesthetic/lore of them, and just want to throw dice around and have some good banter. Its frustrating because I love my crons yet I'm fielding my KDK as my primary army because of this.

Sadly a lot of people do not buy armies because of lore/aesthetics to them. It's easier to win with. People must be plastic toy soldier jocks and will spend lots of money to be so.

Just look at the tourney scene and see how armies change a lot.

Sure you might have that person who played Eldar when they were not good, but fore every player like that you have what 3, 4 5 players who play Eldar now because they are easier to do so and will drop them when another army comes up that is more powerful or easier to play with.



A good example is how many elder players were in 5th edition? How many played Tau? Not many. Only people who loved Eldar played Eldar. People who loved Tau played Tau. When 6th edition came out how many people played Eldar or Tau? Not many. Now when the new Eldar codex came out, how many people started Eldar armies? A lot. No new Tau armies. Then Tau came out. How many people started Tau? A lot. Then came 7th edition. How many people play Eldar? A lot still but not as much as with Tau funny. But a lot of new Necron players though.

It just goes to show you when something new and more "powerful" or "easier to win with" comes out a lot of people will buy them. They will also drop them when the new flavour of the month sort to speak comes out as well.

Some people just need to be Jocks when it comes to toy soldiers. You can almost say they are performance enhancing drugs. Plastic crak. Makes it easier to beat your fellow opponent.

Speaking as a guy that normally plays underpowered armies (CSM and IG), getting half your army removed on T1 and being able to place a safe £500 bet on a total rout by the end of turn 3 is never fun.

There have been occasions where I've done that to my opponent, and it's funny the first time, but when 10 games in a row have been exactly the same gakfest, it's just sad.

I play a bunch of different armies of varying power levels and try and avoid putting high tier stuff against bottomfeeder codecies and visa versa, but sometimes there's just a bad match-up in a tourney and you either try to end it quickly and commiserate your opponent or you try and hold out and go for the win on objectives, depending on which side of the power imbalance you're on.

IMHO there's no fun to be had for either side in a WK/Scat pack vs CSM match, but that's the way the codecies are written and if that's all you've got since you've only got 1 army each, well, it's a case of toning it down if you can or just not having fun/not playing. That's just where the state of the game is. While some people might suggest a points handicap, sometimes there's just no amount of points that's going to suffice. I've watched an 1850 Eldar army wipe the floor with a 2500 BA army in 4 turns and still be at almost full strength.

The only advice is to put top tier against top tier, mid against mid and low against low unless there's a bit of an addity in list building where a high is taking bad units or a low is running as much cheese as they can, in which case high/mid or mid/low can usually have a fairly even game. I certainly don't recall a high/low game in my local ever turning out anything less than a stomping, regardless of how much the high player toned down their list, though you do see the bottomfeeders coming up with a fun against the favoured sons often enough in the batreps both here and other places.

Yea so that was what I was trying to figure out.

Do the majority of players value winning over having fun?

Or visa versa?

Don't get me wrong I like playing games when the gloves come off on both sides and it's an epic brawl (so long as the codex's are even-ish).

Say for example, you went to a GW store and brought an eldar army that is fairly balanced and not crazy cheesy, expecting to play against tau or SM. You manage to find a PUG, but you were are up against a very average ork list. How can you find enjoyment in playing a one sided game?

It goes like this:

Winning > Losing > No fun

I hope you find a solution for yourself with this. My friend stopped playing because of such mismatches. I played, for the most part, only weak armies. CSM, IG, Orks, DE. And whenever I played against my friends Tau or Necrons we had no happy faces to tell you the least. This imbalances led me to sell most of my armies and only stick to the ones i really really liked. While I still play, my friend dropped out of the hobby completely.

As long as the people you play against aren't complete asses who play to always win all the time instead of having fun, the game will be fun.

I hate playing games that are a big mismatch in power in either direction as an easy win is as vapid as an impossible matchup is frustrating. That being said its not impossible to have a low tier army fight a high tier army but the high tier army just needs to have some restrain and avoid some of the groin kicker tactics/formations/units. Casual 40k is very much a social contract game as both parties need to have their opponents enjoyment in mind and arrive at an agreeable place when it comes to what sort of game you all will be playing.

I seriously dislike games that are an easy turn 2 win, there's no fun in it and nothing to enjoy. For this reason I have no intention of ever running a Scatterbike Eldar list and stikking to my Aspect Warrior set up. So far my games have been relatively close, and the easy wins tend to come more from my Dark Eldar than Craftworld.

I don't like losing but would rather it was down to my bad tactics rather than coming up against an op army that I probably couldn't defeat whatever I did.
Too many match ups in 40k currently fit this bracket.
My hat goes off to anybody who still plays against these and even occasionally gets a win, but I now pick my games carefully.
On a side note I think a decent/sporting opponent can always be played, because they will adjust an army to make for a fair game for both sides.

 Selym wrote:
It goes like this:

Winning > Losing > No fun

True.

In some situation, the real problem is not to have an overpowerd army as if you have lots of guys to play with, each should find an opponent against who he can have a funny moment playing. The problems breaks up when it comes to 2/3 casual gamers' group. In this case, if one of them is winning, his comrades my not have fun anyway with it and leave because it's pointless carrying on.

And I know what I'm talking about because I'm in this very case: I almost always win. Let's fancy i do am a bit better than them as far as strategy: the edge I have over them this way would only allow me to win like barely more than 60% of my matches against them at the very most. Though, my imperial guard's is too powerful for them as far as it's been going. I started armored, and reduced to max 2 tanks per list to even the matches, unfortunatly not reaching a better ratio nor closer and tougher enough games. I now kinda put more normal infantry: even my storm troopers are now in rare use! And still no... I lost the ork player for a campaign, and what's hanging my CSM bud on is how often we play: 3/4 times a year maybe, (but he's gained up in hope for his non-cheesy eldars though achieved draws and may serv him better). The problem's coming from CSM and Orks codex that are too weak, especially the poor orks. (old-timer complaining and boring: ON )

In these conditions, as you have neither somebody else to play with nor, as far as I'm concerned, much more money nor lust about a second army to sink into 40k, well, I'd answer by: misaligned codices are a plague.

There is noting I like more then looking at the armies before the game starts and knowing what army is going to get krumped with no chance for survival at all. This really makes those next few hours playing out the game much more enjoyable.

No, it is not fun at all. Being repeatedly hammered by invisible triple Vindicator linebreakers whilst the Librarians who are making them invisible are hiding behind them so I cannot just blow them away whilst my tanks are wiped out by the so called 'underperforming' triple las predtors is not fun at all.
The power imbalance is nightmarish.

 oldzoggy wrote:
There is noting I like more then looking at the armies before the game starts and knowing what army is going to get krumped with no chance for survival at all. This really makes those next few hours playing out the game much more enjoyable.

Gotta love those days that go:

"I've got a fully painted and carefully detailed 250-man imperial guard infantry company. They are experts at urban warfare, and are comprised mainly of criminals and the disillusioned youth. All of my characters have names, and they are on a campaign to redeem their homew-"

"So that's 47 Str D hits, no cover or armour allowed, 223 Str 6 Ap 5 hits, also no cover, and I cast invisibility on my Gargantuan creature."

Tyranids round here ?

No, more seriously, that's a bit like that and there's no point in playing such macthes for either game.

This problem is even more shoking since I play bolt action where apart from germany whose special rules are quite useless, the game is well balanced...

 Selym wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
There is noting I like more then looking at the armies before the game starts and knowing what army is going to get krumped with no chance for survival at all. This really makes those next few hours playing out the game much more enjoyable.

Gotta love those days that go:

"I've got a fully painted and carefully detailed 250-man imperial guard infantry company. They are experts at urban warfare, and are comprised mainly of criminals and the disillusioned youth. All of my characters have names, and they are on a campaign to redeem their homew-"

"So that's 47 Str D hits, no cover or armour allowed, 223 Str 6 Ap 5 hits, also no cover, and I cast invisibility on my Gargantuan creature."

Haha, this. Or those times when your opponent just spams Ignore Cover against you. Have fun getting no saves at all.

I've been on both sides of this. I'm currently a Tau player and have been since the long, long ago before Tau got there relatively recent reboot. I'm talking pre-6th/7th when we had to wait 7 years for a model. I've always been a fan of Farsight and his story and always played a list comprised of Farsight and as many Crisis Suits as I could fit with limited support from Fire Warriors, Skyrays and Broadsides. Back in the day, I lost almost every game I played because the Tau were pretty terrible.

Fast forward to today. As soon as I pull out the first Crisis Suit from my case, people start talking about cheese and how Tau are overpowered and just need to be removed entirely from the game. They're too strong. They don't fit the grimdark aesthetic. I'm a terrible person for playing them. It becomes tiresome. Then, when we do play, my more or less same army dominates against pretty much any casual list. It's not a top tier tournament army, but it's no fun to play in stores any more.

So, I have a choice. Fundamentally change the army that I've lovingly built, painted and enjoyed for years, or shelf it and wait for the next meta shift. I chose to shelf it. Playing a game where the conclusion is foregone isn't fun for either player.

I feel like this is one of the major failings of Warhammer 40k 7th Edition. The wide open list building and proliferation of new detachments/formations with benefits but no real downsides has killed the game for many people. Fun casual lists simply have no chance against min/maxed power lists.

I like how Warmachine/Hordes does things. There is only one standard "force org"... Warlock/Warcaster with Warbeast/Warjack retinue + whatever units/solos/etc you can fit. Take too many Warbeasts/Warjacks and they quickly become unmanageable and useless. Take too many units/solos and you won't be able to withstand enemy Warbeasts/Warjacks. Plus, there are theme lists which represent "fluff armies". Theme lists usually have pretty severe and limiting restrictions on what can be taken and then give benefits to make up for your lack of army variety. For example, an army completely made up of Ogruns (think snow/mountain ogres) might allow the Ogruns to deploy 5" forward from your deployment zone and give them all +1 strength. The downside? ...you can't take any ranged support. Something like that. With 40k, it's all benefits with no mechanism to enforce any sort of balance.

Winning with an underdog army is the best.

Na it goes both sides. I also don't enjoy one sided games when I am doing the krumping. This sadly has happened a few times this year when I completely overestimated the power of my opponents list before hand and brought some of my stronger imperial stuff.

I love to crush an opponent on tactics from time to time but I hate to win purely on list building or even worse codex balancing issues, and avoiding this is getting way too hard in casual pick up games lately.

The only thing that I dislike more in this game is are "balancing" house rules like you can only bring x detachments, or shoe horning a huge penalty on MSU (and thus rewarding death starts) in every fething mission. Those changes hardly hit the hyper point efficient builds at all but make it next to impossible to build a half decent ork or Inquisitorial army. What this game needs is a half yearly point revision of all units and detachments and non of that player based rebalancing crap.

My games usually end up being more casual lists so the power levels usually work out even. They're pretty fun.

Although there was a game ages ago that involved Tyranids. That was not fun. Winning just made me feel bad because the opponent had such a disadvantage.

When my friends don't go all out cheese, we have a pretty good game, even when I'm scrubbing it with Orks. But yeah, when they go full all cheese against my low tier stuff, it's not usually fun

Depends who you ask.

Me? I'm selling all my armies. Sick and tired of the imbalance that I've made the conscious decision to quit. I've done spamming Flyrants and destroyed people, done grounded tyranids and been destroyed. I've done Warbiker spam and tabled people, played against Decurion and got tabled. I've played against Tau and got tabled, played against Space Marines and got destroyed. I have the weak armies (BA, Nids, Orks, DE), which obviously contributes, but it shouldn't. Each faction should have be viable. The fact that GW keeps showing favoritism towards certain armies shows to me at least, that things aren't going to change.

My TFG mate? Used to play DE and Chaos, joined the bandwagon onto Necrons, SM and Tau, only to hang up his SM when he couldn't win a few games with them. Otherwise every game it's Riptides, Canoptek Harvests (yes, plural), SSKT, etc. He just has to win, with dubious rules claims supporting him.

Besides, by selling all my stuff I've got a bit more cash to invest in systems that are cheaper or more balanced. Or just to spend on non-hobby luxuries.

I freely admit that I'm a power gamer, I pretty much always have been. It's been "play to win, work the game" for more than a decade at this point.

Then my friends and I decided to start 40k. I picked an army I liked the story of - Blood Angels. Fast forward a couple months and I have won one game. Out of I don't know how many played against my friends. So I think "Maybe I'm just not understanding this army. I don't like it as much as I thought I would." I wasn't having fun. Back to the drawing board.

I look at other armies, and realize I like both the aesthetic and story of the Eldar (They created a chaos god through their decadence! I also see the tragedy in their storyline and that appealed to me). I start collecting Eldar models, I like Rangers a lot, Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes. I like the models and the rules.

I didn't really start learning about all the imbalances until after I started playing the Eldar I was collecting. I didn't even have jetbikes at my first couple events (and only one unit of warp spiders, also no wk yet) and people would sneer as soon as they saw the faction on my army list. Or even when I would start pulling Rangers out of my case. "Eldar is so cheesy!" was a response I got from a guy who had literally only seen me pull out nothing but a dozen rangers so far. I did okay with my first lists, was still learning the game (am still learning the game, there's always more to learn - new rules I haven't seen yet, new strategies, etc.). But then I started to expand to the jetbikes I wanted, and my natural power gamer kicked in. Got the jetbikes, got a couple more units of warp spiders, got that sweet super cool wk model. Then I started destroying. I could make big mistakes and still nearly (if not completely) table opponents. That stopped being fun after like two games. Eldar vs CSM was mentioned, and that was a game that made me realize I didn't want to play this way anymore. Casually, at least. Competitively, for prizes/paid events, it's all about the wins baby. But I still recognize that those wins are easier simply because of the faction I play.

Anyway, now I tone the lists down for casual play. I'll still have a spider or jetbike unit here and there, but they're not spammed, partially so my friends can slowly get used to what they'll have to play around when they start going to events, and partially because I still like the models and want them to have table time, I just scale back.

Sorry for the long post, but it really seems like people think anyone just starting Eldar are playing the army only because they know it'll win. I'm sure plenty of people are like me and start them because they like the models and the lore. Then they find out what'll win, and maybe they buy more of that, or maybe they were going to buy more of that anyway for their fluffy craftworld army. I personally haven't bought much into making fluffy armies (well, kind of now, I've started a Raven Guard force that I'm going to try to do as fluffy as I can), but I 100% see the appeal. It's tabletop story time, let's forge that narrative with fire and blood.

TL;DR - I'm a power gamer, and I would rather lose having fun than win and my opponent feel like they wasted hours doing nothing but removing models. I've been on the losing side of that. Brought a BA dreadnought force against a dude who tailored hard to beat it easily. It was awful, and I don't want my PUG opponents to feel how I felt after that game.

My natural tendency to win at all costs got pretty strong when I realized how easy wins are for Eldar when you build it a certain way. Then I realized how much time it takes out of a person's day to play me and get nothing out of it. Also, I wasn't increasing my skill in any way with spam lists. I may want to win badly, but I would rather lose and learn something than win every game. For example, that game I got wrecked with my BA dreads against a tailored list, I felt like I learned a lot. My opponent, however, made it very clear the only thing that mattered was I lost. I never want to be like that guy. Never. Weeks later he was still bragging about beating me to people around the LGS when I'd be talking to them about 40k. Like, really?

Maybe 40k has made me less of a power gamer lol.

While I think that codex imbalance plays into it, the attitude of both players matters a LOT more. If both go in, knowing exactly what kind of game they wanna play (casual, competetive, etc.) Then this problem is hugely mitigated. One (or both) players should know when to tone down, and when to bring the generic net-list FotM list. If 2 people have a game, and one dude spams spiders and bikes against an ork player, I'm GOING to frown on that eldar player because he is being a dick. no if's and's or but's about it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The game's not perfect and is highly flawed, but the community is what makes or breaks a game (and a games balance).

As to OP's poll: Winning is nice, BUT if it's a turn 2 win for either side (because army or just dice luck) it's a lot less fun. Fun>Winning>Loosing>No fun

I think it's a pretty identifiable situation. If you're goal is to play pick-up games with strangers or attend tournaments you're probably hosed 60% of the time. You have no control over the nature or ambition of your opponent and in general when facing people you don't know (particularly in tournaments) the goal is to win - maybe have some fun doing it.

However if you have a gaming group of people who aren't immature 14 year old ass-hats...it should be far easier. The rule becomes "hey, don't be a douche". If something is broken/beardy/cheese the players probably know it. If your group has a problem with this - you probably need a new group.

Personally I play games to have a good time with my friends, enjoy the social aspect, have a cool story develop during the game etc. We never play games with broken/cheesy stuff (and I don't just mean 40K). If a game goes super sideways in the first turn or two we'll abort, and start over - or play another game. I'd rather not get a game in than play against someone who's a beardy win-at-all-costs diehard who has zero interest in having a fun evening playing games.

While it doesn't address the tournament/pick-up game problems inherent in a competitive game system...the reality is you're the gamers. You can choose how to play the game. You can adjust point values, invalidate units, change rules...or simply build armies which aren't crap. It's up to you guys.

This is copy-pasted from another thread. I had similar experiences to Jakadakk.

This was 6th edition, about 2 years ago, and a learning game. Unlike many stories, this is my own list.

My opponent brought a cool, fluffy Ultramarine list. It had Marneus Calgar, and lots of units I don't normally see.

I brought 3 Wave Serpents, one with Wraithguard, one with Fire Dragons, and one with Dire Avengers, a Wraithknight, a Crimson Hunter, some Dark Reapers, and a 2+ rerollable Autarch on jetbike.

I was an complete and utter ass who posted stupid crap insulting people on the internet at the time, and ran cheese against everything because I couldn't win any other way. I'm surprised I wasn't slapped for that stunt. The game was over so quick that we played another game, this time bringing my Nids. I got utterly rolled.

Anyway. That was one of the experiences that made me semi-aware that I was being a douche, and I stopped playing Eldar after that game. I still write up some cheesy lists, but only as theory or for games where cheese is expected.

Don't be like me back then. Be a good person.

BossJakadakk wrote:
I freely admit that I'm a power gamer, I pretty much always have been. It's been "play to win, work the game" for more than a decade at this point.

Then my friends and I decided to start 40k. I picked an army I liked the story of - Blood Angels. Fast forward a couple months and I have won one game. Out of I don't know how many played against my friends. So I think "Maybe I'm just not understanding this army. I don't like it as much as I thought I would." I wasn't having fun. Back to the drawing board.

I look at other armies, and realize I like both the aesthetic and story of the Eldar (They created a chaos god through their decadence! I also see the tragedy in their storyline and that appealed to me). I start collecting Eldar models, I like Rangers a lot, Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes. I like the models and the rules.

I didn't really start learning about all the imbalances until after I started playing the Eldar I was collecting. I didn't even have jetbikes at my first couple events (and only one unit of warp spiders, also no wk yet) and people would sneer as soon as they saw the faction on my army list. Or even when I would start pulling Rangers out of my case. "Eldar is so cheesy!" was a response I got from a guy who had literally only seen me pull out nothing but a dozen rangers so far. I did okay with my first lists, was still learning the game (am still learning the game, there's always more to learn - new rules I haven't seen yet, new strategies, etc.). But then I started to expand to the jetbikes I wanted, and my natural power gamer kicked in. Got the jetbikes, got a couple more units of warp spiders, got that sweet super cool wk model. Then I started destroying. I could make big mistakes and still nearly (if not completely) table opponents. That stopped being fun after like two games. Eldar vs CSM was mentioned, and that was a game that made me realize I didn't want to play this way anymore. Casually, at least. Competitively, for prizes/paid events, it's all about the wins baby. But I still recognize that those wins are easier simply because of the faction I play.

Anyway, now I tone the lists down for casual play. I'll still have a spider or jetbike unit here and there, but they're not spammed, partially so my friends can slowly get used to what they'll have to play around when they start going to events, and partially because I still like the models and want them to have table time, I just scale back.

Sorry for the long post, but it really seems like people think anyone just starting Eldar are playing the army only because they know it'll win. I'm sure plenty of people are like me and start them because they like the models and the lore. Then they find out what'll win, and maybe they buy more of that, or maybe they were going to buy more of that anyway for their fluffy craftworld army. I personally haven't bought much into making fluffy armies (well, kind of now, I've started a Raven Guard force that I'm going to try to do as fluffy as I can), but I 100% see the appeal. It's tabletop story time, let's forge that narrative with fire and blood.

TL;DR - I'm a power gamer, and I would rather lose having fun than win and my opponent feel like they wasted hours doing nothing but removing models. I've been on the losing side of that. Brought a BA dreadnought force against a dude who tailored hard to beat it easily. It was awful, and I don't want my PUG opponents to feel how I felt after that game.

My natural tendency to win at all costs got pretty strong when I realized how easy wins are for Eldar when you build it a certain way. Then I realized how much time it takes out of a person's day to play me and get nothing out of it. Also, I wasn't increasing my skill in any way with spam lists. I may want to win badly, but I would rather lose and learn something than win every game. For example, that game I got wrecked with my BA dreads against a tailored list, I felt like I learned a lot. My opponent, however, made it very clear the only thing that mattered was I lost. I never want to be like that guy. Never. Weeks later he was still bragging about beating me to people around the LGS when I'd be talking to them about 40k. Like, really?

Maybe 40k has made me less of a power gamer lol.

Well, you and your bikes have the same problem than me and my leman russes: love them, but can't put much of them because otherwise it becomes too hard even if I din't mean to...

It hurts my heart

I've set up against another player only to know I was going to lose before the first die was cast. That's not fun. Every little victory I had that game was cause for celebration though.