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It's not really "fun" since it doesn't have to do anything. His armor save is listed in his profile which is all that really matters.

But the Ancient Incubi Warsuit could have extra abilities which have not been mentioned. It could have a 2++ re-rollable save and allows any fire to be directed back at the user at strength D. Or it could just be a 2+ save. If GW didn't include the rules for it, then the rules are open for interpretation.

Valkyrie wrote: If GW didn't include the rules for it, then the rules are open for interpretation.

They're really not. If there are on rules for it, then it has no rules. It's just a pretty name for a piece of equipment that doesn't actually do anything special.

insaniak wrote:

Valkyrie wrote: If GW didn't include the rules for it, then the rules are open for interpretation.

They're really not. If there are on rules for it, then it has no rules. It's just a pretty name for a piece of equipment that doesn't actually do anything special.

Like Fangir.

There are no rules for firing a multiblast weapon (Grotzooka comes to mind).

We have rules for firing a single shot from one blast weapon, and rules for a unit firing "more then one blast weapon".

But no rules for a blast weapon that fires more then one shot.

You follow the rules for shooting as everything is delineated into 'shots' and resolve it as normal... Look at the "TYPE" paragraph on page 27.

Bangbangboom wrote:There are no rules for firing a multiblast weapon (Grotzooka comes to mind).

We have rules for firing a single shot from one blast weapon, and rules for a unit firing "more then one blast weapon".

But no rules for a blast weapon that fires more then one shot.

Multiple Blasts isn't a problem. But there is an issue for a single Barrage weapon firing multiple blasts.

Grakmar wrote:

Bangbangboom wrote:There are no rules for firing a multiblast weapon (Grotzooka comes to mind).

We have rules for firing a single shot from one blast weapon, and rules for a unit firing "more then one blast weapon".

But no rules for a blast weapon that fires more then one shot.

Multiple Blasts isn't a problem. But there is an issue for a single Barrage weapon firing multiple blasts.

Seems like the same problem to me.

ChrisCP wrote:You follow the rules for shooting as everything is delineated into 'shots' and resolve it as normal... Look at the "TYPE" paragraph on page 27.

? I don't see how that paragraph helps.

Both rule sets contain instructions for firing a single shot from a single weapon (Blast pg30 / Barrage pg32) and rules for firing multiple weapons from a unit at once (Multiple blasts pg30 / Multiple barrages pg32) Neither rule set explains what to do with multiple shots from a single weapon.

You could follow the Multiple blasts or multiple barrages rules but strictly these are rules for firing a multiple number of these weapons from a unit not a multiple number of shots.

lets say I am firing my grotzooka, I have only one, do I:
a/ Follow the rules for multiple basts and treat it as firing separate blasts. choosing a target, checking target is in range, rolling scatter dice and then working out hits for the first shot before doing it all again for the second shot. (this gives me the option of targeting a different miniature if say the first target turned out to be out of range or just because I feel luck might scatter it onto a unit I can't reach or see)
b/ Or how about choosing one target, checking the range and then rolling the scatter dice from that chosen target for two different shots.
c/ Or maybe I choose a target, check range, roll the scatter dice, workout hits then just double the result.

See it sucks, we need rules for firing Blast2 etc weapons. I might be missing something because I'm new to the game but I am 99.9% sure the rules don't cover them.

Let's keep it on topic, folks...

Bangbangboom wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Bangbangboom wrote:There are no rules for firing a multiblast weapon (Grotzooka comes to mind).

We have rules for firing a single shot from one blast weapon, and rules for a unit firing "more then one blast weapon".

But no rules for a blast weapon that fires more then one shot.

Multiple Blasts isn't a problem. But there is an issue for a single Barrage weapon firing multiple blasts.

Seems like the same problem to me.

ChrisCP wrote:You follow the rules for shooting as everything is delineated into 'shots' and resolve it as normal... Look at the "TYPE" paragraph on page 27.

? I don't see how that paragraph helps.

Both rule sets contain instructions for firing a single shot from a single weapon (Blast pg30 / Barrage pg32) and rules for firing multiple weapons from a unit at once (Multiple blasts pg30 / Multiple barrages pg32) Neither rule set explains what to do with multiple shots from a single weapon.

You could follow the Multiple blasts or multiple barrages rules but strictly these are rules for firing a multiple number of these weapons from a unit not a multiple number of shots.

lets say I am firing my grotzooka, I have only one, do I:
a/ Follow the rules for multiple basts and treat it as firing separate blasts. choosing a target, checking target is in range, rolling scatter dice and then working out hits for the first shot before doing it all again for the second shot. (this gives me the option of targeting a different miniature if say the first target turned out to be out of range or just because I feel luck might scatter it onto a unit I can't reach or see)
b/ Or how about choosing one target, checking the range and then rolling the scatter dice from that chosen target for two different shots.
c/ Or maybe I choose a target, check range, roll the scatter dice, workout hits then just double the result.

See it sucks, we need rules for firing Blast2 etc weapons. I might be missing something because I'm new to the game but I am 99.9% sure the rules don't cover them.

Well, to start with there’s no such thing as a ‘Blast 2’ weapon they are ‘assault two, blast’ obviously one fires a Grotzooka in the same fashion one fires any assault 2 weapon, you have two rolls to hit and perform the actions, being a blast marker just means "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit,
instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle." and you'll do it twice.

I'm not sure if there is an actual issue with the Multi barrages or if it's just ugly, if one fired a barrage type weapon with two shots, there is nothing to stop you following the directions through for the additional markers and then doing the second shot after. That is in fact how the rules tell one to do it.

ArbitorIan wrote:
Oh, and the golden rule is, if you want to argue about things for pages, start a new thread!

Thanks, ArbitorIan! Without that golden rule, I might have started arguing in this thread! It's sure a good thing I read the main topic first!

ChrisCP wrote:

Bangbangboom wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Bangbangboom wrote:There are no rules for firing a multiblast weapon (Grotzooka comes to mind).

We have rules for firing a single shot from one blast weapon, and rules for a unit firing "more then one blast weapon".

But no rules for a blast weapon that fires more then one shot.

Multiple Blasts isn't a problem. But there is an issue for a single Barrage weapon firing multiple blasts.

Seems like the same problem to me.

ChrisCP wrote:You follow the rules for shooting as everything is delineated into 'shots' and resolve it as normal... Look at the "TYPE" paragraph on page 27.

? I don't see how that paragraph helps.

Both rule sets contain instructions for firing a single shot from a single weapon (Blast pg30 / Barrage pg32) and rules for firing multiple weapons from a unit at once (Multiple blasts pg30 / Multiple barrages pg32) Neither rule set explains what to do with multiple shots from a single weapon.

You could follow the Multiple blasts or multiple barrages rules but strictly these are rules for firing a multiple number of these weapons from a unit not a multiple number of shots.

lets say I am firing my grotzooka, I have only one, do I:
a/ Follow the rules for multiple basts and treat it as firing separate blasts. choosing a target, checking target is in range, rolling scatter dice and then working out hits for the first shot before doing it all again for the second shot. (this gives me the option of targeting a different miniature if say the first target turned out to be out of range or just because I feel luck might scatter it onto a unit I can't reach or see)
b/ Or how about choosing one target, checking the range and then rolling the scatter dice from that chosen target for two different shots.
c/ Or maybe I choose a target, check range, roll the scatter dice, workout hits then just double the result.

See it sucks, we need rules for firing Blast2 etc weapons. I might be missing something because I'm new to the game but I am 99.9% sure the rules don't cover them.

Well, to start with there’s no such thing as a ‘Blast 2’ weapon they are ‘assault two, blast’ obviously one fires a Grotzooka in the same fashion one fires any assault 2 weapon, you have two rolls to hit and perform the actions, being a blast marker just means "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit,
instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle." and you'll do it twice.

I'm not sure if there is an actual issue with the Multi barrages or if it's just ugly, if one fired a barrage type weapon with two shots, there is nothing to stop you following the directions through for the additional markers and then doing the second shot after. That is in fact how the rules tell one to do it.

rubbish ... To fire an Assault 2 blast weapon you must ...
Place one blast, roll for scatter count how many models are under the blast,
1) Pick a target unit
2) Place a blast template over the unit (with one model under the central hole)
3) Roll for scatter
4) Count how many models are hit (placing dice next to the unit works well)
5) Repeat step 2-4 for all other blasts
6) Roll to wound
7) Roll saves

Barrage works fine, if badly written.

What, no daemon rules?

One thing i can't believe I never noticed, and I believe I am correct...

I was playing a game with my Iyanden list and my opponent brought up the LoS thing snarkily (obviously we didn't play that way, but we had a laugh).

It was casual, we didn't have the rulebook there.

If the LoS rule for shooting really does say "Trace a line from the model's eyes"...

How does any helmeted marine shoot?

From the eye lenses?
Common sense people

Gwyidion wrote:If the LoS rule for shooting really does say "Trace a line from the model's eyes"...

How does any helmeted marine shoot?

Fairly sure that one was pointed out earlier in the thread. The 'model's eyes' requirement technically causes issues for any number of models in the game.

it was. bottom of p1 in fact.

Still, keeping it in the arsenal for the insane arguments that crop up when new people come into the local store.

LoL @ the common sense statement. This is RaW!

Yes, but if they clearly have modeled eye holes with or without lenses, those are where their eyes would be.
I understand wraithguard having no eye locations, but not SM.

Orks can Waaagh! on the first turn, as the book only states "it does not normally waaagh" and doesn't state that it *can't*

I have removed a series of off-topic posts from this thread, since people chose to ignore the previous public reminder.

Further wandering off-course will result in suspensions.


I would also suggest that, while a certain amount of back-and-forth is inevitable if people disagree on the validity of a suggested RAW issue, if it goes past a post or two it's worth starting a separate thread for it rather than hashing it out in this one.

greenbay924 wrote:Orks can Waaagh! on the first turn, as the book only states "it does not normally waaagh" and doesn't state that it *can't*

That's actually pretty interesting. The exact quote is "This may not normally be declared on the fist turn as a proper Waaagh! needs some momentum behind it". Is that only to cover up for things like the Weirdboys Waaagh! Actually, that's the only circumstance I can think of that's not "normal", but that power also states that it can be used on the first turn. Are they trying to be clear or is there a loophole here?

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Yes, but if they clearly have modeled eye holes with or without lenses, those are where their eyes would be.
I understand wraithguard having no eye locations, but not SM.

I have to disagree. This is RAW, the rule says "eyes". "eye lenses" or "visor" are not eyes. No eyes, no shooting.

Gwyidion wrote:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Yes, but if they clearly have modeled eye holes with or without lenses, those are where their eyes would be.
I understand wraithguard having no eye locations, but not SM.

I have to disagree. This is RAW, the rule says "eyes". "eye lenses" or "visor" are not eyes. No eyes, no shooting.

Your logic is bad and you should feel bad.

I'm done here. Enjoy your arguments over models having eyes and vehicles getting invulnerable saves.

Ixias wrote:[The exact quote is "This may not normally be declared on the fist turn as a proper Waaagh! needs some momentum behind it". Is that only to cover up for things like the Weirdboys Waaagh! Actually, that's the only circumstance I can think of that's not "normal", but that power also states that it can be used on the first turn. Are they trying to be clear or is there a loophole here?

No loophole. It's exactly as you suggest... you can't normally call it on the first turn, so would need something (in this case, the Wierdboy) to specifically allow it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:I'm done here. Enjoy your arguments over models having eyes and vehicles getting invulnerable saves.

I suspect that you have missed the point of this thread.

insaniak wrote:

Ixias wrote:[The exact quote is "This may not normally be declared on the fist turn as a proper Waaagh! needs some momentum behind it". Is that only to cover up for things like the Weirdboys Waaagh! Actually, that's the only circumstance I can think of that's not "normal", but that power also states that it can be used on the first turn. Are they trying to be clear or is there a loophole here?

No loophole. It's exactly as you suggest... you can't normally call it on the first turn, so would need something (in this case, the Wierdboy) to specifically allow it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:I'm done here. Enjoy your arguments over models having eyes and vehicles getting invulnerable saves.

I suspect that you have missed the point of this thread.

Not missed the point.
If someone is wearing eyeglasses, can you still trace LoS from their eyes? Yes

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:If someone is wearing eyeglasses, can you still trace LoS from their eyes? Yes

Absolutely. That doesn't help with other models like the Wraithlord, who don't have eyes at all.

I know. I was agreeing with Gwyidion about wraithlords etc


I still say even RAW, you can trace LoS from helmet's with eye slits, because the eyes are behind them.

If not, That would be like saying if a model is blindfolded (I think some old Witch hunters models are), they can't trace LoS.

Tri wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Bangbangboom wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Bangbangboom wrote:There are no rules for firing a multiblast weapon (Grotzooka comes to mind).

We have rules for firing a single shot from one blast weapon, and rules for a unit firing "more then one blast weapon".

But no rules for a blast weapon that fires more then one shot.

Multiple Blasts isn't a problem. But there is an issue for a single Barrage weapon firing multiple blasts.

Seems like the same problem to me.

ChrisCP wrote:You follow the rules for shooting as everything is delineated into 'shots' and resolve it as normal... Look at the "TYPE" paragraph on page 27.

? I don't see how that paragraph helps.

Both rule sets contain instructions for firing a single shot from a single weapon (Blast pg30 / Barrage pg32) and rules for firing multiple weapons from a unit at once (Multiple blasts pg30 / Multiple barrages pg32) Neither rule set explains what to do with multiple shots from a single weapon.

You could follow the Multiple blasts or multiple barrages rules but strictly these are rules for firing a multiple number of these weapons from a unit not a multiple number of shots.

lets say I am firing my grotzooka, I have only one, do I:
a/ Follow the rules for multiple basts and treat it as firing separate blasts. choosing a target, checking target is in range, rolling scatter dice and then working out hits for the first shot before doing it all again for the second shot. (this gives me the option of targeting a different miniature if say the first target turned out to be out of range or just because I feel luck might scatter it onto a unit I can't reach or see)
b/ Or how about choosing one target, checking the range and then rolling the scatter dice from that chosen target for two different shots.
c/ Or maybe I choose a target, check range, roll the scatter dice, workout hits then just double the result.

See it sucks, we need rules for firing Blast2 etc weapons. I might be missing something because I'm new to the game but I am 99.9% sure the rules don't cover them.

Well, to start with there’s no such thing as a ‘Blast 2’ weapon they are ‘assault two, blast’ obviously one fires a Grotzooka in the same fashion one fires any assault 2 weapon, you have two rolls to hit and perform the actions, being a blast marker just means "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit,
instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle." and you'll do it twice.

I'm not sure if there is an actual issue with the Multi barrages or if it's just ugly, if one fired a barrage type weapon with two shots, there is nothing to stop you following the directions through for the additional markers and then doing the second shot after. That is in fact how the rules tell one to do it.

rubbish ... To fire an Assault 2 blast weapon you must ...
Place one blast, roll for scatter count how many models are under the blast,
1) Pick a target unit
2) Place a blast template over the unit (with one model under the central hole)
3) Roll for scatter
4) Count how many models are hit (placing dice next to the unit works well)
5) Repeat step 2-4 for all other blasts
6) Roll to wound
7) Roll saves

Barrage works fine, if badly written.

That's what I was saying with the quote from the rulebook?

Just a reminder about what an eye is, before someone makes the mistake of saying something like "aliens don't have eyes": an eye is a sensory organ which convert light to electro-chemical impulses. It's NOT a human eye, and it's not even necessarily a biological eye. There's also a broader interpretation of eye than the strictly biological one you'll find on wikipedia, where it is simply a sensory organ (biological or otherwise) which detect electromagnetic radiation (it mustn't necessarily be light - i.e. detectable by the human eye).

This means that a Space Marine might just have a neural graft linked into his helmet (or you could simply argue that there's eyes behind the helmet, you're drawing line of sight from them, but since the helmet is part of the model's own unit you can ignore it for purposes of line-of-sight), but it still does not help the Wraithguard which has no form what-so-ever of eyes and isn't even described as having sensory organs at all.

The eldar psychic power eldritch storm doesn't need to hit vehicles, touching them with the template triggers the effect. It also doesn't specify when to check touching so before, during or after scatter, it's all good. The more scatter the better

Edit, just tought of one more:
You can use the power doom on your own units and reroll successfull wounds in the hopes of making them fail.