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Amaya wrote:A lot of stereotyping going on with RG3. He's an excellent passer and certainly better at this point in his career than Vick was at the same time.

Just because he's black doesn't mean his passing skills are automatically inferior to all the top tier white QBs.

What is interesting is that in all the discussion not once was race mentioned, just skill sets. The one who seems to have race on the mind is you.

It helps if you read the thread.

Anyone who has seen Griffin play last year can tell that he as excellent passer. Comparing him to Vick is a mistake, people do that simply because they're both black.

Amaya wrote:It helps if you read the thread.

Anyone who has seen Griffin play last year can tell that he as excellent passer. Comparing him to Vick is a mistake, people do that simply because they're both black.

There you go again, jumping right into race where it wasn't there. It can't be that they are comparing two QB's, no no no, it has to be that they are comparing two black men, right? I'm not sure if it is more telling that you go straight to race, or that you can't see no one else is.

Until you remove racism from your heart, and your head, you will never truly understand sabermetrics.

Sabermetrics is used in Baseball, it has never been widely applied to Football.

In fact sabr is derived from Society of American Baseball Research. It's just advanced statistics.

I personally wouldn't compare RG3 to any active QB in the NFL.

helgrenze wrote:
And yet Mike Vick is doing well as a starter in Philly, and was also pretty decent in Atlanta. That type of QB needs to have a really good O-line to be successful.

No, not really. A scrambling QB can get by with a middling O-line if he has good receivers, a clear outlet (usually a TE), a solid running back, or just isn't stupid.

A really good O-line will make any QB better, but its really only necessary for static, or undersized, pocket passers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:Sabermetrics is used in Baseball, it has never been widely applied to Football.

Not to the same degree, but it has been used.

The issue is that no one has yet created a good set of baseline measurements, largely due to the diversity of roles in football.

But it can be done, you just need someone to care enough to do it.

dogma wrote:But it can be done, you just need someone to care enough to do it.

Exactly. The fundamental math behind is applicable to just about any sport that uses statistics, one would just need to build the proper models. The whole field is still fairly new and it isn't as if it has been a part of baseball for 100 years either.

Ahtman wrote:

Amaya wrote:It helps if you read the thread.

Anyone who has seen Griffin play last year can tell that he as excellent passer. Comparing him to Vick is a mistake, people do that simply because they're both black.

There you go again, jumping right into race where it wasn't there. It can't be that they are comparing two QB's, no no no, it has to be that they are comparing two black men, right? I'm not sure if it is more telling that you go straight to race, or that you can't see no one else is.

Although Michael Vick is an odd and inaccurate comparison unless skin color is a factor. Vick is about 3 inches shorter, probably faster, made most of his plays in college outside the pocket, and has never been known as an accurate passer (completion percentage in the 50s in both college and the NFL). Griffin is taller, possibly stronger, more of a pocket passer, and had a career completion percentage of 66% in college. Their games even look different on the field.

Below are stats from Vick's and Griffin's final seasons in college.

2000 Vick

Completions 97
Attempts 179
Cmp% 54.2
Yards 1439
TDs 9
Ints 7
Rushing attempts 113
Rushing yards 636
TDs 9


2011 Griffin

Completions 267
Attempts 369
Cmp % 72.4
Yards 3,998
TDs 36
Ints 6
Rushing attempts 161
Rushing yards 644
TDs 9

Their rushing offense is similar, but otherwise you're looking at two very different QBs. RG3 is a much, much more accomplished, accurate and talented passer as he enters the NFL.

gorgon wrote:
Below are stats from Vick's and Griffin's final seasons in college.

2000 Vick

Completions 97
Attempts 179
Cmp% 54.2
Yards 1439
TDs 9
Ints 7
Rushing attempts 113
Rushing yards 636
TDs 9


2011 Griffin

Completions 267
Attempts 369
Cmp % 72.4
Yards 3,998
TDs 36
Ints 6
Rushing attempts 161
Rushing yards 644
TDs 9

Their rushing offense is similar, but otherwise you're looking at two very different QBs. RG3 is a much, much more accomplished, accurate and talented passer as he enters the NFL.

Just for comparison
Andrew Luck's final season....
Completions 288
Attempts 404
Cmp % 71.3
Yards 3517
TDs 37
Ints 10
Rushing attempts 47
Rushing yards 150
TDs 2

Comparison of the trio's College careers:

Andrew Luck College career stats. (3 Seasons)

Completions 713
Attempts 1064
Cmp % 67
Yards 9430
TDs 82
Ints 22
Rushing attempts 163
Rushing yards 957
TDs 7

RG3 College career stats. (4 seasons)

Completions 776
Attempts 1159
Cmp % 66.125
Yards 10071
TDs 77
Ints 17
Rushing attempts 510
Rushing yards 2199
TDs 32

Michael Vick College career stats. (2 seasons)
Completions 187
Attempts 332
Cmp % 56.5
Yards 3279
TDs 21
Ints 12
Rushing attempts 223
Rushing yards 1216
TDs 17

RG3 really didn't come into his own as a great passer until this last season. He was good, but not amazing like he was for stretches at a time last year.

So, Philly locked down Jackson, Herremans, and Cole. A couple more deals and maybe some freeagent moves.... They could be a real contender.

Reggie Wayne surprised everyone by staying withe Colts. Pierre Garcon signed up with the Redskins. I would think Addai would end up wherever Manning does, but most expected that would happen to Wayne as well.

helgrenze wrote:So, Philly locked down Jackson, Herremans, and Cole. A couple more deals and maybe some freeagent moves.... They could be a real contender.

they said that last year too


Strangely, I can't think of anyone coming up in the draft, aside from Luck and RG3.. Are there any extremely talented, or "high profile" types coming out this year in other positions?


I should also point out that, I compared RG3 to Vick simply because, while I recently returned from Germany the only highlights that I personally saw of him were predominately plays that he made with his legs, rather than his arm.. Based on his stats, I would say he is more of a Running Favre, but a ton safer than good ol' Brett.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:I should also point out that, I compared RG3 to Vick simply because, while I recently returned from Germany the only highlights that I personally saw of him were predominately plays that he made with his legs, rather than his arm.. Based on his stats, I would say he is more of a Running Favre, but a ton safer than good ol' Brett.

This is why I expect the Colts to go for RG3. They gutted the team and are looking at moving in a new direction. Luck is a lot like Manning, pocket passer, mobile but not a runner, needs a solid O-line, especially on the blindside.
New Coach, New FO.... and the GM was Philly's head of Scouts.... Just don't see them taking Luck over RG3.


And EVERY team says they are only a few moves from the big win. And they typically are, but the ones they make don't always work out. Vince Young.. for example..

Gitsplitta wrote:And the Bears land....

A habitual abuser fresh off his latest offense (or so they say). If these guys would actually get sent to jail the same way the rest of us would for similar offenses... players would likely act a bit differently, as would the teams that hire them.

That being said... the bears *really* needed a #1 receiver.
Jason Campbell is a decent pick-up as well.

Brandon Marshall can be a #1 receiver. At 6'4" 230 he has the size for it.

His stats were very good when he was with Denver and he had Cutler throwing to him:

The following is from wikipedia.
During the 2007 season, Marshall posted team-highs and career-highs in receptions (102), receiving yards (1,325) and receiving touchdowns (7).[1] Marshall reached the 1,000-yard milestone during the 13th game of the season, which was a 41-7 home win over the Kansas City Chiefs. In the game, Marshall had 10 catches for 115 yards and 2 touchdowns.[19] Among all of the wide receivers in the NFL during the season, Marshall placed fifth in receptions (102), sixth in receiving yards (1,325), second in yards after the catch (505), first in yards after first contact (319), first in number of times targeted (170) and tied for fourth in catches that led to first downs (70)

It will be a good pickup for the Bears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Marshall

Think Fans are tough on players.? ....

Packers beat writer Bob McGinn slams the Redskins
"Hard to find 2 more ineffective, near-worthless players in NFC-N than CB (Cedric) Griffin and S (Brandon) Meriweather. #Redskins signed them both. Wow."

helgrenze wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:I should also point out that, I compared RG3 to Vick simply because, while I recently returned from Germany the only highlights that I personally saw of him were predominately plays that he made with his legs, rather than his arm.. Based on his stats, I would say he is more of a Running Favre, but a ton safer than good ol' Brett.

This is why I expect the Colts to go for RG3. They gutted the team and are looking at moving in a new direction. Luck is a lot like Manning, pocket passer, mobile but not a runner, needs a solid O-line, especially on the blindside.
New Coach, New FO.... and the GM was Philly's head of Scouts.... Just don't see them taking Luck over RG3.


And EVERY team says they are only a few moves from the big win. And they typically are, but the ones they make don't always work out. Vince Young.. for example..

Can't agree with you on this one Hel. They sucked for Luck.

who do you think Peyton Manning will sign for? I'd like to see him go to Denver

Byte... Maybe, but RG3 lit things up at the Combine and improved his stock, so to speak. Luck showed to be the lesser of the two. The Colts will take the best player available. That was how the GM was trained in Philly.... Take the best player available.
And among the QBs in this years draft.... that is RG3.

Madman... The 49ers are in the mix now and just signed Manningham. Among the teams in competition, SF has the best Defense and O-line.
Miami is talking to Alex Smith and effectively out of the bidding.
Tenn needs some WR help for Johnson, though Britt had some solid years in the past and could florish with Mannings accuracy.
Whoever he signs with, the losers are going to have some serious fence mending with their current QBs.

madman12367 wrote:who do you think Peyton Manning will sign for? I'd like to see him go to Denver

49ers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

helgrenze wrote:Byte... Maybe, but RG3 lit things up at the Combine and improved his stock, so to speak. Luck showed to be the lesser of the two. The Colts will take the best player available. That was how the GM was trained in Philly.... Take the best player available.
And among the QBs in this years draft.... that is RG3.

Madman... The 49ers are in the mix now and just signed Manningham. Among the teams in competition, SF has the best Defense and O-line.
Miami is talking to Alex Smith and effectively out of the bidding.
Tenn needs some WR help for Johnson, though Britt had some solid years in the past and could florish with Mannings accuracy.
Whoever he signs with, the losers are going to have some serious fence mending with their current QBs.

It's kind of hard to read the tea leaves on RG3. If he goes to Indy, I'll be the first to tell you that you were right, but if he doesn't...

49ers also signed a one year deal with Randy Moss btw.

Anybody care about the bounty system the Saints had going on?

halonachos wrote:Anybody care about the bounty system the Saints had going on?

Honestly.... I think quite a few teams have some kind of "bounty system". The Saints just got exposed. Probably due to a playerthat felt he deserved a better payday for his contributions.

helgrenze wrote:

halonachos wrote:Anybody care about the bounty system the Saints had going on?

Honestly.... I think quite a few teams have some kind of "bounty system". The Saints just got exposed. Probably due to a playerthat felt he deserved a better payday for his contributions.

I would like to think that the majority of teams don't, wouldn't surprise me if the Raiders did though.

You think Clay Matthews doesn't get some kind of "bonus" every time a player leaves the game, even for one down, after he hits them?

It appears, according to the internets, that Peyton is going to go for the Broncos. As it turns out, he is in it for the money... imagine.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:It appears, according to the internets, that Peyton is going to go for the Broncos. As it turns out, he is in it for the money... imagine.

According to the news on the NFL network channel, peyton is making this decision as a "football decision" not money... and now the Bs are shopping Tebow around.

Has anyone ever actually said "This isn't about the game, it is about the money"?

Closest I can find is:

Patrick Ewing as President of the Player's Association during contract negotiations, "Sure NBA players make a lot of money, but we spend a lot too."

$90 million for 5 years for Manning: I see a complete waste of money

Though apparently the Broncos want to trade Tebow now: the plot thickens

I wonder if Tebow is feeling the love yet.

Amaya wrote:I wonder if Tebow is feeling the love yet.

He'll go to Oakland.. then we'll see him feel the love