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Clearly, you are unfamiliar with current Tyranids fluff. The last codex did to them exactly what this codex is doing to Necrons. It sundered their aura of faceless unity, reduced the notion of an integrated universal Hivemind, and subdivided the creatures into differentiated categories with unique characteristics, from prideful warlords (Swarmlord) to lonely failed experiments (Ymgarl Genestealers).

At least with Necrons it makes sense, since they were a mortal race at one point.

I rather like the new tyranid fluff. Being monolithic in intent and execution is overwhelmingly boring and that codex cleaned up quite a few plot holes that the tyranids possessed.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:You could also just use your Lord model as an Overlord.

That's not quite what I'm saying.
My problem is not that I have to buy new models.
My problem sits in that I, from what I know at the moment, find Lords cooler than Crypteks, but fear that an "All Lord, no Cryptek" build might be slightly unviable as the Crypteks seem to be getting several of the key items (Rez. Orb, VoD...).
Now, if the Lords too can carry these items, I'll be the happiest camper around. But, from what I've heard, it seems that the Crypteks will be the new ball carriers and VoDers, ergo the Lords might not have access to the Rez. Orb.
Now, imagine the Crypteks get a lot of even fancier stuff than that!
From the looks of it, Crypteks will fit the support role, while Lords will be "mere" punches. But I liked Lords that differed in being either Punches or support... And I do not want that to change

insaniak wrote:

Nagashek wrote:So, let me get this straight. In order to make the most atrocious piece of fluff in the Blood Angels book okay, he retconned the fluff FOR AN ENTIRE RACE?!? Seriously? That's how we're going to do this now? Reshape the galaxy to allow one person to ruin the fluff we've been enjoying for years?

You know there's more than one guy in the design studio, right?

So you're saying it took a committee to decide that Necrons needed to be honorable warriors that respect Blood Angels? That Necrons are really more like the Iron Hands Space Marines than ACTUAL aliens.

Before their motivations were inscrutible and alien. Now their motivation is so very human. Did the fluff seem contradictory? Yup. As my motivations are for children, so too are the motivations of 65 million year old star gods to the Imperium. I mean... shoot! This new fluff makes them look like GOOD GUYS FFS!

Nagashek wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Nagashek wrote:So, let me get this straight. In order to make the most atrocious piece of fluff in the Blood Angels book okay, he retconned the fluff FOR AN ENTIRE RACE?!? Seriously? That's how we're going to do this now? Reshape the galaxy to allow one person to ruin the fluff we've been enjoying for years?

You know there's more than one guy in the design studio, right?

So you're saying it took a committee to decide that Necrons needed to be honorable warriors that respect Blood Angels? That Necrons are really more like the Iron Hands Space Marines than ACTUAL aliens.

Before their motivations were inscrutible and alien. Now their motivation is so very human. Did the fluff seem contradictory? Yup. As my motivations are for children, so too are the motivations of 65 million year old star gods to the Imperium. I mean... shoot! This new fluff makes them look like GOOD GUYS FFS!

Did we read the same bit of fluff? Can I have some of what you're having?

Yeah but it's his name on the book. If he gets the credit, he also gets the blame.

For lots of people a lack of fluff is a great chance to fill in their own backstory, necrons actually HAVING developed fluff means lots of their fanfluff and oh so deep alien motives have been invalidated.

corpsesarefun wrote:For lots of people a lack of fluff is a great chance to fill in their own backstory, necrons actually HAVING developed fluff means lots of their fanfluff and oh so deep alien motives have been invalidated.

Not really. Most of the old Necron fluff still works due to the numerous "backdoors" Ward left in (Like the tomb world focused on converting other tomb worlds into traditional Necrons). The main exception is any fanfluff involving C'tan (I think they should have totally allowed C'tan shards as HQ, but whatever).

Nagashek wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Nagashek wrote:So, let me get this straight. In order to make the most atrocious piece of fluff in the Blood Angels book okay, he retconned the fluff FOR AN ENTIRE RACE?!? Seriously? That's how we're going to do this now? Reshape the galaxy to allow one person to ruin the fluff we've been enjoying for years?

You know there's more than one guy in the design studio, right?

So you're saying it took a committee to decide that Necrons needed to be honorable warriors that respect Blood Angels? That Necrons are really more like the Iron Hands Space Marines than ACTUAL aliens.

Before their motivations were inscrutible and alien. Now their motivation is so very human. Did the fluff seem contradictory? Yup. As my motivations are for children, so too are the motivations of 65 million year old star gods to the Imperium. I mean... shoot! This new fluff makes them look like GOOD GUYS FFS!

Their motivations were 100% contradictory before. They declared war on the old ones for essentially no reason. They had the ability to cross the stars and trap gods in living metal but they couldn't cure their cancer. A cancer that shouldn't have been a problem the moment they became an interstellar empire anyway and got away from the radiation superstar. Hell, lets focus on that. Why did they evolve such that they get cancer and die when they've existed under the same star during their races entire history? Even on earth we have creatures that don't get cancer, why would a highly advanced life form die of cancer before senescence set in?

Moving from there, the Ctan eat emotions. They also can't interact with the warp. That is directly contradictory. There is no science explanation using their incredible superscience because an emotion is just a biological experiential state in an organic brain. Thats not something you can eat without some sort of otherworldly psychic or religious aspect to it.

Moving on from there, they have FTL travel and perfectly accurate inter spatial teleportation. They can effect time and space on a whim to be what they want. How the hell do they lose to orks or humans or even eldar then? Why is the chosen manifestation of a race so advanced it is effectively a race of timeless gods a bunch of shambling robot human skeletons.

Moving on from there, why do they want to kill everything when they need to eat the emotions of sentient races to survive? Why does their great work involve separating the warp from realspace? Something that would kill virutally every living creature in the galaxy?

Their old fluff was awful. It was badly written, contradictory, marry sueish, devoid of subtext or plot twists, and it was so full of pop culture references that it might have well been written by blizzard.

Most of the old necron stuff was the C'tan.

Nagashek wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Nagashek wrote:So, let me get this straight. In order to make the most atrocious piece of fluff in the Blood Angels book okay, he retconned the fluff FOR AN ENTIRE RACE?!? Seriously? That's how we're going to do this now? Reshape the galaxy to allow one person to ruin the fluff we've been enjoying for years?

You know there's more than one guy in the design studio, right?

So you're saying it took a committee to decide that Necrons needed to be honorable warriors that respect Blood Angels? That Necrons are really more like the Iron Hands Space Marines than ACTUAL aliens.

Before their motivations were inscrutible and alien. Now their motivation is so very human. Did the fluff seem contradictory? Yup. As my motivations are for children, so too are the motivations of 65 million year old star gods to the Imperium. I mean... shoot! This new fluff makes them look like GOOD GUYS FFS!

Wasn't their old motive "kill everyone for our bosses".

Whooooaaa man I can barely scrute that! Feels so alien yo!

Any word on how the necrons maintain legion? Just inumerable tomb worlds slowly waking? I realize they regenerate alot better than most with phase out, but are they truely immortal? It strikes me that the Space marines could never maintain a victory against such a foe... and we all know that can't be allowed.

I think the cancer angle would have worked a lot better in the old codex if it was just a disease that they couldn't cure. They would still have their hatred of longer-lived species, but they'd have no real hope (Unlike what the "cancer star" option suggests).

The other change would be to give an actual catalyst for the first Old Ones/Necrontyr war. Tension does not create a war by itself; there needs to be some sort of moment where the Necrontyr were moved to conflict.

However, that would only make the old fluff better; it wouldn't really expand it.

Bulkoth wrote:Any word on how the necrons maintain legion? Just inumerable tomb worlds slowly waking? I realize they regenerate alot better than most with phase out, but are they truely immortal? It strikes me that the Space marines could never maintain a victory against such a foe... and we all know that can't be allowed.

The old explanation was that defeated necrons (even when blown to small pieces) would teleport out after battle and be repaired meaning there were no net losses.

Cmon guys, let's be civil, yes? I acknowledge that I am clearly in the minority on the new Necron fluff. I've sold off my army, and now I don't have to play them OR endure this rewrite.

I did believe that the fluff needed expansion and explaination, but the full rewrite and retcon is pretty rediculous, and i don't like it. The insults are unnecessary.

Enjoy your honorbound alien spacemarines.

Nagashek wrote:Cmon guys, let's be civil, yes? I acknowledge that I am clearly in the minority on the new Necron fluff. I've sold off my army, and now I don't have to play them OR endure this rewrite.

I did believe that the fluff needed expansion and explaination, but the full rewrite and retcon is pretty rediculous, and i don't like it. The insults are unnecessary.

Enjoy your honorbound alien spacemarines.

Honor bound? What?
Did you read the fluff?
Not all the crons are honor bound. In fact, most would willingly vaporize any-non cron that they come across.

The fluff had to change for numerous reasons. You also from a design standpoint can't have gods running around on the table. I felt the way dawn of war soulstorm handled lords and c'tan was a great direction.

It will be interesting to see how competitive necron armies will be structured. Sounds like Monoliths are out in favor of all the new vehicles.

Nagashek wrote:Cmon guys, let's be civil, yes? I acknowledge that I am clearly in the minority on the new Necron fluff. I've sold off my army, and now I don't have to play them OR endure this rewrite.

I did believe that the fluff needed expansion and explaination, but the full rewrite and retcon is pretty rediculous, and i don't like it. The insults are unnecessary.

Enjoy your honorbound alien spacemarines.

There is a single mad necron overlord who isn't aware he died and so goes about like he is a living honour-bound warrior.

corpsesarefun wrote:For lots of people a lack of fluff is a great chance to fill in their own backstory, necrons actually HAVING developed fluff means lots of their fanfluff and oh so deep alien motives have been invalidated.

Or it can be adapted.

As I said, my own Necron army is divided into wings. Each wing has a specific Lord and a style of combat, mostly centred around the types of units within (one has Warriors/Immortals, another Flayed Ones/Wraiths/Pariahs, another Destroyers, and the other Scarabs and Tomb Spyders). With this Overlord stuff and the various Tomb World ideas I can adapt that further and give it more character. I like that.

If only this newfound character hadn't come at the loss of the C'Tan though...

corpsesarefun wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Cmon guys, let's be civil, yes? I acknowledge that I am clearly in the minority on the new Necron fluff. I've sold off my army, and now I don't have to play them OR endure this rewrite.

I did believe that the fluff needed expansion and explaination, but the full rewrite and retcon is pretty rediculous, and i don't like it. The insults are unnecessary.

Enjoy your honorbound alien spacemarines.

There is a single mad necron overlord who isn't aware he died and so goes about like he is a living honour-bound warrior.

...who also appears to be the best model in terms of power for the book that has so far been discussed. We can rant about Draigo carving his name into the heart of a demon primarch but suddenly making fun of the honor-bound "I'm okay with aliens" crons is out of bounds? :shrug: Arright.

Nagashek wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Cmon guys, let's be civil, yes? I acknowledge that I am clearly in the minority on the new Necron fluff. I've sold off my army, and now I don't have to play them OR endure this rewrite.

I did believe that the fluff needed expansion and explaination, but the full rewrite and retcon is pretty rediculous, and i don't like it. The insults are unnecessary.

Enjoy your honorbound alien spacemarines.

There is a single mad necron overlord who isn't aware he died and so goes about like he is a living honour-bound warrior.

...who also appears to be the best model in terms of power for the book that has so far been discussed. We can rant about Draigo carving his name into the heart of a demon primarch but suddenly making fun of the honor-bound "I'm okay with aliens" crons is out of bounds? :shrug: Arright.

...What?
I do think you are mistaken. No one knows this guys power yet.
We only know the abilities of 2 Overlords
The Stormbringer
The Infinite

And none of them is that mad overlord who thinks he's fleshy.

Pariahs are really completely gone? Is that just from the fluff? Is there anything they can be proxied as? Their models sucked but I really liked the concept and the artwork.

George Spiggott wrote:Pariahs are really completely gone? Is that just from the fluff? Is there anything they can be proxied as? Their models sucked but I really liked the concept and the artwork.

There seem to be two different elites that can take glaive/halberd type options, so yes.

George Spiggott wrote:Pariahs are really completely gone? Is that just from the fluff? Is there anything they can be proxied as? Their models sucked but I really liked the concept and the artwork.

Yeah It looks like it. I also liked the concept of pariahs, that whole "new necron" thing.
Looks like I'll be using mine to represent Licheguard. Or maybe Crypteks if they look similar enough.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Cmon guys, let's be civil, yes? I acknowledge that I am clearly in the minority on the new Necron fluff. I've sold off my army, and now I don't have to play them OR endure this rewrite.

I did believe that the fluff needed expansion and explaination, but the full rewrite and retcon is pretty rediculous, and i don't like it. The insults are unnecessary.

Enjoy your honorbound alien spacemarines.

There is a single mad necron overlord who isn't aware he died and so goes about like he is a living honour-bound warrior.

...who also appears to be the best model in terms of power for the book that has so far been discussed. We can rant about Draigo carving his name into the heart of a demon primarch but suddenly making fun of the honor-bound "I'm okay with aliens" crons is out of bounds? :shrug: Arright.

...What?
I do think you are mistaken. No one knows this guys power yet.
We only know the abilities of 2 Overlords
The Stormbringer
The Infinite

And none of them is that mad overlord who thinks he's fleshy.

Was the Stormbringer NOT the guy who allied with the Blood Angels? Was the Strombringer also not the guy who can make the game Night Fight theo whole way through while striking units with lightning? If he's not the one, well, sorry then. Regardless, this is still a full rewrite of the backstory that I actually liked. If that makes me a Pariah, well then good news! Those aren't in this codex anymore either! Exeunt.

Looks cool. We'll see how it stacks up against the "chosen" armies.

I'm going to say the powerbase of the codex will be of Dark Eldar but a slight hand more forgiving. Nothing like Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Grey Knights.

I like the new fluff. Anything that makes the factions more complex and creates justifications for interactions between them more interesting than "Kill them all and vaporize their planet" is good with me.

I wish they hadn't nerfed living metal. Having a melta immune army would be a good thing from a metagame perspective.

I like the quantum shielding - interesting mechanic.

Although the chances of it actually happening is slim, I might do a tombworld based on a sort of vague communism. Use basic warriors with conversions for everything (Lord = plastic warrior with toga, cryptek = warrior with tools, etc.)

I think monoliths might still be good with that suck you into the gate power.

kestral wrote:I like the new fluff. Anything that makes the factions more complex and creates justifications for interactions between them more interesting than "Kill them all and vaporize their planet" is good with me.

I wish they hadn't nerfed living metal. Having a melta immune army would be a good thing from a metagame perspective.

I like the quantum shielding - interesting mechanic.

Although the chances of it actually happening is slim, I might do a tombworld based on a sort of vague communism. Use basic warriors with conversions for everything (Lord = plastic warrior with toga, cryptek = warrior with tools, etc.)

I think monoliths might still be good with that suck you into the gate power.

Agreed on the "factions".

Concerning the background:

1.) The change of background was done some time ago. We have evidence of the new direction in the old Apocalypse book and the "Fall of Damnos" novel. So the fistbump episode in the BA Codex is the consequence of said background change, not the cause.

2.) The background change offers more options for gamers, including old style robot-zombie hordes. So you can keep the "kill everything on sight" background for your army, but other gamers may chose something different, including the one noble option (a mirror of the Tau Codex where Farsight is presented for gamers not liking "The Greater Good").

3.) Such a constructive change and enrichment of background was last done in the Dark Eldar Codex by Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin (who helped with the background. As the Mat Ward Codices are always lacking in the background section and as there have been concrete rumours of him asking for help on this Codex' background, I assume that Phil and maybe Jes made the general outline for the new Necron background.

That said, I am excited about the new background and can hardly wait to read it in full.

First off, thanks for the rumors, Yak. Really like what I'm seeing with models, fluff and rules. I'm amused and gratified with the Cryptek/Wolf Guard approach since that's what I've promoted shamelessly for Pariahs on various internet forums, lol. Sad to see Pariahs go, but they needed a top-to-bottom rewrite, and there's an argument for them being rare on the battlefield. So I understand.

I'm not really interested in arguing whether people should be liking the new stuff or not. Different strokes for different folks. As I've said, Necrons were a bit of a conceptual mess, so it's not surprising different people were attracted to different aspects. Similarly, I agree with the previous poster that many people's fluff objections may be rooted in the fact that the fluff was so thin before, it required people to fill in with their own ideas. This is all what you get when a codex isn't updated for 8-9 years...dramatic change rather than more gradual shifts, and some putoff existing customers.

Altruizine wrote:Clearly, you are unfamiliar with current Tyranids fluff. The last codex did to them exactly what this codex is doing to Necrons. It sundered their aura of faceless unity, reduced the notion of an integrated universal Hivemind, and subdivided the creatures into differentiated categories with unique characteristics, from prideful warlords (Swarmlord) to lonely failed experiments (Ymgarl Genestealers).

Tyranid fluff -- and gameplay -- has changed with every incarnation. Not sure that's the best example.

Fluff changes. Armies change. That's the GW way. And that's not saying you have to like it. But you do have to come to terms with it if you're going to stick around the hobby for a while, you know?

BrookM wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Elaborate on that last bit Brook.

I got it from a novel that's due to be released soon.

Wow...I'll be definitely picking that one up. Now if we can only get some Mk.1 models outta FW...