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Just FYI, I'm mostly teasing about the Wood Elves

Though generally I don't find playing against them all that much fun *shrugs* Personal preference thing and all.

I still like to game with the 2nd. edd. Rules. The army book had ALL the Armys in it too..
'ahh good times, good times...'
My Warhammer armys book is kinda falling apart, would anyone know where i can pick up another?

But for the New rules.. Not too bad, i game Dwarfs, so its ok i guesss.. But not so many cannons for the new rules..
'Wipes tears..'

Init. Order, movement rumors, 2 ranks to negate rank bonuses to say a few.

The movement rumours sound weird I agree but I'll reserve judgment before I see the actual rules in print. However, fighting combats in initiative order and solo monsters and small units not negating rank bonuses are both wonderfully good changes.

Fighting in initiative order a wonderful good change? Hogwash! Where's the advantage to charging for the vast majority of units? You gonna give them +1A, like 40k? Oh, that's gonna keep us from building character delivery system lists!
A for needing a rank bonus to negate ranks, one more nail in the coffin of fast cavalry. Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?
Well, we'll wait and see if it's Warhammer 40k with square bases.

Any pics of the new models that come in the starter box? I could honestly care less about the rules :p

Yeah, really, Therion. Both of those changes are really terrible. They make no sense.

Though, I'm surprised I haven't seen a rumor about how spears gain ASF when charged. Makes a lot of sense, as when you charge a unit with spears, they push them right as you come into them, skewering you 2 feet away.

Durzod wrote: Fighting in initiative order a wonderful good change? Hogwash! Where's the advantage to charging for the vast majority of units? You gonna give them +1A, like 40k? Oh, that's gonna keep us from building character delivery system lists!

Man (I assume) has a point. There had better be something to compensate for this, or there is little point in charging to try and get the upper hand, a tactical level of play that will now be totally lost.

Durzod wrote:A for needing a rank bonus to negate ranks, one more nail in the coffin of fast cavalry. Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

Probably not, but heavy cav needed a nerf. Agree about the fast cav though.

As for the rumours in general, I liked them, until I heard that the character percentage is up to 25% lord, and a separate 25% heroes (whaddaya mean, let's nerf herohammer?), so up to 25%, and that some of the rules supposed to nerf the uber-heavy cav unitspam that I see too much of don't actually nerf them.
Magic gave me rather a meh feel with the highest to caster, lowest to dispeller thing - I don't like it.

Charging is just +1 Combat Resolution now, which - for some armies - won't make much a difference as they quickly lose it to the faster enemy causing two-or-more wounds than they would this edition if you got to strike first.

I-order is good for high-initiative combat armies (Dark Elves, High Elves, Forest Spirit, Daemons (?), Warriors of Chaos), and less-so for armies such as Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Ogres, and so on. The biggest loss, however, is that many Great Weapon units have been rendered obsolete: Iron Guts, for instance, relied on the fact that they were getting some 12-15 S6 attacks before you could strike (in addition to their 4-5 impact hits) to reduce attacks back against their WS3, T4, 5+ save, static-res one. Without that now, and the addition of two-rank fighting, stuff like Iron Guts or Bestigors are much less useful.

I agree on the GW wielding part....it really hurts my bestigors.

I KNOW I'm going to have to buy a whole new set of movement trays and consolidate my blocks into larger ones after 8th edition.

Ugh.

Minsc wrote:Charging is just +1 Combat Resolution now, which - for some armies - won't make much a difference as they quickly lose it to the faster enemy causing two-or-more wounds than they would this edition if you got to strike first.

I-order is good for high-initiative combat armies (Dark Elves, High Elves, Forest Spirit, Daemons (?), Warriors of Chaos), and less-so for armies such as Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Ogres, and so on. The biggest loss, however, is that many Great Weapon units have been rendered obsolete: Iron Guts, for instance, relied on the fact that they were getting some 12-15 S6 attacks before you could strike (in addition to their 4-5 impact hits) to reduce attacks back against their WS3, T4, 5+ save, static-res one. Without that now, and the addition of two-rank fighting, stuff like Iron Guts or Bestigors are much less useful.

What's really funny are the people that think this edition isn't going to make the current power armies even better and the crummier armies that much worse.

Its rumors, Ixquic. Some more-powerful armies are going to get nerfed, such as Vampire Counts. They will take a big hit.

So will Kairos Tzeentch circus lists, those will take a huge hit.

So, you are wrong judging by the rumors.

@Ixquic

Tell that to my Dwarves who are salivating at the new edition. The chance to on average gain 3" more than now on the charge. The ability to reform after driving someone off. The 2 ranks of extremely hard to kill models attacking. The ridiculous number of artillery that can be fielded alongside smashy units that will be able to fight now. Yep, a crummy army made crummier. And based on the rumors I'm actually excited for my Ogres.

@Hulksmash

I have to agree, Dwarfs are going to be so much more fun in 8th. Not to mention the no partials, thunderers in 2 ranks, and objectives that mean the enemy has to come to you to win!!! Unlimited dragon slayers may make them more playable as well.

Ogres I think are actually going to be good after 8th, which is an excellant indicator that unless they decide to nerf them on purpose... they will be in the upper half of the rankings after their books is updated.

To be fair, the "Ward or Regen" rumor being disproved does nothing to mitigate the staying power of Plague Bearers w/ Herald.

Durzod wrote: Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

The current rules say they're the AS disconcerting(both are exactly US10), so I don't think your logic there really stands up..

Platuan4th wrote:

Durzod wrote: Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

The current rules say they're the AS disconcerting(both are exactly US10), so I don't think your logic there really stands up..

This does not bother me I run my knights in units of 10 anyways and can run a huge block of them 10 wide 3 deep feel the pain weedy grots

sonofruss wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Durzod wrote: Are you telling me that 10
weedy little goblins poking at the side of a block of infantry
is more disconcerting and disruptive than 5 heavily armoured knights charging in on barded slathering chaos steeds?

The current rules say they're the AS disconcerting(both are exactly US10), so I don't think your logic there really stands up..

This does not bother me I run my knights in units of 10 anyways and can run a huge block of them 10 wide 3 deep feel the pain weedy grots

Fine, but when you run your 10-man unit of Knights and lose model, you also lose the ability to break ranks, which is something those 10 weedy goblins would be able still do.

Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

Which makes a lot of sense, considering. There's a reason armies moved towards MORE ranged weapons and not less. Melee just isn't as reliable.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

Which makes a lot of sense, considering. There's a reason armies moved towards MORE ranged weapons and not less. Melee just isn't as reliable.

I think it had more to with black powder. Muskets do more hurting than swords.

So is the Warhammer Fantasy World experiencing a "Industrial Revolution" of sorts? Less focused on melee combat and more on ranged?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Alll this worry about charging.

On the current rumours I'm having shooting spam lists (120-160 archers at 2000 points for most armies then add the warmachines) so charging will be the least of my worries.

I do think that chargers go first should have stayed, but its not like the designers don't playtest?

Right?
Guys?

This is pretty much what I'm really worried about breaking the game but I'm hoping that the scenarios balance it out or we're missing some part of the rules puzzle.

Minsc wrote:I-order is good for high-initiative combat armies (Dark Elves, High Elves, Forest Spirit, Daemons (?), Warriors of Chaos), and less-so for armies such as Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Ogres, and so on.

I play forest spirits, and am torn on this. It will be great for dryads, but not-so-much for treekin/treemen (with initiative 2 and 1 I think, off the top of my head)...

I guess I should have been a bit clearer about the weedy goblin bit, but it was late and us old guys lose coherency.
Let's look at it this way:
You have a block of, say,50 dwarves. They are engaged with an enemy block of similar size. Those dwarves not engaged in the fighting are helping to push their comrades forward (if you read your history, this is exactly how Greek Hoplites fought) in an effort to force the enemy back. (This is where the rule about rank bonus comes from)
Now you have two siuations come up.
Situation#1: 10 unarmoured infantry troopers(let's say they are weedy little goblins with sharpened sticks)attack the flank. Suddenly ALL the dwarves not actively fighting to the front throw up their hands in consternation and forget their duty to their comrades in the face of this dire threat.(They lose their rank bonus because the flanking unit has a rank bonus.)
Situation #2: 5 heavily armoured cavalry troopers, mounted on BIG heavy animals, who are also armoured, and armed with LONG lances slam at a gallop into the flank. The dwarves on that flank tell their comrades to,"Carry on lads. We can handle this." Trusting in their comrades, the majority of the dwarves continue to push forward. (they do not lose their rank bonus)
In both situations the flanking unit is US 10. Can you seriously say that this is right? Have you ever faced a cavalry charge? I haven't, but I've been around horses. I'm over 6 feet tall, but horses are BIG. Just standing there they're BIG. Moving they seem even bigger. God knows how big they look at the charge with some crazed loon with a spear on their backs. There's a reason cavalry was dominant for so long.

I see your point Durzod, and it makes sense.

I think what your saying is that Heavy Cavalry only needs one rank to take away rank bonuses, while non-heavy cavalry, need two ranks, yes?

Durzod wrote:Have you ever faced a cavalry charge? I haven't, but I've been around horses. I'm over 6 feet tall, but horses are BIG. Just standing there they're BIG. Moving they seem even bigger. God knows how big they look at the charge with some crazed loon with a spear on their backs. There's a reason cavalry was dominant for so long.

Indeed, this is why Heavy Cavalry at least should do impact hits, but this rumours of this seemed to disappear. Now it looks like only monster sized creatures will do impact hits *sigh*

Grimstonefire wrote: Unlimited dragon slayers may make them more playable as well

Ugh. I know these guys can die easily, but holy crap do I hate having to face even one of them (Totally blame the S3 of elves). Seriously, though, Dwarves are getting nice boosts all around with all these rumors.

My skaven are reeealllyyy looking forward to the new rumors.

Lots arent, but i wasnt one of those bell, furnace, furnace, HPA, HPA, 3 units of slaves TFG.

I think the money skaven army is going to be a lots of poison wind mortars backed up by plague claw catapults. No guess along with no partials is going to be insane.

Ixquic wrote:I think the money skaven army is going to be a lots of poison wind mortars backed up by plague claw catapults. No guess along with no partials is going to be insane.

Yeah, but I really have my doubts about removing guess weapons. Imagine a few lucky rolls, if the you hit head on and dont scatter with 2-3 war machines you could quite possible wipe out half their army...