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Made in nl
Zealous Knight






the Netherlands

I'd say so.
However the main reason KS doesn't allow raffles, I suspect, is wildly varying legislation regarding lotteries from place to place.

Now if this raffle only raffles something with no really tangible financial value a lot of that legislation just won't apply.
Not saying that goes for all of it and I'm making an assumption as to their reasoning here, but it might have something to do with it.

As soon as they raffle off even one mini though, they probably have a problem


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Sorry, but $60 is about 6 figures, and that's before they raised the price a bit with their plastics. You've got some VERY specific lists to fill out 30 soul stones for 60 bucks, with no variety. Dark Debts is $40 for... 18 points? Better spend that next $20 wisely. I'm sorry but some of the models are just stupid expensive for what they are (Hi Nekima!). A squirt of molten pewter on a 50mm base with a 20 soulstone stat card isn't a good value just because it fills up your warband quicker. A good number of the models themselves are just pricey for the sculpts and what they are.

Well, I've only just started looking into Malifaux but I believe Cult of december, essence of power, silent one x2 actually gets you precisely 35SS - which isn't good as I believe you'll actually want to leave one of the Gamin out to have a few SS to play with? I remember those models being advised as a good way to start Malifaux with, if you really wanted to go 'Tina. That's $59,50 MSRP for you there. I didn't actually try for that - this is just my to buy list, soon-ish (I think, Wyrds attitude with this KS has kind of turned me off of trying Malifaux for a while).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 00:38:54


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Yup raffles, lotteries and sweepstakes are specifically banned (prohibited items)

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines?ref=footer


as are coupons, discounts and cash value gift cards

and since I've seen several existing mini based KS offering one or more of these without issue, some as 'pick what you want from our online shop during the KS',

one at least with a flat out coupon spendable at some point in the future

but as with many things stuff can slip through the cracks if nobody complains

(but yes a backer dropping them a reminder would probably be smart as a big project with drop outs is more likely to attract complaints than a small project where folk are just looking for an excuse to spend more)


 
   
Made in nl
Zealous Knight






the Netherlands

Those latter three are banned because of KS doctrine though. Lotteries/raffles are banned because it's basically illegal to offer them without all kinds of specific measures in many places...
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Yeah, I think alerting them that they're breaking the TOS with Kickstarter is probably a good idea... I'd be interested in seeing the response (if any), too.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Bolognesus wrote:
I didn't actually try for that - this is just my to buy list, soon-ish (I think, Wyrds attitude with this KS has kind of turned me off of trying Malifaux for a while).


I'm right there, too. I like to dip my toes in first before I spend a lot with a company. I start out with a couple of models to see if I like their style. (Malifaux doesn't have many models I like already, and the prices make matters worse.) Then I read some of the backstory and see if I like it. (So far I haven't found a Malifaux book priced low enough for me to get it "just for fluff".) Finally, I'll try getting a small force together to paint up and write my own fluff, since I never get to game anymore. After playing some demo games and getting some of the plastics at SoCal Smackdown, I was interested in Malifaux. However, this Kickstarter has pretty much convinced me that Wyrd are a laughing stock and not worth the time or money. I think I've enjoyed this thread far, far more than I would enjoy any fluff that could possibly make sense out of all of their silly models.

   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

There's no end to the blind kool-aid drinking in the KS forum. I want to stop....but I just can't.....

About the same on Wyrds forum.

I think it's funny so many over there are talking about how "Wyrd is doing it like this for the LGS" but conveniently forge that Wyrd releases models at GenCon that LGSs can't get for months.

That dog just don't hunt.

 
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Alfndrate wrote:

Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS. And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.


Not all customers are looking to buy a whole army at once. It might be nice to hook someone with a small purchase that demonstrates good value. I know I've only bought one set of Malifaux figures, just to try painting them, because they are so expensive. Guess how many Reaper models I've bought despite never playing Warlord, DnD, Pathfinder, or any TT wargame? I'll give you a hint: it's a lot higher than $60 worth.


I'm trying to figure out what you deem to be expensive. Avoiding buying the deck because you can get a deck of cards and 6 dice for around dollar at Wal-Mart with a free cheat sheet off of Wyrd's Website, so Malifaux or Warmahordes, you've got your cheap alternative. Your average starter box costs anywhere between 27 and 37 USD. That's roughly 5 to 6 minis for that price. That makes each mini in the box anywhere from roughly 4 to 6 bucks a mini. Even pathfinder minis cost roughly that amount. Throw in the 15 dollar rules manual and you've got a fully legal army AND the core rules for around 50 bucks. Yes, Warmahordes can do the same thing for the same price, but you have to have a friend to get you that same price. So, I'm curious as to how you consider that expensive. Maybe if you don't play their game it's going to be expensive, but barring the new plastic starters, everything in those boxes you can get in blisters. I really don't care what you spend your money on. The most valuable figs in my gaming closest is the 88 dollars I spent on a case of dnd pre-painted minis, guess what... That's higher than 60 dollars as well.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:Sorry, byt $60 is about 6 figures, and that's before they raised the price a bit with their plastics. You've got some VERY specific lists to fill out 30 soul stones for 60 bucks, with no variety. Dark Debts is $40 for... 18 points? Better spend that next $20 wisely. I'm sorry but some of the models are just stupid expensive for what they are (Hi Nekima!). A squirt of molten pewter on a 50mm base with a 20 soulstone stat card isn't a good value just because it fills up your warband quicker. A good number of the models themselves are just pricey for the sculpts and what they are.


Nekima (who's only 13 soulstones, thanks for the hyperbole) is well known in the Malifaux community as being over costed for what she brings to the table and is currently being faq'd much like Hamelin the Plagued, who didn't cost enough for what he brought to the table. And yes, 35 dollars is a lot to spend on a metal model on a 50mm base... Oh wait, that's the price for the warjack kits isn't it... Don't they come on 50mm bases too? Sure you can get 3 jacks out of 1 kit, but you have to magnetize the kit, not everyone knows how to do that. A poster at the top of the page already pointed out the Rasputina box (31.50), an essence of power totem (9.00), and 2 silent ones (19.00 for the pair) is a decently competitive 35 soulstone list for a grand total of 59.50, but hey as you said, only suckers pay retail. You could get that from miniaturemarket for 44.62 plus the five dollars in shipping, dang you save money, what's stopping you from getting that?. You can give Tina some of her stones back by dropping one of the 3 ice gamins. Are there better lists for her? yes, but this list utilizes the basic tools for the master and is a great learning tool.
As for the Dark Debts box for 40? For 11 dollars more you buy the pack of beckoners and you have a 28 point list that gives Jakob Lynch 8 soulstones that he deperately needs. If you're willing to shell out an extra dollar you could instead buy the depleted and have a list that gives Jakob 7 soulstones in his starting cache and have 6 hardy minions on the board plus Hungering Darkness, the powerhouse of the crew. So yeah, for 60 bucks I can make a decent Jakob Lynch crew, though to be fair I'd probably ask for a little bit of spending money so I could buy the beckoners too, but that's just me wishing to use all of his good (non-character) pieces.
And if you want a decent tournament proven master?
How's about Pandora, using just her, the three sorrows and baby kade from her box(33.00), a primordial magic, Lelu and Lilitu (the twins) (all three models are 9.50 each) comes in at 61.50. I could at that point save money by buying Baby Kade, Pandora, and 3 sorrows, which would put me at 60 dollars even, though I feel that the addition of Candy is worth it.

So, please tell me how this game is expensive? 60 dollars is far within the impulse buy zone of the average table top gamer, considering the price of GW pieces, the price of single magic cards, and the price of RPG books and supplements. For the price of a HellDrake I can get a decently competitive army in Malifaux.

$12 for 3 rats is a nasty joke, particularly given how many you need. I always point people towards reaper's at $3.50 for 6.

Thanks, when I start Hamelin, I'll pick up a pack of Rats for the stat cards, and then go to reaper for the rest.

Seriously man, I get they give you little perks to cheerlead, but even still...

They don't give us perks to cheerlead. Forar and I are both Henchman, and he's been quite critical of this kickstarter. The difference is that I find very little fault with the value of what I'm getting in the kickstarter. I feel that my 125 is well spent, and I'll enjoy the game regardless, because I enjoy RPGs and have a handful of different books. Forar has to swallow 44 dollars of shipping to get his stuff shipped to Canada, which would make anyone cautious about the money their spending, and would hope that you can at least make your money back in backer rewards.

As for the "raffle" Mack mentioned, I have no doubt this is different than the GenCon Canon Campaign. For a few reasons
1) This seems kind of sprung to get people to back
2) The Canon Campaign Raffle will most likely take place once the backer surveys have been sent out to see if someone is going to GenCon or not.
3) KS tends to have to approve projects before they're put up, the Endless kickstarter was being put on hold by KS because OTL still owed a few people their figs (I was one of them).

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

While Wyrd isn't always perfect, I 100% agree with Alf-- Wyrd's crews are very affordable, and their minis are on par with just about any other skirmish setting in price and quality (the latter being subjective to a degree).


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in gb
Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot





Usually somewhere in England

My thoughts on the 'fun'... I think those who have pledged should not remain silent (we've had too many false starts with this campaign and they are running out of time to get it right!)

From my comments on the kickstarter: I'm interested to see what the fun is. At the minute, however, I'm more interested in a competitive deal. I don't want to 'win' stuff. I pledge, support the campaign and receive benefits in return (zombicide and sedition wars are my comparisons).
So far, the sprue concept art (I would have thought we could see more though), plus faith that Wyrd is a reliable, quality games company has kept me hanging on. Mack's done a good job keeping me involved in this kickstarter too, but the stretch goals suggest the game will be half finished at this point and that worries me.

Laney

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 09:40:29


 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

Very nicely put, Laney, other than following Mack (I haven't really), I agree on your succinct assessment of the KS campaign.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Alfndrate wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Not all customers are looking to buy a whole army at once. It might be nice to hook someone with a small purchase that demonstrates good value. I know I've only bought one set of Malifaux figures, just to try painting them, because they are so expensive. Guess how many Reaper models I've bought despite never playing Warlord, DnD, Pathfinder, or any TT wargame? I'll give you a hint: it's a lot higher than $60 worth.


I'm trying to figure out what you deem to be expensive. Avoiding buying the deck because you can get a deck of cards and 6 dice for around dollar at Wal-Mart with a free cheat sheet off of Wyrd's Website, so Malifaux or Warmahordes, you've got your cheap alternative. Your average starter box costs anywhere between 27 and 37 USD. That's roughly 5 to 6 minis for that price. That makes each mini in the box anywhere from roughly 4 to 6 bucks a mini. Even pathfinder minis cost roughly that amount. Throw in the 15 dollar rules manual and you've got a fully legal army AND the core rules for around 50 bucks. Yes, Warmahordes can do the same thing for the same price, but you have to have a friend to get you that same price. So, I'm curious as to how you consider that expensive. Maybe if you don't play their game it's going to be expensive, but barring the new plastic starters, everything in those boxes you can get in blisters. I really don't care what you spend your money on. The most valuable figs in my gaming closest is the 88 dollars I spent on a case of dnd pre-painted minis, guess what... That's higher than 60 dollars as well.


I don't want to buy a starter set. Let me be blunt: there is not one single box set of Malifaux models that contains only models worth owning. Individual models are too expensive an impulse buy for what they are (interesting at best), while the boxes of three plastics tend to go: 1 awesome model, 1 decent model, 1 model I wouldn't take for free, for a price that could buy me ten nice enough plastic models from Mantic or 30 pretty good models from WGF that I can convert without worrying if I screw something up, or 10 Bones models or... well, lots of things that rule better than "I guess it's Cajun cheesepunk?" models for a background that doesn't interest me. For their aesthetic, Malifaux models are expensive.

You are still talking about the price of a whole army compared to another whole army. Not every person buys models in terms of whole armies. In fact, I would bet most people try out new ranges by the individual box. If there is no "why not?" bait-and-hook box to nab a potential customer with that first sale, then that can be a significant barrier to entry.




So, please tell me how this game is expensive? 60 dollars is far within the impulse buy zone of the average table top gamer, considering the price of GW pieces, the price of single magic cards, and the price of RPG books and supplements. For the price of a HellDrake I can get a decently competitive army in Malifaux.


Are you gaming with Will Smith or something? $60 (plus the time investment to assemble and paint the models, and to learn the rules for an actual gamer) does not sound like an impulse buy to me.



   
Made in gb
Major




London

In spite of my dissatisfaction with Wyrd as a company, Malifaux isn't an expensive game to play. The rulebook download helps with initial startup costs, but for some reason Wyrd filled it with a load of markups and rubbish blocking some of the info.........
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
In spite of my dissatisfaction with Wyrd as a company, Malifaux isn't an expensive game to play. The rulebook download helps with initial startup costs, but for some reason Wyrd filled it with a load of markups and rubbish blocking some of the info.........
You mean blocking out the artwork? Yea, I think it's suppose to be some sort of incentive to get you to go out and actually buy the physical rulebook some day. Not the way I would have done the .pdf rules but then they never asked me, did they?

 
   
Made in gb
Major




London

 Breotan wrote:
Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
In spite of my dissatisfaction with Wyrd as a company, Malifaux isn't an expensive game to play. The rulebook download helps with initial startup costs, but for some reason Wyrd filled it with a load of markups and rubbish blocking some of the info.........
You mean blocking out the artwork? Yea, I think it's suppose to be some sort of incentive to get you to go out and actually buy the physical rulebook some day. Not the way I would have done the .pdf rules but then they never asked me, did they?


I had the mini rulebook already (got all of the books apart from the latest one) and downloaded PDF when whoring the game to a friend. Very odd seeing bits crossed out and stamped over. Artwork is fair enough, but I think some of the diagrams and scenarios were lost as well.

This KS may have had a lot of problems, but it's certainly been entertaining to follow! Might chuck 'em a dollar just for that.
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don't want to buy a starter set. Let me be blunt: there is not one single box set of Malifaux models that contains only models worth owning. Individual models are too expensive an impulse buy for what they are (interesting at best), while the boxes of three plastics tend to go: 1 awesome model, 1 decent model, 1 model I wouldn't take for free, for a price that could buy me ten nice enough plastic models from Mantic or 30 pretty good models from WGF that I can convert without worrying if I screw something up, or 10 Bones models or... well, lots of things that rule better than "I guess it's Cajun cheesepunk?" models for a background that doesn't interest me. For their aesthetic, Malifaux models are expensive.


That's fine all of that is opinion, but when metal pathfinder models are priced similarly to the Malifaux figs it comes down to what you like in a miniatures aesthetic. Your last line is the only thing that needs to be said, you find the Malifaux models expensive because you don't like their look. Fine, I'm not shoving the models down your throat.


You are still talking about the price of a whole army compared to another whole army. Not every person buys models in terms of whole armies. In fact, I would bet most people try out new ranges by the individual box. If there is no "why not?" bait-and-hook box to nab a potential customer with that first sale, then that can be a significant barrier to entry.


Except that I compared model to model (Nekima vs. Warjack Kit), I listed army lists for 60 dollars because someone told me that it's not easily done, and I compared whole armies to single models (army lists vs HellDrake). If you want to buy a single model to paint and display, you should probably stick to an aesthetic you like and honestly not buy models that don't appeal to you, not trying to be mean with that one, but that's a pretty basic thing when talking about the hobby we all share on this site.



So, please tell me how this game is expensive? 60 dollars is far within the impulse buy zone of the average table top gamer, considering the price of GW pieces, the price of single magic cards, and the price of RPG books and supplements. For the price of a HellDrake I can get a decently competitive army in Malifaux.


Are you gaming with Will Smith or something? $60 (plus the time investment to assemble and paint the models, and to learn the rules for an actual gamer) does not sound like an impulse buy to me.


The first part of your statement has no bearing on the second. Who I game with doesn't determine how I spend my money. Impulse buying RARELY takes the assembling and painting time into the purchase, because it's based on emotion which can be caused simply be the aesthetics of the models, just ask Dakkanauts how many boxes of models they have sitting around still in boxes, assembled and primed, or in some weird stage of both of those, and then ask why they bought it. It's usually, "I had plans to start an army, or I liked the look of it, or it's the new hotness for my army and I wanted to pick it up, idk if i'll use it." The impulse buy comes from the fact that like you, I'm a wargamer and I spend my time building, assembling, painting and playing. If you compare that 60 dollars for an army to a video game (which are 60 dollars brand new) which many people go in, and say, "hey I want to try this game." and they pick up w/e the new fangled hot gak is this week, they drop 60 bucks and they go on their way. I'm not quite sure where you think 60 dollars is expensive, since you haven't really explained that. If it is, you probably shouldn't be wargaming (as it has been said in many of the threads on this site from people asking for free models.

But you don't want me to compare a whole army to Malifaux, so I'll tell you about my impulse buy into Malifaux, because I apparently game with Will Smith. So it was two summers ago, I had just heard of Malifaux through the Eternal Warriors Podcast while vacationing in SoCal, I may have even seen you there, who knows. So one afternoon I hopped in my private limo and drove to the a local gaming store. Walked in, and went an looked at the Malifaux stuff, knowing next to nothing about the game, other than it was kind of steampunk, and that it used cards instead of dice (that mechanic is what drew me in, my solid gold diamond encrusted dice suck). So I walked over to the small Malifaux section, saw a few of the boxes, and looked at a name I knew (Lady Justice). Picked her box up and the Rules Manual. Started looking at boxes Will Smith might like, based on what I knew he played (Cryx and Necrons). So I figured Ressers would be a nice adversary to my Lady Justice. I picked up two fate decks of the Ressers and Guilds colors, and walked up to the man and paid in a couple hundreds, ya know walking around cash. I walked out, called a guy, and bought place so I could always have a place to game with Willy. So there you have it, I bought 2 boxes, 2 fate decks, and the rules manual all because I had heard a single thing about the game that interested me, and it had nothing to do with the models really. I could have been screwed and hated the game, in fact after that first playthrough with my buddy, which you can read here, I got so many of the rules wrong and he was able to count the cards I had played, that it wasn't very fun, but I asked henchmen, and people I knew that played the game and I realized, "oh crap, I screwed up a lot." It wasn't originally, but the game has quickly become my favorite game to play.. *


* - Author's Note: I played with a skinny kid named Brandon in the basement of my dorm room during a summer that I worked at school, but I did really buy 2 boxes, 2 decks and the rules simply because the card mechanic interested me.

Edit: Now if you'll excuse me, I have gak to do, you're all free to continue to discuss this kickstarter, though I'm not sure why many of you are dedicating your time to this thread, it seems like a waste of time imo. brb, I hear the sun's shining this morning. Happy New Year!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/01/01 15:28:54


DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in gb
Speed Drybrushing





The eye of terror

Yeah I cancelled my pledge a few days ago, I've been seriously underwhelmed especially as this was my first kickstarter, it's been nothing but disappointment. I know one shouldn't really draw direct comparisons but I've always felt a little left out when I nervously avoided other projects that became nothing short of astounding as they reached the closing point, this is quite clearly not the case with this project. I was planning to get into Malifaux tabletop which is why I pledged in the first place, I love reading the lore behind a game and this was just a way to get even more of it for me. Although a chance to play an RPG wouldn't have gone amiss I sold all my DnD and WoD books not long after I finished uni as they were gathering dust. But after the way this has been handled I'm not sure I'll even get into the tabletop now if this is their attitude with that line also.

My money is moving over to Gates of Antares already managed to snag the early backer cheap pledge, so cross fingers I won't end up disappointed with my second kickstarter too.


- In progress 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[Jǫtunn]






.

-3 backers over the last 7 days (with 4 of those days have zero or less!) has got to set off some sort of warning bells at Wyrd Central, doesn't it?

There's no way they don't try some sort of damage control/customer relations/etc. move, right?



   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I doubt it makes them happy,

but whether it will make much difference depends on how dependant they are on the KS to fund their project

and what wiggle room they actually have. Thinks presumably having been costed (and delivery scheduled) for this level of stuff

If they did splash out and throw more stuff at the project to boost it/keep existing backers that will take cash out of the project so might have to mean re-jigging the stretch goals to make them wider

(so you either loose some already gained, or the next one being pushed way out into the long grass).

The only real 'cost free' option is to add in 'dead' stock you have to hand like the convention models. But even that's a risk if it means you end up having to do another production run

(can their caster squeeze an extra run into the schedule ? If not can you afford to drop a model you planed to release to free up a slot to use etc)

Another 'minimal' cost option would be to offer digital versions of the next RPG book release to backers... but that risks future sales and shops deciding to give that one a miss (maybe release it 3-6 months after the paper product?)

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Quite the contrary. I think what they could (should?) add is more RPG-material (adventures, sourcebooks, etc..), only delivered at a later date than the initial product.

That would not only provide incentives for (potential) backers, it would also:

1. Demonstrate that Wyrd's not gonna close their "RPG-Department" once the most profitable piece of any RPG, the core rules, are shipped.
2. Convince stores thinking about stocking the Malifaux RPG that the game has some miles to run
3. Convince post-Kickstarter shoppers (of the non-miniature playing kind) that buying the rulebook isn't going to leave them sitting on an unsupported RPG line.

What's the harm in saying something like "we're so overwhelmed with the support there, we'll do some additional adventures. But since we need to work it out first, it'll ship 6 month or a year later".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 17:28:48


   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

 Alfndrate wrote:
Seriously man, I get they give you little perks to cheerlead, but even still...

They don't give us perks to cheerlead. Forar and I are both Henchman, and he's been quite critical of this kickstarter. The difference is that I find very little fault with the value of what I'm getting in the kickstarter. I feel that my 125 is well spent, and I'll enjoy the game regardless, because I enjoy RPGs and have a handful of different books. Forar has to swallow 44 dollars of shipping to get his stuff shipped to Canada, which would make anyone cautious about the money their spending, and would hope that you can at least make your money back in backer rewards.


Have I ever!

I kid. I've always tried to coach my critiques constructively, but at the same time as a consumer without unlimited funding, I have to make choices like most any other gamer, and can't simply throw $160-270 at a KS and brush my hands of the matter, especially if I want to buy in on a terrain kickstarter, and am keeping an eye out for a Robotech one that might pop up in January, and have a possible Gencon trip to ponder, etc, etc. That extra $45 stings, and honestly if Santana continues to look unlikely I'm probably going to drop back down to the middle tier. As much as I'd like to hook my friend up with a copy of the books as well, he may well end up getting them cheaper at retail than I get them from the KS when accounting for said S&H, and I'm not sold on spending $50 for a second deck and the doll alone. I've been a firm advocate of the middle tiers; you either get two copies of the books and a little swag, or one set and some solid minis/swag. The Gaming Room one has needed attention since release, and thus far the only thing they've done to sweeten the deal is to give people a shot at Santana that's looking less and less likely as the days go by. It's not impossible that 138+ people will join that tier (above and beyond those that leave, as well), but needing an average of ~14 per day at this point, it's gonna be tough.

Also it continues to annoy me that I'm paying the same S&H as Australia. A lot of KS's and Ebay sellers do this. Doesn't annoy me any less. >.<

As for the "raffle" Mack mentioned, I have no doubt this is different than the GenCon Canon Campaign. For a few reasons
1) This seems kind of sprung to get people to back
2) The Canon Campaign Raffle will most likely take place once the backer surveys have been sent out to see if someone is going to GenCon or not.
3) KS tends to have to approve projects before they're put up, the Endless kickstarter was being put on hold by KS because OTL still owed a few people their figs (I was one of them).


I'll admit I'm a mix of hopeful and wary of the 'contest' or game or whatever we're going to see. I like the idea of throwing a puzzle to the community as a unique way of unlocking a bonus, perk or whatnot, outside of funding. Give all those people with idle hands and worn out F5 keys a chance to put that (rightfully) anxious energy to use. I'm curious to see how the 'individuals' will win things in a way that entices people in without turning people off by becoming more things (swag, opportunities, whatever) that they miss out on. I'm not hating on the idea that "someone might get something I don't, waaah!", simply noting that given the example of how much of a boost Miss T seemed to give and the giant slump that followed, having something else the community can grumble about might be problematic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happy New Years!
Update #24 · Jan. 01, 2013 · comment
Salutations!

Same old Mack, brand new year! I realized yesterday that I didn't say there wouldn't be an update today, so I should probably do one! The Wyrd staff will be back in the offices tomorrow (currently we are split between different states), so tomorrow is the big day. We'll be looking at a variety of fun opptions for the last week of the Kickstarter, so hopefully those announcements can go in tomorrow's update.

As well, the latest Breach Side Chat will go up on youtube, and there will be a brand new episode airing tomorrow night, at 6pm pst. So don't forget to post your questions in the comment section with the tag line @BreachSide so that I'm sure to see them!

There has been quite a bit of discussion both in the comments section, as well on the forums, about a variety of topics, and today I thought I would bite into one and try to illuminate some of the process. In this case, the book plan.

Currently, Through The Breach is still being written. While a good chunk is ready for layout, and we should be able to start genuine internal testing reasonably soon, there are still vast swatches of both books that need to be written. On the book plan graphic, we list the page numbers that we can absolutely commit to at certain pledge levels. But those aren't steps, that's a slope. A book, when assembled, is a multiple of 4 pages, and page counts are never exact. When we post 200 pages, its likely the book will come in more around 208, or 212. I'm not going to cut things if its not crucial to do so.

When I look to add topics, like say Pursuits, having more pages lets me do that sort of thing in a much more robust way. There is a difference between putting the rules in the book, and giving a few key examples, than say, putting in an entire chapter of Advanced Pursuits with rules for modifying them.

The big thing to remember, is that we are trying to bring the fans into the design process as early as possible. This is a grand experiment for us. Nobody has built an RPG in this way. There is still a lot of work to be done. Locking in to exact page counts, without any wiggle room, would spell disaster. I need the flexibility to add things that we, as a community, build during the design process.

So when we look at the current design plan, it's just that... a plan. Sometimes plans need to adjust, in this case, updwards. Currently we are committed to 200 pages per book, that's 400 pages total (about the same size as most other RPGs). Those are minimums. I'm not going to cut important sections out if I can fit them in. I simply know, that without question, that's the minimum size the books will be. I know, that if we hit certain pledge levels, I'll have all the room I need to add topics in a robust way.

As we proceed towards completion, I might discover something totally new, something we didn't think about yet. A fan might have a brilliant idea, or playtesting might bring to light that a system needs more pages. We'll need that flexibility.

Anyhoo, I've prattled on long enough. Tomorrow is the big day, everyone is back, and we have a lot to discuss from your comments and suggestions over the last week. I've managed to build a damage system I'm pretty happy with, as well as a few other things, while working at home... but it's going to be nice to be back in the office with all my coworkers!

And again, Happy New Years!


Huh, I didn't expect an update today, and it's nice to have some of the ... 'heated and passionate discussion' recognized, even if in just about the most politely diplomatic way possible.

As noted before, Mack Martin is a PR viking, and whatever they are paying him, it should probably go up.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/02 00:11:31


 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

It's a strange bit of an update, isn't it? It basically seems to be conceding what everyone has been saying, that the "plan" doesn't really correspond directly to what they are actually going to produce... which makes perfect sense, really. Making the books sub-par for the sake of keeping in line with what they claimed they could do in the campaign would be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

All they need to do is say something like "Mack has been working like a Neverborn, it looks like we're going to have X after all!" or something more punny. Not up enough on the lore for the exact wording.

Some of this is pure hyperbole though; "The big thing to remember, is that we are trying to bring the fans into the design process as early as possible. This is a grand experiment for us. Nobody has built an RPG in this way."

Seriously? So many things wrong there...

1) Wizards of the Coast says "Hi". That's just silly, "Nobody has built an RPG in this way"? The largest name in RPGs has been engaged in exactly this.

2) By his own admission, "While a good chunk is ready for layout, and we should be able to start genuine internal testing reasonably soon, there are still vast swatches of both books that need to be written." So... what exactly will people be able to influence in the design? The forums won't be up for some time, they are going to start internal testing and it rather sounds like the mechanics are set.

As many have pointed out, designing an RPG is a long, painstaking process. In order for them to have a chance of meeting their deadlines, they have to be well along. Being well along is mutually exclusive with bringing people in "as early as possible".

A good soldier, but that he is even being put into this position is simply sad.

   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

Yeah, but unlike DNDNext, hopefully TtB will actually be good. [/obviousjoke]
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

Forar wrote:
Yeah, but unlike DNDNext, hopefully TtB will actually be good. [/obviousjoke]


Oooh, snap! As a 4venger, I take no position on the merits of D&DNext, heh, I only point out its existence.

   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 Buzzsaw wrote:
As a 4venger, I take no position on the merits of D&DNext, heh, I only point out its existence.


Ouch, I'm sorry. There are complimentary tissues over by the 3.5 and earlier editions sitting in the corner


I like the update, it does serve to answer a lot of the complaints, which shows that at least someone at Wyrd is taking note. And Forar is right, Mack is a god danged beast trying to fix the PR for this campaign.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

I don't understand why he's the one that's doing it. Don't they have someone who's job title is PR Guy?

 
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 cincydooley wrote:
I don't understand why he's the one that's doing it. Don't they have someone who's job title is PR Guy?


Probably? I'm trying to remember all the people that I know of that work at wyrd. I know there's Nathan, Eric, Justin, Mack, Casey, and Jac... Those are the people that I know of that work in the office. There's also Ratty and Keltheos who do writing, rules testing, and in Ratty's case a lot of coding and rules marshaling. I'm sure they have a PR guy, I'm just not sure who it is.

It might also be a case of the fact that Mack just isn't using vacation time over the holidays like others are, and as such is taking over those duties.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in gb
Major




London

 Alfndrate wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
I don't understand why he's the one that's doing it. Don't they have someone who's job title is PR Guy?


Probably? I'm trying to remember all the people that I know of that work at wyrd. I know there's Nathan, Eric, Justin, Mack, Casey, and Jac...


Might be a good idea for Wyrd to keep Nathan away from any more PR.

Eric J was always good at it when I used to follow the game more closely, should get him on the case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/02 10:26:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





New Jersey, USA

 cincydooley wrote:
I don't understand why he's the one that's doing it. Don't they have someone who's job title is PR Guy?


Wyrd is still a pretty small company in any industry but the gaming industry. With a company this size most people wear more then one hat.

From what I understand Jac is the one who's been answering comments and sending out the daily "update". Overall I've found the updates that Mack has done to much better not just in content, but excitment about the project. I've never met Jac and she could be the worlds nicest person but I just don't get that she's that interested in this project.

It's going to be interesting to see just what Wyrd has up it's sleeve for the final weekish of their project. In my opinion it's still not to late for them to fix things.


 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

One of the oddest issues is related to having Mack do the updates: the start difference in interaction in this campaign versus... well, pretty much any campaign I have seen.

To illustrate with some recent campaigns I have participated in, with the number of creator comments* (total) in ();
Dreamforge Games: 2,303 comments, (437),
Damsels of Darkmyre: 1,625 comments (680),
Imbrian Arts Miniatures: 1,253 comments (259),
Kingdom Death: Monster: 16,658 comments (609),
Through the Breach: A Malifaus Roleplaying Game: 695 comments (63).

Looking at those numbers, it's rather amazing: there is an order of magnitude(!) of difference between the number of comments on KD:M and Through the Breach. Even more amazing is the fact that these is a similar order of magnitude difference between the number of comments by the creators: Wyrd has so few comments it's simply astonishing. It's all well and good for Wyrd to hold the posture that they don't want to harm retail store sales or become a bonanza, but what possible excuse is there for the incredible scarcity of communication?

Consider, even with this depressing level of increase, this campaign will net them something like $150,000 for 45 days of campaigning. They couldn't afford to have anyone even part-time answering comments and concerns on a project that is making them more then $3k a day? There is not running a normal campaign, and there is what can only be called disinterest.

*N.B., I did not manually count the creator comments, the number (#) is the number of total comments on their use page. Thus there is no doubt some degree of false positives, but it seems reasonable to presume the majority of comments are related to their own campaigns.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





New Jersey, USA

Techincally there is a lower percentage of comments on the Kingdom Death KS coming from the creator, roughly around 3%. Through the Breach comes in around 9%. I get where your going with this though, and I do have an answer for you. Simpley put the creator of this project isn't the one commenting on peoples comments, which makes it different then any of the other kickstarters listed.

I get what your saying though, but great communication is never something I've credited Wyrd with.

Only a few more hours until we get to see just what their going to change.


 
   
 
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