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Alpharius wrote:Really? I don't think I've seen serious accusations of either if those things in here, though I haven't been religiously monitoring this thing either...

Sorry, here are the exact quotes:

I'm beginning to realize just how in lockstep with Wyrd you really are...

And you need to stand up straight and tuck your shirt in - your Wyrd knickers are showing!

Forgive me for using kool-aid, I was always taught to not plagiarize.

Buzzsaw wrote:Oh, to be sure. There is a rather nice thread on Reapers forums about starting up a campaign. The important issue though, is that while you were prepared up to $500k, you (I presume) weren't depending on making $100k or $200k in order to get the product properly done. Here is seems like they picked the initial $30k out of a hat and then simply assumed they were going to get to $300k in short order and start working on the 8 expansion books they keep pimping.

Gods no, and to be honest, I think that might be an issue. OTL is small in comparison to Wyrd, and it's probably Wyrd's initial thought of being too big to fail. They knew that the diehards would probably pledge and they would have no issue reaching 30k, set that up with a decent early pledge reward, and you're pulling in more people than initially thought. It burns out because you're right there is very little to keep people pledging.

I suppose to be very technical, the difference is between what one expects, and what is being relied on. It seems that they relied on getting to $250,000 or more, and the project is suffering for the miscalculation.

Agreed


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Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Paizo website currently lists the Beastiary 3 at $40.00 plus shipping, you can't go by wholesalers/discounters when making a comparision.

Actually, I can. Since its how I, and most other people, buy things. Granted, Wyrd has always been very expensive, but still...

Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS. And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.

 BrookM wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
I prefer hardback RPG books myself, means it takes less blows to bring an unruly player back into line.

Personally I much prefer a combination of metal dice and elastic bands for that; leaves less marks!
...On the tools that is - feth the player

Good luck prying those fethers out of walls and skulls.

Apply vaseline liberally before launch

The discussion of where the book is bought is missing the point.

We were told the books would be available from the KS for roughly 1/3 off retail. The bottom tier has both books for $60, leading one to conclude (given that they're apparently going to be the same size) that they're likely about $30 each, which makes the final retail price in the $40-45 range.

Presumably it will show up on Amazon for their usual 10-30% off (given that the average retail markup is 100%, this still turns a profit, but they make up a lower margin with lower overhead and vast quantities of product moved). Meaning that the baseline entry point is... essentially what you're likely to pay at release from Amazon.

If you live in the US.

If you live outside the US you end up paying $41 apiece, quite possibly paying literally MSRP or more.

The higher tiers depend on a lot of unknown factors. We can make educated guesses how much things like the fate deck and MPM's would be at retail, as Wyrd produces similar products already. Things like the doll are interesting but not a hit with everyone, and as Buzzsaw has discussed on the KS comments page, unique to each individual. Aside from "what it costs to actually make them / what they'd sell for as an MSRP", the rarity/individuality will skew people high or low as it does or doesn't appeal to them.

It's possible Hannah will go for $Texas on ebay, but I have doubts. Anyone so enthusiastic about snagging that they'd potentially spend Santana or NE LCB type amounts on it (100-250+) will likely just get their own now. Sure, some people will miss the KS, but the supply will quite likely have at least met a good portion of the demand. Seems like a safe bet it'll fall in a reasonable 25-50 range like many of the other LE figures.

For some people, getting a mix of products for slightly below MSRP is enough. However, as enthusiastic as I am and have been for the campaign, seeing it stall out for the past few weeks is problematic. One doesn't have to be a blind supporter or utterly negative to have criticisms and concerns, and watching us stall out while what could be excellent parts of the core books may be put off (potentially to later releases, possibly in 2014 or beyond given that they said they were aiming at a couple of books per year, not a slew of releases) has been troublesome. Seriously, in a week we had a net change of 0 backers and a gain of a grand. As has been noted earlier, 3/4 of the support showed up in the first 3 days. While that extra 1/4 isn't inconsiderable, it almost seems with hindsight like this might've had a much more solid buzz had they just made it a 2-4 week drive (perhaps shifted away from the holidays) and made sure the concept art and stretch goals were available from day one.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?

Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?

Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.

You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...

If you're referring to the Bestiary 3, you're sadly mistaken, and it's quite the comparison I'd like to make. Though upon initial inspection, the only book that amazon lists at 23 USD is the Monster Manual 3 for 4th ed. So... The Monster Manual 3 for DnD 4th edition not 23, it's 34.99 from the retailer, which is the price you need to compare them at. Yes, it's 224 pages, it's full color, and it's hardback. But can you tell me (if you own this book) do you get 35 dollars worth of play out of this that you won't get out of a similarly priced book that is the ONLY way to add RPG monsters into your games? I own 2 Pathfinder Bestiaries, and maybe 2 monster manuals from 3.5 in hardcover form. I rarely go beyond Bestiary 1 in Pathfinder and rarely do I need anything outside of MM1 from 3.5

You're losing even more ground if you want to compare base rulebooks to this. The players handbook is $23 for 320 pages. Pathfinder core is $32 for 576 pages. And yes, I can go by Amazon prices, because full retail is for suckers in this day and age and its how a large portion of sales are made. However, its not like I pay retail for my Malifaux figs either. And this is what really annoys me. Even compared to themselves, the $60 level is poor value. Off Miniature Market, where I get a lot of my figs, the Malifaux core rulebook is $26 for 234 pages. So really anyone at the $60 level not getting a MIss T is better off canceling their pledge, and picking up the books through Amazon, Mini Market, The War Store, or any other discounter. And that's everyone at that level at this point. Unless you think Wyrd is really going to try and pass these for $45+ each at retail ...$10 over their similar page count core book. And that's assuming this thing hits $225k to get up to 228 pages, which is kind of doubtful given how its run. Seriously, the players books wont contain the basic world history and the game master book wont have the secret setting info otherwise?

Wyrd's whole "screw you if you don't want to give us extra money a year in advance... you're just being greedy" attitude have really turned me off from them as a company.


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 Catyrpelius wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
I prefer hardback RPG books myself, means it takes less blows to bring an unruly player back into line.

I prefer them to, but there is just as large a grrup that doesn't like them.

And just as many people prefer eating poop to being given free money! I said it on the internet so its true!

I was browsing through kicktraq and what's shocking is the loss of backers. I looked at the top 10 or so and no others have a net backer loss at all. That in itself is troubling.

As to the $30k initial, it means one of two things:

1. It's a completely disingenuous number that they tossed out (this has been alluded to) that has no relatively bearing on what $$ funding the actually need. I have a big problem with this. I said it before, but who is to say what these funds are for? Most other KSers give a clear listing of what they'll be using the successful funding amount for. Perhaps KS doesn't require it. Maybe they should.

2. Wyrd is inept and unable to correctly project what they need and should make. If, as their list alludes, that they actually need $250k to make a complete product, then their projection is $50k off and someone should be fired.

So they're arrogant liars or they're inept. Not sure which is more disconcerting.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
You're losing even more ground if you want to compare base rulebooks to this. The players handbook is $23 for 320 pages. Pathfinder core is $32 for 576 pages. And yes, I can go by Amazon prices, because full retail is for suckers in this day and age and its how a large portion of sales are made. However, its not like I pay retail for my Malifaux figs either. And this is what really annoys me. Even compared to themselves, the $60 level is poor value. Off Miniature Market, where I get a lot of my figs, the Malifaux core rulebook is $26 for 234 pages. So really anyone at the $60 level not getting a MIss T is better off canceling their pledge, and picking up the books through Amazon, Mini Market, The War Store, or any other discounter. And that's everyone at that level at this point. Unless you think Wyrd is really going to try and pass these for $45+ each at retail ...$10 over their similar page count core book. And that's assuming this thing hits $225k to get up to 228 pages, which is kind of doubtful given how its run. Seriously, the players books wont contain the basic world history and the game master book wont have the secret setting info otherwise?

I haven't compared RPG books since page 3 of this thread before we had an idea of these books, and even then I suggested then that if they're even roughly the same size and quality of comparative RPG books, 30 to 35 dollars for roughly 200 pages of content is still decent at the quality of Wyrd's previous books. I pointed out back then that the Pathfinder Core Rules is the end all be all of basically everything you could hope for in an RPG book. The only thing that it's missing is monster information, and even if you split that book into a DMG and a PHB you'd probably have 2 books roughly 250 pages each at least. I could see the PHB side of things being 300 and the DMG side being 276, they would probably still charge 35 dollars LIKE EVERY OTHER RPG BOOK ON THE MARKET! And Wyrd doesn't care where you buy their models from. Like with every other retailer, the price on their website is a bigger profit for them, and yet with the exception of GenCon, Wyrd always says to buy from your flgs. If you prefer to buy from MIniatureMarket that's fine and that's your prerogative. I buy from my flgs because he gets in stock and he let's me run events there free of charge and gives me as much space as I need. My old store? not so much, so I bought through miniature market. And the phrase "full retail is for suckers" all depends on your perception. I support my flgs because without him I wouldn't have public play space. This may not be true at your store. Or you might be a home gamer. And at 23 dollars for a rulebook (outside of an older GW codex) any book is a nice price, which is why you compare it at retail because not everyone buys through amazon. Like I said, please prove your statement.

Wyrd's whole "screw you if you don't want to give us extra money a year in advance... you're just being greedy" attitude have really turned me off from them as a company.

They've never said this. In fact they said they don't care if you wait until it's released. Again, that's your prerogative.

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 Catyrpelius wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
I prefer hardback RPG books myself, means it takes less blows to bring an unruly player back into line.

I prefer them to, but there is just as large a grrup that doesn't like them.

And just as many people prefer eating poop to being given free money! I said it on the internet so its true!

This comment is off topic and reported as such.

Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.


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And the folks on their comment boards have done nothing t change that perception.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS.

Its been widely cited as a significant cause for the decline of the LGS.

And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.

Kings of War? Warmahordes? A battle box and a couple solos will get you to the minimum playable (15pts). Also, stuff like Baby Kade has to have been priced on a bet. $45 for Ash and Dust? $12 for 3 rats? That's approaching GW level redonkulous. I've mostly collected everything in Neverborn and Outcasts, but some of them were hard to swallow for what they were.

 cincydooley wrote:
Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.

The comment was presented as a quote, and even when you look at the meaning behind what Bossk_Hogg wrote, it's still never been said. He's implying that. And I would agree with you on the "lip service" aspect of protecting the LGS if this was the first time they mentioned it, and it hasn't been a well known business practice amongst Wyrd regulars.

 cincydooley wrote:
Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.


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And the folks on their comment boards have done nothing t change that perception.

Seconded. I'm a backer, and a fan boy, and even I haven't been blind to the commentary and subtext that has basically been "if you don't like it you're welcome to not back it". I'm not expecting them to grovel and throw themselves at the feet of the community, but you don't need to look very far to see comments touting how "this KS is being run differently", or "it's not all about swag and nick nacks". It's a strange dichotomy of apparently aiming for a quarter million or more in backing, but being happy to just present people a trickle of info and responding to many polite requests with "nope, sorry, not interested, doing it our way".

Like the tiers, EBO had like a dozen of them, but somehow this one only has 6 4? Was there a mutiny in the warehouse after the EBO event ended? They could have added any number of variations on the tiers to better attract interest and still avoided their "we don't do add ons unless you pay $500+" issue.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS.

Its been widely cited as a significant cause for the decline of the LGS.

And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.

Kings of War? Warmahordes? A battle box and a couple solos will get you to the minimum playable (15pts). Also, stuff like Baby Kade has to have been priced on a bet. $45 for Ash and Dust? $12 for 3 rats? That's approaching GW level redonkulous. I've mostly collected everything in Neverborn and Outcasts, but some of them were hard to swallow for what they were.

Competitive means the average point size for the game. Both Malifaux and Warmahordes play at 35 points in the average competitive scene and by extension the average games play at this point size. I own 3 Warmachine armies and 2 Hordes armies. None of my competitive builds were created for around 60 dollars. My Trollbloods list costs close to 150 dollars. For that price I can create 2 competitive 35ss Malifaux crews. As for Kings of War, I've never played that, so I would like it if you provided a list at the average point costs near the price I quoted. Seeing as my Undead Army I bought from them cost me 60 after a discount, I do not think it's really possible.

Actually 12 dollars for 3 models isn't that unheard of in wargaming. Unit Attachments for many warmachine and hordes armies are roughly that price.

Another advantage to a shorter run (again, more hindsight) would be that the info they have to give would've been condensed. More to share per day. While Mack has been a viking about giving insight into the design process and mechanics (at least as works in progress), it has felt like they've been struggling to fill the void with daily updates. It's not hard to miss that the "We're at XXX% funding!" comments alone were looking pretty anemic when the jump would be like 5-10% over the course of a weekend.

Forar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.


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And the folks on their comment boards have done nothing t change that perception.

Seconded. I'm a backer, and a fan boy, and even I haven't been blind to the commentary and subtext that has basically been "if you don't like it you're welcome to not back it". I'm not expecting them to grovel and throw themselves at the feet of the community, but you don't need to look very far to see comments touting how "this KS is being run differently", or "it's not all about swag and nick nacks". It's a strange dichotomy of apparently aiming for a quarter million or more in backing, but being happy to just present people a trickle of info and responding to many polite requests with "nope, sorry, not interested, doing it our way".

Like the tiers, EBO had like a dozen of them, but somehow this one only has 6 4? Was there a mutiny in the warehouse after the EBO event ended? They could have added any number of variations on the tiers to better attract interest and still avoided their "we don't do add ons unless you pay $500+" issue.

One of the most bizarre elements to come out of this campaign is the statement, I think it was by Nathan(?), that the reason why they would not be including options or more diverse load-outs was that their shipping and QC department simply would not be able to handle it. Which in turn informs statements like "They have also avoided the trap of selling and shipping things and thereby losing money." (Taken from a backer comment.)

That's a rather amazing statement right there: yes, very clever of them to avoid the trap of selling things, and thus being required to actually get them to customers!

Well I think quite a few KS projects do end up in the red, especially if they havn't really looked at what the shipping will cost them

all too easy to weigh your product, but forget the packing, warehouse staff time etc,

not to mention relying on backers to go in at a certain level you expect to be the most popular (where you've left yourself a margin), rather than a different one (where there's not)

played right even a loss making KS could be a success in the long term (publicity, product development done, moulds made etc). In the short term it could be tricky (but a company Wryds size should have the margin to cope anyway)


back on topic (see where I went there) over the last 7 days they've had 0 extra backers (16 new in, 16 old out), and taken an extra $1023

 Buzzsaw wrote:
One of the most bizarre elements to come out of this campaign is the statement, I think it was by Nathan(?), that the reason why they would not be including options or more diverse load-outs was that their shipping and QC department simply would not be able to handle it. Which in turn informs statements like "They have also avoided the trap of selling and shipping things and thereby losing money." (Taken from a backer comment.)

That's a rather amazing statement right there: yes, very clever of them to avoid the trap of selling things, and thus being required to actually get them to customers!

I saw that comment on the KS page, too. Clever indeed

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Back on topic (see where I went there) over the last 7 days they've had 0 extra backers (16 new in, 16 old out), and taken an extra $1023

Yeah... that's pretty bad...

They've also lost several of the $225 backers. They had 362 at one point, and are now down to 358. I actually just dropped out, myself. I realized that I was in it for the extras and the game itself had no real draw for me. Well, that and knowing that this KS was being run so... uncaringly. I like my money to feel appreciated when I pledge it. Here, I just didn't feel like I was appreciated as a backer.

In the end, it will still be a somewhat successful campaign and the regular Wyrd fans will be happy and an opportunity to expand their player base will largely have been missed.

Given all that, it is strange they even went for a Kickstarter at all!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well I think quite a few KS projects do end up in the red, especially if they havn't really looked at what the shipping will cost them

all too easy to weigh your product, but forget the packing, warehouse staff time etc,

not to mention relying on backers to go in at a certain level you expect to be the most popular (where you've left yourself a margin), rather than a different one (where there's not)

played right even a loss making KS could be a success in the long term (publicity, product development done, moulds made etc). In the short term it could be tricky (but a company Wryds size should have the margin to cope anyway)


back on topic (see where I went there) over the last 7 days they've had 0 extra backers (16 new in, 16 old out), and taken an extra $1023

While that's certainly possible, most of the time I see people talking about how "some company lost big on their mega kickstarter" it seems to be some variation on the rumor about Reaper. Which (as discussed in this thread) really comes from a misunderstanding of a particular quote, mangled by the passage (ReaperBryan addresses it on page 4).

To your point about the churn of backers, it goes to something that Cyporiean brought up in the KD thread. I think it's the case in any sizable number of people that you'll unavoidably have some churn: if for no other reason then unforeseen occurrences come up and people realize they don't have as much money free as they supposed.

There is always going to be a balance between gains and losses: in a healthy campaign the equilibrium is weighted on the gain side. But you also bring up something very important; "played right even a loss making KS could be a success in the long term (publicity, product development done, moulds made etc)" the area of publicity and impression on the consumer, that is an area where it seems difficult to judge this as anything but a boondoggle.

Think of the campaigns that have done more then just get products to market: I would say Dreamforge is at the top of the list. Not because Mark raised such a huge amount of money, but because he's had a consistent opportunity to interact with the community and has used the opportunity to really wow people not just with his designs, but attention to customers.

 Alpharius wrote:
In the end, it will still be a somewhat successful campaign and the regular Wyrd fans will be happy and an opportunity to expand their player base will largely have been missed.

Given all that, it is strange they even went for a Kickstarter at all!

That is my feeling as well. I was only vaguely aware of Malifaux and Wyrd, and when I heard they were launching a campaign, I got really excited! Now was my chance to really sink my teeth into the company! Then this project launches and the attitude of Wyrd themselves really put me off. I am very new to miniatures as a hobby, but I am a massive RPG enthusiast, so I was looking forward to getting both of my appetites whetted here. I was mistaken in that assumption. This may not be fair, it may not be correct, but the campaign has actually turned me off of Wyrd as a company. It's just the impression they left on me has not been good and, since I don't have any good or bad interactions with them to draw from, this didn't make me feel good about them. Like I said, not fair, but it's just how I feel.

Its bad when my wife (who wants the Wicked Doll more than life itself) tells me that maybe I should cancel my pledge if the company is going to act like that. She has more malifaux minis than I do, and was actually the one who got me into it in the first place....which was a first.

 recruittons wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
In the end, it will still be a somewhat successful campaign and the regular Wyrd fans will be happy and an opportunity to expand their player base will largely have been missed.

Given all that, it is strange they even went for a Kickstarter at all!

That is my feeling as well. I was only vaguely aware of Malifaux and Wyrd, and when I heard they were launching a campaign, I got really excited! Now was my chance to really sink my teeth into the company! Then this project launches and the attitude of Wyrd themselves really put me off. I am very new to miniatures as a hobby, but I am a massive RPG enthusiast, so I was looking forward to getting both of my appetites whetted here. I was mistaken in that assumption. This may not be fair, it may not be correct, but the campaign has actually turned me off of Wyrd as a company. It's just the impression they left on me has not been good and, since I don't have any good or bad interactions with them to draw from, this didn't make me feel good about them. Like I said, not fair, but it's just how I feel.

I think this may be the one quote that highlights the primary deficiency with this KS: a new customer with no previous interaction with Wyrd has been turned off to them by this campaign. Not excited. Not left neutral. Turned off. That's a huge loss in my book.

For many if us that have previous experience with Wyrd, we typically have at least one good experience to balance it out, be it through a Wyrd employee or as an interaction with Mack. For recruittons, he doesn't, and this is the impression made by this KS. Not good.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS. And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.

Not all customers are looking to buy a whole army at once. It might be nice to hook someone with a small purchase that demonstrates good value. I know I've only bought one set of Malifaux figures, just to try painting them, because they are so expensive. Guess how many Reaper models I've bought despite never playing Warlord, DnD, Pathfinder, or any TT wargame? I'll give you a hint: it's a lot higher than $60 worth.

To be fair, I think Malifaux is very reasonably priced.

It's all fun and games 'til... nope... just all fun and games!
Update #23 · Dec. 31, 2012 · comment
Salutations!

It's Mack here on New Year's Eve. Much to my embarrassment Santa failed to bring my super powers once again over the holidays. So instead of harnessing the power of mind bullets I'm going to chat a little bit about our plans for the Kickstarter as we enter the home stretch. We are extremely pleased with the support the Kickstarter has received, especially considering the holiday season. However, now it's time to get a little crazy, and really get things rolling as we round the bend towards the finish line.

But we're a game company... so that means we're going to play some games! Once everyone gets back into the office on Wednesday (January 2nd) the fun will start. We have a lot of ideas, and we all need to get together and brainstorm all the fun stuff we thought of (and you suggested) over the holiday break. So be prepared, we're going to give you guys a chance to win some cool stuff, both for everyone and for individual backers.

So keep your eye out for that update email... and be prepared to have a lot of fun here in the home stretch of the Through The Breach Kickstarter!

Mack Martin is a good soldier, but I'm starting to feel a bit bad for the guy.

A chance to win stuff? So now they're going to have a fuggin raffle?? Wtf.

Pardon the language, but that's quite a vapid update..

 Alfndrate wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS.

Its been widely cited as a significant cause for the decline of the LGS.

And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.

Kings of War? Warmahordes? A battle box and a couple solos will get you to the minimum playable (15pts). Also, stuff like Baby Kade has to have been priced on a bet. $45 for Ash and Dust? $12 for 3 rats? That's approaching GW level redonkulous. I've mostly collected everything in Neverborn and Outcasts, but some of them were hard to swallow for what they were.

Competitive means the average point size for the game. Both Malifaux and Warmahordes play at 35 points in the average competitive scene and by extension the average games play at this point size. I own 3 Warmachine armies and 2 Hordes armies. None of my competitive builds were created for around 60 dollars. My Trollbloods list costs close to 150 dollars. For that price I can create 2 competitive 35ss Malifaux crews. As for Kings of War, I've never played that, so I would like it if you provided a list at the average point costs near the price I quoted. Seeing as my Undead Army I bought from them cost me 60 after a discount, I do not think it's really possible.

Sorry, byt $60 is about 6 figures, and that's before they raised the price a bit with their plastics. You've got some VERY specific lists to fill out 30 soul stones for 60 bucks, with no variety. Dark Debts is $40 for... 18 points? Better spend that next $20 wisely. I'm sorry but some of the models are just stupid expensive for what they are (Hi Nekima!). A squirt of molten pewter on a 50mm base with a 20 soulstone stat card isn't a good value just because it fills up your warband quicker. A good number of the models themselves are just pricey for the sculpts and what they are.

Actually 12 dollars for 3 models isn't that unheard of in wargaming. Unit Attachments for many warmachine and hordes armies are roughly that price.

$12 for 3 rats is a nasty joke, particularly given how many you need. I always point people towards reaper's at $3.50 for 6. Seriously man, I get they give you little perks to cheerlead, but even still...

 cincydooley wrote:
...fuggin raffle??

...which will have the KS staff knockin' at their door - it's not the explicitly prohibited 'raffle ticket as a pledge reward' schtick, but I'm reasonably sure other campaigns have gotten in trouble for even incidental raffles before...

I thought raffles weren't allowed in Kickstarters (I know they're not in IndieGoGos)?

Might want to alert them to that if so, before they commit to something they're not allowed to do...

About that raffle..

"The Canon Campaign Raffle at GenCon: Everyone who pledges at any reward level and also attends GenCon may enter the raffle there to be a part of our Canon Campaign, run on-site by Mack Martin. The players in this campaign will help shape the future of Malifaux and their characters will be entered into canon in an upcoming book."

Isn't that also a big no-no then?