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 Cephalobeard wrote:
I agree this is much, much more powerful defensively, but GSC don't "feel" like a defensive army.

As others have noted, it obviously helps them turn 1 with some clever positioning and a bit of defense, and we'll see if there is still an "Ambush Table" (based only off of the Kellermorph wording) or not, but I feel we don't have the full picture just yet.

Im hopeful, I'm just not jumping out of my chair, which is likely the best result for balance's sake.

It's very strong offensively too. Your opponent can't counter deploy from your guns. Wherever he has his infantry, you can reveal yours and same for AT. If also is very strong for assault elements in transports for offense and defense. I know exactly where to put my unit with rock saws in a chimera and where to put my abberants with picks etc. It pushes back short ranged AT as well. Scouting or flying units are going to be put in odd situations.

Plus, as you said, I guarantee theres more. We know for a fact the Primus and Nexos are their to assist in ambushing.

An important thing to note is that "Perfect Ambush" only works for units, well, "In Ambush" rather than "Underground", which is a convenient level of trickery, I suppose.

However, that's also confusing, because you reveal all of the "In Ambush" units... before you could deep strike them.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


No they aren't, those units would still need to remain over 9" away. Not really seeing your point, maybe we are talking past one another though.

They would. But they also would need to remain over 9" away against a Tau army. The blips don't change anything. There is no advantage or disadvantage. By the time they cast the spell, they would know which GSC unit is where, the blips would've been flipped already, and get to 9" of the intended target. If they want to get within 9 of, say, the Leman Russ, that Leman Russ is already on the board in the psychic phase.No deception going on anymore. The "this blip was nothing"-trick wouldn't work, because you have to do it before the psychic phase even starts.

A Kraken Genestealer unit or Ynnari Spear or even a Land Strider Gallant on a good deployment unit could easily get into 9" of an enemy in their movement phase, but cannot against the Genestealer blips. And even if the blips are no longer there on the potential second movement through Hive Commander/Quicken/Etc.. the GSC player can reveal his units as to make the first movement of those units matter as little as possible. So there is value to the GSC against those. Maybe they moved within 9" of a blip, only to have it be a decoy.

I think your misunderstanding my earlier posts because we seem to be in agreement mate. I was pointing out the strengths, but I was also acknowledging the weaknesses. No rule ability should be a 100% answer to everything. I want to actually have an engaging game, that means certain builds should have a way around some of my tricks and force me to respond.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
An important thing to note is that "Perfect Ambush" only works for units, well, "In Ambush" rather than "Underground", which is a convenient level of trickery, I suppose.

However, that's also confusing, because you reveal all of the "In Ambush" units... before you could deep strike them.

I think you are misreading the rule.

The way it reads to me, cult ambush is the rule that allows you to be placed in ambush or underground. So the strat refers to units with the Cult Ambush rule and specifically makes a requirement that it be infantry of biker. So you can use it when placing a unit from underground since that is the Cult ambush rule. It even references units coming in from reinforcements.

So you would be able to use it on a unit coming in from underground.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
An important thing to note is that "Perfect Ambush" only works for units, well, "In Ambush" rather than "Underground", which is a convenient level of trickery, I suppose.

However, that's also confusing, because you reveal all of the "In Ambush" units... before you could deep strike them.

Perfect ambush says when you set up a unit that has the Cult Ambush rule.

Not whether it is in Ambush or Underground.

Very well may. I clearly haven't shown the best reading comprehension today, even for a Monday.

Edit: Yep. Wrong. Just gonna go ahead and let myself be less excited/confused before commenting further, lol

Kdash wrote:

Looks like someone on the rules team likes Twiliight Imperium

Hm.

"These markers are revealed one at a time – each time you do so, you select one unit from your army that you set up in ambush, then set up one model from that unit within 1″ of that ambush marker, followed by any other models in the unit."

So...I put them at the edge of the deployment zone and the enemy can´t come nearer than 9"... but I have to stay within 1" of the marker.

The marker seem relative big...so you can set up the models nearer to enemy unit OR further away, so stopping an assault.

How does this new system work with the Kelermorphs +3 bonus?

 dan2026 wrote:
How does this new system work with the Kelermorphs +3 bonus?

The Warhammer FB Page said it was rules so you could play with them right away, and will have "updated rules" in the codex.

 Carnikang wrote:

Perfect ambush says when you set up a unit that has the Cult Ambush rule.

Not whether it is in Ambush or Underground.

Well, glad that half of Cult Ambush is called Ambush.

Seems primed for a re-run of 2017 trying to tell people that reserves and reinforcements are actually two different things for a few months.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
How does this new system work with the Kelermorphs +3 bonus?

The Warhammer FB Page said it was rules so you could play with them right away, and will have "updated rules" in the codex.

Which means no table really... Don't know if I'm disappointed or if I'm hopefully that the stratagems will help with that little adjustment.

The Perfect Ambush seems appropriately costed for a unit that has the ability to shoot in the enemies shooting phase (since you can use it when it's revealed) and when it arrives from Underground. Maybe there will be another that is named after the old Roll of a 6 that allows full movement?

 Carnikang wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
How does this new system work with the Kelermorphs +3 bonus?

The Warhammer FB Page said it was rules so you could play with them right away, and will have "updated rules" in the codex.

Which means no table really... Don't know if I'm disappointed or if I'm hopefully that the stratagems will help with that little adjustment.

The Perfect Ambush seems appropriately costed for a unit that has the ability to shoot in the enemies shooting phase (since you can use it when it's revealed) and when it arrives from Underground. Maybe there will be another that is named after the old Roll of a 6 that allows full movement?

Makes me think we're going to be a more CP dependant army than even Knights are, but we'll actually have the means to support them via brigades/battalions, so that's something.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Very well may. I clearly haven't shown the best reading comprehension today, even for a Monday.

Edit: Yep. Wrong. Just gonna go ahead and let myself be less excited/confused before commenting further, lol

It's OK, happens to the best of us. Just be glad you were reading it as worse rather then better Helps keep the hype up.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
How does this new system work with the Kelermorphs +3 bonus?

The Warhammer FB Page said it was rules so you could play with them right away, and will have "updated rules" in the codex.

Which means no table really... Don't know if I'm disappointed or if I'm hopefully that the stratagems will help with that little adjustment.

The Perfect Ambush seems appropriately costed for a unit that has the ability to shoot in the enemies shooting phase (since you can use it when it's revealed) and when it arrives from Underground. Maybe there will be another that is named after the old Roll of a 6 that allows full movement?

Makes me think we're going to be a more CP dependant army than even Knights are, but we'll actually have the means to support them via brigades/battalions, so that's something.

Yeah, I mean they've kind of soft-confirmed that Cult Astra Miltarium vehicles will be sticking around, so we've got cheapo HQs, cheapo elites, cheapo troops and cheapo fast attacks... just need those four-wheelers to be able to be taken in their own units in the heavy support slot, that'd be really ace.

Or cult basilisks...pls gw.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
How does this new system work with the Kelermorphs +3 bonus?

The Warhammer FB Page said it was rules so you could play with them right away, and will have "updated rules" in the codex.

Which means no table really... Don't know if I'm disappointed or if I'm hopefully that the stratagems will help with that little adjustment.

The Perfect Ambush seems appropriately costed for a unit that has the ability to shoot in the enemies shooting phase (since you can use it when it's revealed) and when it arrives from Underground. Maybe there will be another that is named after the old Roll of a 6 that allows full movement?

Makes me think we're going to be a more CP dependant army than even Knights are, but we'll actually have the means to support them via brigades/battalions, so that's something.

With the overpriced index I was comfortably getting 18 CP's so I am honestly not bothered at all.

Just had a thought......

If the only restriction on deploying via a marker, is to have 1 model within 1" of it... How far across the table can a blob of genestealers realistically conga line?

Beyond that, not really that bothered by the new blip system. Such, it's a deployment mind game, but, any mobile, heavy firepower army, is going to be just fine against this as they'll be able to re-position in order to always target something straight away.

Next paragraph says wholely within the deployment zone, no?

Kdash wrote:
Just had a thought......

If the only restriction on deploying via a marker, is to have 1 model within 1" of it... How far across the table can a blob of genestealers realistically conga line?

Beyond that, not really that bothered by the new blip system. Such, it's a deployment mind game, but, any mobile, heavy firepower army, is going to be just fine against this as they'll be able to re-position in order to always target something straight away.

Units set up in this manner must also be set up wholly within your deployment zone.

I think they had that trick with the very first 8th edition FAQ, when Index Cultist blobs could deploy with just one model in the deployment zone for a week or so in early summer 2017.

I really like this half blip half ambush system.

As i usually run my GSC in 1500pt games with 1 Russ and 1 Rockgrinder. Think about it like this, put 3 or 4 blips on the deployment line, if you get first turn you can set the rockgrinder(s) up where theyre the best, same with positioning of tanks and neophytes.

This has a great psychological value to add, and thats before you consider whats been put in ambush. I'm still skeptical on what will happen with the table and whether or not its actually gone.

Interesting stuff none the less.

aaahhh, thanks, i read that 1st time round then promptly forgot about it! Shame

Well the kellermorph/gunslinger for 3 cp can pop up and dbl shoot his ave of 9 -1 rend 2 damage pistol HITS twice and have a guaranteed blob or 3 of neophytes there to take advantage of reroll 1s and to shield him via character and unquestioning loyalty.

I feel like I'm not sure how Cult Ambush actually helps GS Cults get into combat anymore. Considering a huge portion of the army is combat focused this seems odd.

 dan2026 wrote:
I feel like I'm not sure how Cult Ambush actually helps GS Cults get into combat anymore. Considering a huge portion of the army is combat focused this seems odd.

By using the "deploy underground" option we don't know much about at present? At worse, this will function like deepstrike for other armies, with 9" charges and a need for strategems to get more reliable charges.

 Haighus wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I feel like I'm not sure how Cult Ambush actually helps GS Cults get into combat anymore. Considering a huge portion of the army is combat focused this seems odd.

By using the "deploy underground" option we don't know much about at present? At worse, this will function like deepstrike for other armies, with 9" charges and a need for strategems to get more reliable charges.

By the video, there will also be "chapter tactics". And characters like the Primus will need a new schtick. Also Relics, etc.. . Pretty sure they'll have enough rules in there to make reliable deep-strike charges.

zamerion wrote:
Each character is 20 euros

jackal alphus 30
Atalan jackals 42

Sector mechanicus tectonic fragdrill 45

If the drilly thing is right that could mean cheap IG Termites, and you get a free terrain platform to go with it!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

zamerion wrote:
Each character is 20 euros

jackal alphus 30
Atalan jackals 42

Sector mechanicus tectonic fragdrill 45

If the drilly thing is right that could mean cheap IG Termites, and you get a free terrain platform to go with it!

I'm more than happy with the Mantic Tunnellers to act as cheap Termites but that drill does look mighty fine.

Hmm.

Hoping we retain the ability to ‘adopt’ units from IG, as we can in the index. I’ve got three Manticores I want to use!

 dan2026 wrote:
I feel like I'm not sure how Cult Ambush actually helps GS Cults get into combat anymore. Considering a huge portion of the army is combat focused this seems odd.

You have the option to deep strike in. For units that don't use it, you still have the blips, allowing you to flexibly customize your deployment.

Imagine deploying the slowest half of your army via DS, then spreading the blips across the board, with the stratagem to have a few dummies. Then, after your opponent has committed their forces, you deploy your fast-movers (goliaths, bikes) to one flank, and deny the other flank by having those blips be the dummies.

Your opponent has to contend with bikes and Goliaths full of combat troops zipping up one flank, nothing for him to shoot at on the other flank, and Aberrants and the like deep-striking in.

It doesn't even matter who's deploying first. Suppose you're using the new deployment system from CA. You can deploy first, force your opponent to deploy without knowing where you'll be, tailor your force arrangement to match what they've done, and get the first turn. Or you can deploy second, see how your enemy moves on turn 1, and then drop in your units to maximize your ability to get them into combat when your turn rolls around.

This is a huge benefit, both offensively and defensively- you essentially will always have the initiative.

alphaecho wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

zamerion wrote:
Each character is 20 euros

jackal alphus 30
Atalan jackals 42

Sector mechanicus tectonic fragdrill 45

If the drilly thing is right that could mean cheap IG Termites, and you get a free terrain platform to go with it!

I'm more than happy with the Mantic Tunnellers to act as cheap Termites but that drill does look mighty fine.

Spoiler:

Yeah! I got some of these mantic ones in the black friday sale as well. I specifically wanted to use them as terrain, or 'counts as' vehicles for the GSC.

To Kid_Kyoto's point, you could use the terrain to hang something else up there, like cargo containers, or a big beastie carcass. would probably make a good 'Knight repair structure' too.

If you think about it, there should be rules when using these on a battle field with titans and other super heavies. They could cause them to collapse the ground beneath big vehicles, to stop them.

Those Mantic tunnelers are nice, unfortunately my current project is kosher GW only.