Switch Theme:

Are there too many Imperial factions that can't fall to Chaos?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





As of the moment, Sisters of Battle, Custodes, and Grey Knights all are stated that they have no members who have fallen to Chaos, minus Miriael Sabathiel. It makes sense for the Grey Knights, but having that be the same for SOB and Custodes strikes me as ridiculous. Maybe they could have far, far fewer members fall, but giving them a free pass puts them too much into Mary Sue territory imo. For Custodes, maybe as more and more are sent to the frontlines and away from the immediate light of the Emperor, a handful could be tempted and fall. As for the SOB, given how zealous they are, if anything happened that seriously shook the faith of any of them, I could see a Lorgar situation happening. What do you all think?
   
Made in gb
Castellan of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Anyone can fall.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
As of the moment, Sisters of Battle, Custodes, and Grey Knights all are stated that they have no members who have fallen to Chaos, minus Miriael Sabathiel. It makes sense for the Grey Knights, but having that be the same for SOB and Custodes strikes me as ridiculous. Maybe they could have far, far fewer members fall, but giving them a free pass puts them too much into Mary Sue territory imo. For Custodes, maybe as more and more are sent to the frontlines and away from the immediate light of the Emperor, a handful could be tempted and fall. As for the SOB, given how zealous they are, if anything happened that seriously shook the faith of any of them, I could see a Lorgar situation happening. What do you all think?


Why is it ok for Grey Knights to be immune and not others. After all hundreds of the thousands of Astartes have fallen across the millenia.




I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





I'm not so sure about Custodes but the Adepta Sororitas are pretty numerous. If a Space Marine can fall to Chaos I don't really see what justification there is to say that SoB can't.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Stevenage, UK

I imagine a lot of this is simply a case of factions doing no wrong in their own Codexes, and these factions in particular not getting an awful lot of fluff elsewhere. If you look at your average Marine Codex, they always get the big spiel about how "their faith is their armour" and they "know no fear" etc etc, but we all know there are exceptions to those "facts".

I could also see an argument for Custodes and Grey Knights being few enough in number that if any of them DID fall, it wouldn't be the most difficult thing in the world for their comrades to take them out and hush it up before it became widely known. The Dark Angels managed the latter half, after all.
Sisters... hmm... there's probably just too many of them about for that to be practical, so I reckon we're well overdue some crises of faith among them. We know they're at least slightly fallible, otherwise Repentia wouldn't exist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 20:38:58


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

 Super Ready wrote:
The Dark Angels managed the latter half, after all.


To be fair to the First Legion, they had the benefit of the rest of the Imperium being in utter chaos to cover it up during and they're constantly working to try and keep it secret from other Imperial factions(but don't seem to care that the 4th Sphere Tau know).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 20:41:56


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

El Torro wrote:
I'm not so sure about Custodes but the Adepta Sororitas are pretty numerous. If a Space Marine can fall to Chaos I don't really see what justification there is to say that SoB can't.


You could argue that they have Faith to protect them - unlike the Marines (for the most part)

Or they already have their souls comitted to a power of the warp - the Emperor

Sort of the same thing.

Grey Knights were never immune before the Matt War Abomination Lore - in fact originally only a very few in the Chapter were psychic to protect them from possible possession.


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gr
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Daemonifuge, which apparently is canon, explicitedly featured Chaos-corrupted Sororitas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:
The Dark Angels managed the latter half, after all.


To be fair to the First Legion, they had the benefit of the rest of the Imperium being in utter chaos to cover it up during and they're constantly working to try and keep it secret from other Imperial factions(but don't seem to care that the 4th Sphere Tau know).


I've always found it a bit odd that the Dark Angels that abandoned ship 10,000 years ago are this DARK, ZEALOUSLY GUARDED SECRET, but that things in the Inner Circle are apparently far more casual in regards to the Dark Angels that have joined Chaos in the time since then and now.

Do post-HH renegade Dark Angels technically count as Fallen?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 21:21:56


 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





Dallas, TX

There is at least 1 sister of battle that was traitorous, I recall being in a inquisitor related novel. As for custodes: they may not have fallen to chaos, but they have fallen to aliens, there was a instance where the original custody fell to a space vampire, it mimic its shape to the custode, I recall that in a Salamanders novel, possibly HH.
   
Made in fr
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





For the Sororitas' infallibility, I think it's largely propaganda. It's probably rare that a sister falls to chaos since their zeal makes them paranoid about anyone straying even a little bit away from dogma, but it has to happen sometimes. When it does happen, the Ecclesiarchy certainly makes sure no one hears about it and tries to deal with it quietly.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The fact there are repentia means SoB are not infallible and do still have cases of disobedience and fleeing from battle. Similarly, the Death Korps of Krieg have this reputation for being almost like biological robots but in the Imperial Armour Siege of Vraks books, there is an instance of them breaking, retreating, and shooting their Commissars. A lot of the stuff written about factions is often propaganda, the idealized image they want to have. Even if largely true, there are still the exceptions to the rule. These exceptions are probably covered up and scrubbed from records if the blemish is too great.

   
Made in gb
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Stevenage, UK

 Mr Morden wrote:
Grey Knights were never immune before the Matt War Abomination Lore - in fact originally only a very few in the Chapter were psychic to protect them from possible possession.


I've got to call this out as incorrect - the Grey Knights have been all-psyker and completely incorruptible for as long as I've been playing, which would be 2nd ed. Specifically, they're covered in the 'Codex Imperialis' that came with the 2nd ed box and the Dark Millennium expansion.
Even that far back, their fluff uses words along the lines of "not a single member has ever turned traitor".

The biggest changes Matt Ward brought about was their use of power armour, and the sudden proliferation and variety of units. Prior to that, they were only available in squads of Terminators that you'd take as a special ally - kind of like you would Legion of the Damned.
I stand corrected, power armour came earlier than Ward.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/13 11:10:27


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Tiennos wrote:
For the Sororitas' infallibility, I think it's largely propaganda. It's probably rare that a sister falls to chaos since their zeal makes them paranoid about anyone straying even a little bit away from dogma, but it has to happen sometimes. When it does happen, the Ecclesiarchy certainly makes sure no one hears about it and tries to deal with it quietly.


this was confirmed in.. I wanna say the SOB omnibus where it basicly says that when a sister falls to chaos they cover it up

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Lincolnton, N.C.

Well on one hand the Grey Knights and Custodes ARE Mary Sue silver flavor and gold flavor.

On the other, it could be Imperial propaganda. And if you wanted you could always make a Lord or Sorcerer of Chaos out of those models for example.

As a matter of point my Warpsmith is a Sisters of Battle model

My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba
Order of Saint Pan Thera


DR:80S+++G+M+B++IPw40K(3)00-D++A+++/cWD233R---T(M)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Stevenage, UK

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
As a matter of point my Warpsmith is a Sisters of Battle model


Oh, come ON!! You can't just tease us like that and then not show it off!
I've gotta admit the Grey Knights have been a goldmine for psykery/mystical bits for all kinds of other factions' kitbashes over the years. I've got a Blood Angels Librarian that uses just a normal Strike squad torso and the curved hood that comes with it - and it really looks the part.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






No SoB falling to Chaos at all? Sounds like Imperial Propaganda to me...

Jokes aside, SoB are human, and fanatical. That is a great combination for falling to chaos, rather on purpose or by accident. I can imagine that with them being the poster children of the Ecclesiarchy, any incidents are kept heavily under wraps. The Imperium has committed genocide for less...

You say Fiery Crash! I say Dynamic Entry!

*Increases Game Point Limit by 100*: Tau get two Crisis Suits and a Firewarrior. Imperial Guard get two infantry companies, artillery support, and APCs. 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 Super Ready wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Grey Knights were never immune before the Matt War Abomination Lore - in fact originally only a very few in the Chapter were psychic to protect them from possible possession.


I've got to call this out as incorrect - the Grey Knights have been all-psyker and completely incorruptible for as long as I've been playing, which would be 2nd ed. Specifically, they're covered in the 'Codex Imperialis' that came with the 2nd ed box.
Even that far back, their fluff uses words along the lines of "not a single member has ever turned traitor".

The biggest changes Matt Ward brought about was their use of power armour, and the sudden proliferation and variety of units. Prior to that, they were only available in squads of Terminators that you'd take as a special ally - kind of like you would Legion of the Damned.


Power armoured GKs first appeared in the 3rd ed Daemonhunter codex. They preceded the Mat Ward book by a fair few years.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Power armoured Grey Knights were in Rogue Trader.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




El Torro wrote:
I'm not so sure about Custodes but the Adepta Sororitas are pretty numerous. If a Space Marine can fall to Chaos I don't really see what justification there is to say that SoB can't.


SoB are fanatically faithful. Space Marines are not. Half of the Space marines fell to chaos...that says to me they are slightly more susceptible to corruption that certain other factions. (though that was mostly the Primarch's fault). Even most top imperial guard regiments can boast a good record against corruption its not like the forces of the imperium fall to chaos that easy. I think the justification is pretty simple you see in most space marine chapters they lose their humanity so that is likely part of why they are most susceptible to chaos. There are exceptions of course like the Salamanders and Space Wolves...but i would imagine them to be more resistant to chaos than most.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/13 09:59:21


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
It makes sense for the Grey Knights, but having that be the same for SOB and Custodes strikes me as ridiculous
Grey Knights have been known to commit the occasional blood sacrifice to Khorne...
But in all seriousness their armour and training probably includes a significant self-destruct if corrupted given they are warded in all kinds of anti-daemonic protections that would probably immolate them from the inside if they were to become possessed.

Possessed sisters are numerous in lore. However 'chaos sisters' wouldn't be much of a faction - without their faith they are just elite traitor guard, and their faith is significant protection given that it can literally burn daemons through sufficiently enthusiatic chanting.

The custodes up until recently have been as vague as the Emperor himself and as equally confined to the imperial palace, so there is no lore one way or another.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Stevenage, UK

Ah ok, so I was incorrect on when power-armoured Grey Knights came in. Edited my original post to suit.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Power armoured Grey Knights were in Rogue Trader.

Say what? Really?! ...don't suppose they had models, by any chance? I know the Termie models date back to Rogue Trader, those sculpts were incredible.
Looked a little into it and a LOT changed for the Knights between 1st and 2nd ed.

"The Grey Knights are fully as effective as any other Marine Chapter. They are specially screened to exclude all but the strongest and most resilient psykers, a measure designed to prevent any Daemonic contamination. As a result, very few of the Grey Knights have any psychic power whatsoever. "
...
"Often entire companies are granted an audience with the Emperor, a privilege normally reserved for the Adeptus Custodes."

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in se
Member of the Malleus





I can certainly recall a couple of stories where individual sisters of battle have gotten corrupted by chaos. I havn’t read deamonifuge. They are not immune to its influence. Where great knights and custodies are concerned I’m thinking it’s a case of size. If I where to say “no one has ever been corrupted by chaos from the 647th Cadian regiment” that’s not very impressive. The sisters outnumber the custodes and the GK by something like 10000000000:1 and they have been around for something like 6k years (can’t be bothered to double check the goge vandire rebellion). Of course they’ve fallen to chaos on many occasions. I assume the GK and custodes that get tempted and fall would be murdered on the spot by their brothers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/13 12:51:28


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in za
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

I think it's more of an opportunity thing. Even in the GrimDark WH40K universe the chances of a SuperNun getting exposed to Chaos is small. Even a BattleNun spends most of the time shooting it with bolters or cooking it with fire.

When your daily devotions are to the Emperor, you're probably fairly well protected.

The GK are specifically trained to fight daemons. This'll include psychic resistance and conditioning. Throw in the elevated religious devotions they go through there are plenty of ways even non psychers can be mentally reinforced to withstand the effects of Chaos.

The Gaunt's book Armour of Contempt shows even mortals can resist the taint if they are strong enough.

Hand selected troops from hand selected armies with hand selection processes will mean that the GK are pretty damn resistant to Chaos.


KBK 
   
Made in ro
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

The Order of the Piercing Thorn was purged, at the request of their own Canoness....for reasons.

The Adepta Sororitas being immune to corruption is pure propaganda, the fact that there aren't many instances has more to do with the dearth of stories about them relative to Astartes.

As for the overall thread question, if there are any factions that are truely immune to corruption, then there are too many.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Super Ready wrote:
Say what? Really?! ...don't suppose they had models, by any chance?
The original GK list used the old mk6 marine models with bolters, flamers, shuriken catapults, etc.
Slaves to darkness 1988. GK terminators (and nemesis force weapons) came out mid 1989 after marine terminators earlier in the same year.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

As far as I'm concerned, the only "immune" faction are the Grey Knights. Custodes probably are/could be.

I think Space Marines aren't as corruptible as everyone makes out. Like, I was under the impression that things like the Abyssal Crusade and Badab War are cataclysmic events, definitely not the norm. I think we, as out of character viewers, think Marines fall way more often than they realistically do, simply because the cases where things like that do happen are interesting.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
DR:90S++G++MB+IPw40k07-D++A++/sWD366R++T(F)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, the only "immune" faction are the Grey Knights.
GK aren't immune, just well protected.

Examples include needing additional anointments to protect themselves against the bloodtide, and only purifiers being permitted to guard the black blade due to the strength required to resist corruption - Crowe being noted as the only GK to be able to carry it for any period of time.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Don't forget for as many warriors as the Imperium has in these elite forces; they've vast multitudes more of regular Guardsmen and insane multitudes more of regular humans who aren't part of the armed forces.


It makes sense that the best at resisting Chaos would end up in armed forces sent specifically do deal with chaos (or which would have a high chance of ending up dealing with Chaos). Heck even in the Inquisition books (Ravenor and Eisenhorn) corruption to Chaos can happen to the Inquisition.


So even if the Imperium has an elite army of warriors who are immune, there's still vast numbers who can fall to Chaos.

   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Tyrant of Badab






HATE Club, East London

 Super Ready wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Grey Knights were never immune before the Matt War Abomination Lore - in fact originally only a very few in the Chapter were psychic to protect them from possible possession.


I've got to call this out as incorrect - the Grey Knights have been all-psyker and completely incorruptible for as long as I've been playing, which would be 2nd ed. Specifically, they're covered in the 'Codex Imperialis' that came with the 2nd ed box and the Dark Millennium expansion.
Even that far back, their fluff uses words along the lines of "not a single member has ever turned traitor".

The biggest changes Matt Ward brought about was their use of power armour, and the sudden proliferation and variety of units. Prior to that, they were only available in squads of Terminators that you'd take as a special ally - kind of like you would Legion of the Damned.
I stand corrected, power armour came earlier than Ward.


I have Slaves to Darkness open next to me right now, though reading back up I see you found this quote anyway.

They are specially screened to exclude all but the strongest and most resilient psykers, a measure designed to prevetn any Daemonic contamination. As a result, very few of the Grey Knights have any psychic power whatsoever.
Page 247.

The Ordo Malleus army list at the back of the book has Tac Squads, Assault Squads and Dev Squads, showing marines in regular power armour. As such, they never had their own dedicated models during Rogue Trader. Even Grey Knight Terminators are not in Slaves to Darkness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/13 16:18:32


Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
My blog - over 20 pages of Badab War, Eldar and other assorted projects 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Stevenage, UK

Appreciate the knowledge bomb, thanks.

What's in Slaves to Darkness is so drastically different as to everything that's followed since, that it's fair to say that the "real" Grey Knights hadn't appeared yet.
Bear in mind 1st ed also has things like Marines wielding Eldar shuriken weapons, Leman Russ still kicking around and leading 40k Space Wolves, and of course Inquisitor Sherlock Obi-Wan Clouseau...

I don't really consider anything in Rogue Trader's lore to be "official" canon any more, unless it's been backed up since, or it doesn't conflict with current lore (like the very existence of actual Rogue Traders, for example).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/13 16:17:17


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: