cuda1179 wrote:
It's not an more niche than Cavalry. The only armies that have Cavalry are Imperial Guard, Daemons, and Space wolves.

changemod wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

changemod wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
It's not an more niche than Cavalry. The only armies that have Cavalry are Imperial Guard, Daemons, and Space wolves.

Yeah, but cavalry are just variant bikes. There's little difference, and honestly little reason for them to -not- be one category.

There are several differences between cavalry and bikes, namely that bikes are faster (turbo-boost) and provide +1T, over bikes. Plus, cavalry are better over terrain that bikes as a giant wolf climbs over cliffs and roots better than a 2-wheel motorcycle.

It is strange that you seem to think that is a disagreement rather than restating my point.

Incidentally, cavalry frequently do raise the model's toughness, just not automatically.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
We already know we're getting new Plague Marines...

I mean... did you even read the first bit of the post before replying?

 Galef wrote:
Honestly, I am pretty sure that now that everything has an M stat, there will not be any kind of unit type. Vehicles might have a keyword so that weapons that once had Haywire, Guass, etc can continue to have a specific effect on them.
But Beasts, Bikes, Cav, MCs, etc will just have bespoken rules on a unit-to-unit basis to show whatever differences GW wants to showcase

-

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So you took what I said out of context, meaning your reply had very little to do with what I was saying.

Ok. Good to know.

 Deadshot wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

changemod wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
It's not an more niche than Cavalry. The only armies that have Cavalry are Imperial Guard, Daemons, and Space wolves.

Yeah, but cavalry are just variant bikes. There's little difference, and honestly little reason for them to -not- be one category.

There are several differences between cavalry and bikes, namely that bikes are faster (turbo-boost) and provide +1T, over bikes. Plus, cavalry are better over terrain that bikes as a giant wolf climbs over cliffs and roots better than a 2-wheel motorcycle.

It is strange that you seem to think that is a disagreement rather than restating my point.

Incidentally, cavalry frequently do raise the model's toughness, just not automatically.

The disagreement is that bikes and cavalry share no similarities other than being faster than standard infantry. Calavry can have a higher T than infantry but 90% of armies can't get cavalry and the few that do, well, Rough Riders are always calvary, CSM Lords don't get extra T from rider their mounts, Bloodcrushers and Plagueflies aren't getting any bonuses, and that leaves Wolf characters taking a Thunderwolf. Whereas bikes are commonly available to Space Marines, CSM, Eldar, DE, Orks (,Tau Tetras???) and Necrons. Bikes get +1T and if a Thunderwolf mount model was also given the choice to ride a bike, this would give him +1T as well, as Thunderwolves don't get a bonus, they have their normal statline, same as all other natural cavalry models. Bikes and Cavalry have very different rules and benefits and restrictions to each other.

 insaniak wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Anyone think that the primaris marine sales will flop after an attempt to swing space marines to the primaris as their core model? if they sell these guys for such a high price then I could see the compitition with ebay resellers and what not for cheaper older kits shutting that down. Not saying that is going to happen, just curious.

Nope, I think they'll sell well to newcomers and to vets either starting a new army or who don't mind the scale creep, because taken on their own they look awesome.

They'll only 'fail' to those who are priced out of buying them (who would have been priced out anyway even if they weren't embiggened) and to those like me who dislike scale creep (and I would very strongly suspect that I'm in a minority there).

changemod wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

changemod wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
It's not an more niche than Cavalry. The only armies that have Cavalry are Imperial Guard, Daemons, and Space wolves.

Yeah, but cavalry are just variant bikes. There's little difference, and honestly little reason for them to -not- be one category.

There are several differences between cavalry and bikes, namely that bikes are faster (turbo-boost) and provide +1T, over bikes. Plus, cavalry are better over terrain that bikes as a giant wolf climbs over cliffs and roots better than a 2-wheel motorcycle.

It is strange that you seem to think that is a disagreement rather than restating my point.

Incidentally, cavalry frequently do raise the model's toughness, just not automatically.

The disagreement is that bikes and cavalry share no similarities other than being faster than standard infantry. Calavry can have a higher T than infantry but 90% of armies can't get cavalry and the few that do, well, Rough Riders are always calvary, CSM Lords don't get extra T from rider their mounts, Bloodcrushers and Plagueflies aren't getting any bonuses, and that leaves Wolf characters taking a Thunderwolf. Whereas bikes are commonly available to Space Marines, CSM, Eldar, DE, Orks (,Tau Tetras???) and Necrons. Bikes get +1T and if a Thunderwolf mount model was also given the choice to ride a bike, this would give him +1T as well, as Thunderwolves don't get a bonus, they have their normal statline, same as all other natural cavalry models. Bikes and Cavalry have very different rules and benefits and restrictions to each other.

I'm still waiting to see anything that doesn't fall under my initial "Yeah, but cavalry are just variant bikes. There's little difference, and honestly little reason for them to -not- be one category". It's all mounted models, just some are bikes and some are alive.

You seem to be using a lot of words to express that you think the distinction is major rather than minor, I guess. We're ultimately explaining the same distinction though.

Also note that even Games Workshop plays fast and loose with this, counting screamers and screamer mounted characters (disks of Tzeentch are canonically Screamers acting as mounts) as jetbikes for no reason other than that they felt turbo boost better simulated them than run did.

leopard wrote:
Would be happy with larger vehicles for the larger marines, If we finally get a consistent and fixed scale for models and not the slightly weird almost-sort-of situation we have now.

If they don't do them to actually look right in relation to the models (e.g. have a land raider a Terminator looks like it could get into and out of without a cutting torch) then just leave the models alone


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Side though, the 'power' basic costs idea, in effect treats the unit as a fire team, options mattering a lot less..

coupled with the lack of blast templates meaning you could go for movement trays.

Anyone else see these rules as also working decently for Epic scale stuff?

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
He's also on a 40mm base rather than a 32mm, and he has a CCW/Power Sword, so he's a fancy-something.

And he's by himself!

I'm going to name him Steve! And no one can stop me!

For his last birthday I got my friend the DKoK Commissar that's unsheathing his sword. He uses him as a Lord Commissar. I started calling him Steve. It sort of stuck.

 Deadshot wrote:
Bikes and Cavalry are completely different, and I've listed the differences. They in fact share no actual rules or things in common other than being mounted.

Screamers are jetbikes because their method of transport better resembles jetbikes than cavalry, as they fly across the surface like a stingray in water. They don't run, so not cavalry, they don't jump up and land far away, so not Jump, and they don't hover around like Jetpacks. They go far and fast across the ground but flying, like Jetbikes. They aren't mounts though, they are a platform for a warrior to stand on. They're close to a catacomb command barge than a horse or wolf.

changemod wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Bikes and Cavalry are completely different, and I've listed the differences. They in fact share no actual rules or things in common other than being mounted.

They have nothing in common except for their primary defining characteristic? Okay.

Screamers are jetbikes because their method of transport better resembles jetbikes than cavalry, as they fly across the surface like a stingray in water. They don't run, so not cavalry, they don't jump up and land far away, so not Jump, and they don't hover around like Jetpacks. They go far and fast across the ground but flying, like Jetbikes. They aren't mounts though, they are a platform for a warrior to stand on. They're close to a catacomb command barge than a horse or wolf.

This is clearly going nowhere honestly. You're just varying between stating the obvious and nitpicking, and I have no investment in this line of discussion. Feel free to have the last word if you want.

 Leth wrote:
Hell, if rough riders get new rules I am going to have to figureout how to convert up some guardsmen on Motorbikes.

 Bull0 wrote:
This seems like a stunningly pointless argument to have. Every unit's rules will be on their datasheet from now on.

(In reference to deadshot and changemod).

 loki old fart wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Anyone think that the primaris marine sales will flop after an attempt to swing space marines to the primaris as their core model? if they sell these guys for such a high price then I could see the compitition with ebay resellers and what not for cheaper older kits shutting that down. Not saying that is going to happen, just curious.

Nope, I think they'll sell well to newcomers and to vets either starting a new army or who don't mind the scale creep, because taken on their own they look awesome.

They'll only 'fail' to those who are priced out of buying them (who would have been priced out anyway even if they weren't embiggened) and to those like me who dislike scale creep (and I would very strongly suspect that I'm in a minority there).

Vehicles look too small now, last thing we need is bigger marines.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
E're w'e go' Ere we go'. Think well get another faction focus today? Methinks NEcrons

Let’s take a look at some close combat weapons, shall we?

We’ve seen already that shooting weapons in the new Warhammer 40,000 use a Strength, AP, Damage system, and melee kit is much the same. The main differences being that there is no range on them, and a lot of them will use the user’s Strength as their basis.

Let’s look at some examples – we’ll start with the classic power weapon lineup.




In the current edition of Warhammer 40,000, the axe is the go-to weapon for a lot of folks. Players gladly took the unwieldy rule in exchange for AP2 and a bonus to Strength. Now, the obvious choice is far from obvious, as they clearly all have their uses. That sword, for example, is looking pretty deadly against most things, with the AP-3 helping it against every type of foe. Even with no bonus to Strength, using the new wounding chart shows that a Strength 4 Space Marine is wounding everything up to Toughness 7 on 5s (which is good, because a lot of our models have swords).

Even the humble chainsword gets a boost. No longer just a standard combat weapon, the iconic combat weapon wielded by the Adeptus Astartes and many other forces, now gives its bearer more attacks in combat. Perfect for grinding through hordes of low armoured troops, the chainsword now functions on the battlefield how it always has in your head. This change also helps differentiate dedicated combat troops from those just wielding improvised or side-arm weapons.



We can see that all of the above still only do 1 Damage, meaning that while they can chip wounds off bigger stuff, they are primarily infantry killers.

What about some anti-armour stuff though? Check out the power fist:



At the cost of being more cumbersome to swing, it’s dishing out multiple damage with every hit, and at a Strength that will find it easy to wound anything in the game.

Another high damage option is Force weapons. Take a Grey Knight squad of any sort: every guy in there has a blade that, as well as having all the benefits of the equivalent Power weapon, also dishes out D3 damage on every wound! Those guys are going to be phenomenal up-close killers, as they should be.

D3 Damage is good, but if you really want to kill something, try the reaper chainsword. This deals a flat 6 Damage to whatever it wounds. That’s enough to carve a Chaos Lord in half, and a couple of hits will wreck most small and medium vehicles in a single Fight phase

Make no mistake, when facing a dedicated melee unit, stuff is going to die in combat really, really fast.