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Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot



UK, Midlands

tneva82 wrote:
necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example.


Really? IIRC 10 MWBD Tesla Immortals kill about 13 Guardsmen. Splitting that between 2 min size guard squads, and factoring in moral tests, means you're looking at closer to 20 dead Guardsmen.

I haven't done the maths to compare that to other options, but Tesla Immortals have always felt like premier chaff clearers when I've used them.

   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





For h2h unit to be worth it it needs reliable delivery method. One monolith is easy to take down so slap down one and it gets blown and then lychguard gunned down. Even 2 can get risky with all the knight killing firepower out there. But ok 2 monoliths. If you rely on one though...well opponent simply shoots down it and then guns down the lychguard that comes out. You need to be able to be inside to not be gunned.

On paper should also consider can you actually get into combat. It's irrelevant if you have 1 attack that automatically hits, automatically wounds, ignores all saves and has flat damage 60 if it's on platform that's immobile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example.


Really? IIRC 10 MWBD Tesla Immortals kill about 13 Guardsmen. Splitting that between 2 min size guard squads, and factoring in moral tests, means you're looking at closer to 20 dead Guardsmen.

I haven't done the maths to compare that to other options, but Tesla Immortals have always felt like premier chaff clearers when I've used them.



Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.

Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.

Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 12:01:44


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal




Busy messing around with lists trying to make something scary. is this a dumb list?

2 x Cryptek with Cloak

2 x 5 Tesla Immortals
1 x 10 warriors
1 x Ghost Ark

3 x Doom Scythe (sautekh)

3 x DDA

1 x Pylon.

= 1990 pts

Everything is Nihilakh except the flyers. The idea is to castle up on the pylon, get the DDAs that sweet 5++ (maybe even get the flyers in there turn 1.

I feel like this list ruins big stuff, but would just get overrun by nids/orks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 12:07:19


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





tneva82 wrote:
For h2h unit to be worth it it needs reliable delivery method. One monolith is easy to take down so slap down one and it gets blown and then lychguard gunned down. Even 2 can get risky with all the knight killing firepower out there. But ok 2 monoliths. If you rely on one though...well opponent simply shoots down it and then guns down the lychguard that comes out. You need to be able to be inside to not be gunned.

On paper should also consider can you actually get into combat. It's irrelevant if you have 1 attack that automatically hits, automatically wounds, ignores all saves and has flat damage 60 if it's on platform that's immobile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example.


Really? IIRC 10 MWBD Tesla Immortals kill about 13 Guardsmen. Splitting that between 2 min size guard squads, and factoring in moral tests, means you're looking at closer to 20 dead Guardsmen.

I haven't done the maths to compare that to other options, but Tesla Immortals have always felt like premier chaff clearers when I've used them.



Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.

Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.

Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?


A monolith isn't that hard to "handle" either. Oh there's choppy guys coming out of that thing? Lemme just walk over to this side of the board. Or surround it. Or generally do any of a number of simple tricks to neutralize the threat.

But are there better schaff clearers in other armies than Tesla immortals? Give them the MWBD, that's a given. If you fit in a lord as well it goes from 13 to 16. You're now clearing 30+ models between two Tesla Immortal units.. and you could throw inn tomb blades if you have them for a coupld of finishing blows.. are there usually better schaff clearers out there for other armies I mean?

Also don't forget the survivability.. Hugging cover means those lasguns coming back outside of RF range are barely making a dent.

Shiny 40k 8th tool with colors: dice-hammer.com 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot



UK, Midlands

tneva82 wrote:


Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.

Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.

Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?



In order to qualify as an efficient chaff clearer, you need to be better than other units at clearing chaff- not kill more than your points worth of chaff in one turn.

What's a more efficient chaff clearer than Tesla Immortals? I'm sure there are some out there, but I doubt there are many, hence Tesla Immortals are a premier chaff clearing unit.

   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




 vict0988 wrote:

Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts


Can you please explain your notation here? I can't see how the number 24 is associated with a wraith in any way, nor why you would multiply it by 0.

Also, when you are making comparisons best not to include things like MWBD or Crimson haze as that increases the cost of the unit. Almost every unit can be boosted by CP or auras, so best to ignore that. Otherwise you've got to add in spending 3CP to allow Wraiths to fight twice for example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 14:47:03


 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
tneva82 wrote:


Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.

Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.

Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?



In order to qualify as an efficient chaff clearer, you need to be better than other units at clearing chaff- not kill more than your points worth of chaff in one turn.

What's a more efficient chaff clearer than Tesla Immortals? I'm sure there are some out there, but I doubt there are many, hence Tesla Immortals are a premier chaff clearing unit.



Agreed.
That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)

Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.

Bedouin Dynasty: 9000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts
The Emperor's Finest 3k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





 vict0988 wrote:
barontuman wrote:
dapperbandit wrote:
Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?


Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.

Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH

Assuming
Toughness 8
3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit)
3+ vs Hand to Hand

Wounds per point (higher is better)
0.01587301587 Scytheguard
0.01709401709 Scarabs
0.01851851852 Wraiths
0.01234567901 Tesla
0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon
0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)

Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models
1575 Scytheguard
1462.5 Scarabs
1350 Wraiths
2025 Tesla
1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon
2475 Warrior (rapid fire)

Scytheguard can spend 1 CP to increase their damage output by 50% against Knights.

Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts
Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn)
Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts
Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts
Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts
Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts
Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts
DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts
DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts
Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts
Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts
Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts

So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.


You did Novokh, Crimson Haze Wraiths, but not Scarab?
My Novokh Haze Scarabs always seem to outperform my Wraiths.
It's not that hard to get 2 full units in cc in range of the Haze aura.

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 iGuy91 wrote:


Agreed.
That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)

Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.


Agreed. This is one of (many) reasons why Knights were so insane. Heavy weapons balance out high armor so that the damage math balances out, but the 3+ safe was too much when combined with the low point cost.

Plus the brokenly cheap battalions and such, but that's a different issue.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 iGuy91 wrote:

That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)

Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.


If so necrons are screwed vs IG as IG troopers will flat out outshoot immortals as math shows(search it up. It's in this thread).

Sure 10 immortals will win vs 10 troopers. But 10 ig troopers are "bit" cheaper than 10 immortals. Immortals won't win straight firefight vs the IG trooper squads short of good dice rolling.

Just because immortals might be best unit in our codex doesn't make them good in general. Just means necrons lack good GEQ killers. Vs immortals guard troopers won't even qualify as chaff as they are flat out killers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 17:33:18


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

tneva82 wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:

That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)

Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.


If so necrons are screwed vs IG as IG troopers will flat out outshoot immortals as math shows(search it up. It's in this thread).

Sure 10 immortals will win vs 10 troopers. But 10 ig troopers are "bit" cheaper than 10 immortals. Immortals won't win straight firefight vs the IG trooper squads short of good dice rolling.

Just because immortals might be best unit in our codex doesn't make them good in general. Just means necrons lack good GEQ killers. Vs immortals guard troopers won't even qualify as chaff as they are flat out killers.



By that logic everyone is screwed, and there is no point in playing the game, as all one has to do to win is spam 2 point grots or 4 point guard with flashlights, and flood the board. They are the most point efficient after all.
But nobody runs that many GEQ. I've never seen it. You won't see it in a tournament either since it takes too long to play with/move that many models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 22:28:30


Bedouin Dynasty: 9000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts
The Emperor's Finest 3k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





What is this IG outshooting Immortals math?

Assuming RF and orders to shoot twice and no cover for the immortals?

Shiny 40k 8th tool with colors: dice-hammer.com 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Are these the magic IG squads that can always be in rapid-fire range (even against Tesla Immortals which have no reason to close beyond 24") in spite of their main function being bubble-wrapping other units, and always in range of Company Commanders?

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in dk
Deranged Necron Destroyer






tneva82 wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:

That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)

Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.


If so necrons are screwed vs IG as IG troopers will flat out outshoot immortals as math shows(search it up. It's in this thread).

Sure 10 immortals will win vs 10 troopers. But 10 ig troopers are "bit" cheaper than 10 immortals. Immortals won't win straight firefight vs the IG trooper squads short of good dice rolling.

Just because immortals might be best unit in our codex doesn't make them good in general. Just means necrons lack good GEQ killers. Vs immortals guard troopers won't even qualify as chaff as they are flat out killers.

600 pts of Guardsmen kill 125 pts of Immortals without buffs or RF, 600 pts of Immortals kill 142 pts of Guardsmen. That's just the flat damage, Leadership is harder on Guardsmen and Immortals get Reanimation Protocols. Guardsmen have superior buffs and the possibility of RF, Immortals benefit to a greater degree from cover. Immortals are one of the strongest units in the game, still a ways off from being as versatile as Guardsmen.

barontuman wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts


Can you please explain your notation here? I can't see how the number 24 is associated with a wraith in any way, nor why you would multiply it by 0.

Also, when you are making comparisons best not to include things like MWBD or Crimson haze as that increases the cost of the unit. Almost every unit can be boosted by CP or auras, so best to ignore that. Otherwise you've got to add in spending 3CP to allow Wraiths to fight twice for example.

We can argue six ways to sunday about what math to apply, the math I did wasn't so much for doing accurate comparisons, because there are infinite possible scenarios and which to apply is subjective. The math I was doing in the post was about finding the pts value of a given unit needed to destroy a Knight with no Relics or Stratagems on it. Knights have 24 wounds, then we figure out how many saves our opponent needs to fail to take 24 damage, Wraiths have a damage of 2 so we need half the number of unsaved wounds to get that much damage (*0,5), then we figure out how many wounds we need to cause to get our opponent to take enough saves, we are wounding on 5s which is 2/6 (*3) our opponent saves on 5s so our wounds go through 4/6 (*1,5), hitting 8/9 times with Novokh (*1,125), our number of attacks lowers the number of models needed to kill the Knight, each Wraith makes 3 attacks which we multiply by 1,25 because of Crimson Haze, in subsequent rounds we would multiply it by 1,16 but because we are re-rolling 1s and 2s before Crimson Haze triggers we multiply by 1,25. The math might be off, I did it in a weird way and didn't input all the calculations, been a while since I went to school.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?

I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.

Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.

   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




Asymmetric wrote:
Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?

I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.

Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.



Assuming you go with Overlords, you can get 5 MWBD (1 extra for Phaeron's will) on those 6 troops, which is kinda cool. But, you only end up with 818 points left over to spend those 17 CP on. Assuming you manage to spend 6 on Phaeron's Will, an extra one for an extra relic, that gives you 12 to spend on 2 or 3 fast/elite/heavy units over the course of the game since Immortals are not generally CP hungry, and Methodical Destruction may be a bit overkill most of the time. Immotekh is probably a better tradeoff than another full battalion.
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





barontuman wrote:
Asymmetric wrote:
Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?

I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.

Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.



Assuming you go with Overlords, you can get 5 MWBD (1 extra for Phaeron's will) on those 6 troops, which is kinda cool. But, you only end up with 818 points left over to spend those 17 CP on. Assuming you manage to spend 6 on Phaeron's Will, an extra one for an extra relic, that gives you 12 to spend on 2 or 3 fast/elite/heavy units over the course of the game since Immortals are not generally CP hungry, and Methodical Destruction may be a bit overkill most of the time. Immotekh is probably a better tradeoff than another full battalion.


Could go with a couple of min squads. Would save you a few points extra at least. RP has the reversed benefit that the enemy might overkill small units.

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Made in gb
Loyal Necron Lychguard





818 points and 12 CPs will give you two full units of Destroyers, and 218 points spare, and they'll love the CPs

If you arent bothered about much else, that might work, add an escort cloaktek just in case your opponant cant drop all 6 in one turn

Or, just run 1 of these such units + cryptek and then 2 DDAs

Gives a total of 4 OLords, 60 TeslaMorts, 6 Destroyers + Cloaktek, 2 DDAs, and you have 113 points leftover, so you can definately upgrade one of the Overlords to Imotekh, and still have roughly 50 points of breathing space

YMMV, but that's how I'd do it if I felt utterly obliged

Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 10k
The Iron Serpents - 7.5k
Vulker Cavaliers - 3k  
   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




 IHateNids wrote:
818 points and 12 CPs will give you two full units of Destroyers, and 218 points spare, and they'll love the CPs

If you arent bothered about much else, that might work, add an escort cloaktek just in case your opponant cant drop all 6 in one turn

Or, just run 1 of these such units + cryptek and then 2 DDAs

Gives a total of 4 OLords, 60 TeslaMorts, 6 Destroyers + Cloaktek, 2 DDAs, and you have 113 points leftover, so you can definately upgrade one of the Overlords to Imotekh, and still have roughly 50 points of breathing space

YMMV, but that's how I'd do it if I felt utterly obliged


Sure, but the question is "is it a good list/idea" . I think the answer is no. This after having almost completed painting my 60th tesla immortal...
   
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In My Lab

How do you get 4 OLords? Rule of three and all.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get 4 OLords? Rule of three and all.


Yeah you'd need mix in a CCB (also good for extra MWBD range) or a named one.. could go Nihilakh and get the cheap Trazyn and reroll ones for your shooting Immortals

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Made in dk
Deranged Necron Destroyer






Asymmetric wrote:
Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?

I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.

Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.


I have more than 20 wins and less than 10 losses with my 58 Immortal Zahndrekh/Obyron/Imotekh list 90% of which were against mid-top tier lists. 3 of those losses were all in a row right after Obyron and Veil of Darkness got nerfed to remove My Will Be Done when used. It's extremely good, a non-Necron player borrowed the army and used it to similar effect. No tournament use though, so it's not worth the world, but if you just want a better chance in games with your buddies then it should do the job. You can go through my post history and find short battle reports for at least 10 of the games.
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





I'd like your opinion on the following:

I got a 2v2 tourney coming up in a few months, ITC with 2x1000 point armies. My buddy is bringing Tau and I wanted to bring a massive distraction list for his gunline. And also because I've been wanting to try this list for ages:

Mephrit battalion:

Cryptek, chronometron, Veil of Darkness
Overlord/w staff of light

2x20 warriors
10x tesla immortals

Deceiver C'tan



The idea is simple; Deceive the 2x20 warriors forward along with the Cryptek and Immortals through the Veil ( I assume I get at least a 2 on the Grand Illusion roll, even if it costs a re-roll. Otherwise the plan fails no matter what). This creates a powerful alpha strike and a massive roadblock for the enemy to chew through, leaving the Tau save to do their thing.


That of course brings me to the biggest hiccup the Deceiver always has; you HAVE to go first with him.

However, there might someone who can help us with going first, enter Toholk the Blind!

Toholk let's us re-roll Seize the Initiative.This can of course be game-changing in a list like this, backed up by large amount of Tau firepower.



So, here's the list with Toholk:

Maynarkh Battalion:


Toholk
Overlord /w Warscythe, Veil of Darkness

1x18 and 1x19 warriors
10x tesla immortals

Deceiver C'tan



So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.

What do you guys think?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/11 11:24:36


 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal




Doctoralex wrote:
I'd like your opinion on the following:

I got a 2v2 tourney coming up in a few months, ITC with 2x1000 point armies. My buddy is bringing Tau and I wanted to bring a massive distraction list for his gunline. And also because I've been wanting to try this list for ages:

Mephrit battalion:

Cryptek, chronometron, Veil of Darkness
Overlord/w staff of light

2x20 warriors
10x tesla immortals

Deceiver C'tan



The idea is simple; Deceive the 2x20 warriors forward along with the Cryptek and Immortals through the Veil ( I assume I get at least a 2 on the Grand Illusion roll, even if it costs a re-roll. Otherwise the plan fails no matter what). This creates a powerful alpha strike and a massive roadblock for the enemy to chew through, leaving the Tau save to do their thing.


That of course brings me to the biggest hiccup the Deceiver always has; you HAVE to go first with him.

However, there might someone who can help us with going first, enter Toholk the Blind!

Toholk let's us re-roll Seize the Initiative.This can of course be game-changing in a list like this, backed up by large amount of Tau firepower.



So, here's the list with Toholk:

Maynarkh Battalion:


Toholk
Overlord /w Warscythe, Veil of Darkness

1x18 and 1x19 warriors
10x tesla immortals

Deceiver C'tan



So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.

What do you guys think?



Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Doctoralex wrote:

So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.

What do you guys think?



Not as much. 30.5% chance of seize. And you still go second quite often. Though you could put warriors behind los block or something

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IanVanCheese wrote:
Doctoralex wrote:
So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.


Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.

You still get to pick a Dynasty trait, you just don't get their Stratagem, Relic and WL trait all of those for Mephrit are kind of meh anyway, so not a big loss.

Without Toholk you have a 6/36 chance of seizing, with him 11/36, 50% chance vs 57% of going first assuming your opponent wants first turn. Worth the pts? Maybe barely, but in ITC you can go inside a magic box(TM) if you go second, in non-ITC you can probably find a place to at least put your Warriors in cover, so you don't necessarily auto-lose from going second. I played with my 60 Warrior Deceiver list against BA/Knights going second and still managed to win the other day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/11 23:31:29


 
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
Doctoralex wrote:
So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.


Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.

You still get to pick a Dynasty trait, you just don't get their Stratagem, Relic and WL trait all of those for Mephrit are kind of meh anyway, so not a big loss.

Without Toholk you have a 6/36 chance of seizing, with him 11/36, 50% chance vs 57% of going first assuming your opponent wants first turn. Worth the pts? Maybe barely, but in ITC you can go inside a magic box(TM) if you go second, in non-ITC you can probably find a place to at least put your Warriors in cover, so you don't necessarily auto-lose from going second. I played with my 60 Warrior Deceiver list against BA/Knights going second and still managed to win the other day.


Nice.

Yeah you need a strategy for for going second beyond getting shot to pieces, and those 60-70 odd %-ages you go first you get to have some sweet fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/12 08:47:21


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 vict0988 wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
Doctoralex wrote:
So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.


Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.

You still get to pick a Dynasty trait, you just don't get their Stratagem, Relic and WL trait all of those for Mephrit are kind of meh anyway, so not a big loss.

Without Toholk you have a 6/36 chance of seizing, with him 11/36, 50% chance vs 57% of going first assuming your opponent wants first turn. Worth the pts? Maybe barely, but in ITC you can go inside a magic box(TM) if you go second, in non-ITC you can probably find a place to at least put your Warriors in cover, so you don't necessarily auto-lose from going second. I played with my 60 Warrior Deceiver list against BA/Knights going second and still managed to win the other day.


Hmmm dunno about that. Say I'm going second, I still want all my Warriors to be in at least 29", preferably 17" so they can rapid-fire. Or else, what's the point of bringing the Deceiver?
There's gotta be a lot of terrain if they are going to survive being that close to the enemy. Going first is still much preferable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/12 11:58:33


 
   
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Doctoralex wrote:
Say I'm going second, I still want all my Warriors to be in at least 29", preferably 17" so they can rapid-fire. Or else, what's the point of bringing the Deceiver?
There's gotta be a lot of terrain if they are going to survive being that close to the enemy. Going first is still much preferable.

The point of the Deceiver is a massive blow-out if you get T1, the question is whether it is worth it to bring Toholk for 30 pts for a measly 7% increase in chance of going first. That's also assuming your opponent isn't just going put out 30 Guardsmen for the slaughter and keep the rest of their army more or less outside of RF range of your Deceivered Warriors or just putting up 3 Knights as a front line and keeping the Guardsmen safe. It's not really an amazing list and I don't think whether or not you include Toholk will make a big difference. He has a role in a list with a good amount of Infantry and at least a DDA or preferably a Gauss Pylon. There's also the fact that he doesn't have a model, so you'll end up using a normal Cryptek model and calling it something it's not, I personally wouldn't include him in that particular list because of these reasons.

If you play 5 or fewer games with him you are fairly unlikely to see it happen. It's something that'll show up after you play 20-30 games with the list and you maybe go first 2-3 times because of his ability.
   
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I would like to argue that the destroyer lord should be Rated B or even B+

Been using him recently as a back field disrupted in Nephrek with the nano casket and war scythe. and has been my most consistent top preforming unit my army. For 129 points, feel he is a steal and worth every penny.

had games where he came down, got unlucky and died in over watch. came back and then proceeded to tie up multiple units the following turn and kill multiple support characters and still be on full wounds at the end of the game.

one game, he only managed to kill a few characters but got killed 3 turns in a row by a shield captain charging him. Though would argue, the threat he gave out stopped a shield captain killing other stuff for 3 turns.

Not arguing he is as good as the staple overlord/immotek these days, though i do consider him now in every list

   
 
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