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Maybe you need to take the same approach to you're painting as you have done with you're converting, plan what you want to achieve and the overall out come then take your time.

I have found when it came to painting it is a matter of focus (which you have plenty of) and mood, I know what sense does that make but believe me when I have painted (which aint that often ) and I was in the right frame of mind and focused I have been pleased with the results.

When I got to that point and thought I don't want to do any more but carried on I have been left with unsatisfactory result, so focus and mood do have a lot to do with it.

As for answering my question I can only say

I'm happy to race you to complete painting something My painting speed shouldn't threaten you, but might keep us both motivated

May I join this thought pool?
Great!
Aim at perfection in everything, though in most things it is unattainable. However, they who aim at it, and persevere, will come much nearer to it than those whose laziness and despondency make them give it up as unattainable.
-Lord Chesterfield

Hey mate , your one of the most dedicated convertors i have ever known , You are the engineer or enginseer of creativity , Methodical and persistent, great qualities , your at your best when you you are solving problems, you make things work and have the patience to see things through properly . I imagine if you were a painter you would be a photo-realistic painter , and i think you would make a fantastic sculptor, or deisgner As you said already you recognize your strengths and realize that most people cant do what you do the way you do it . The way Dst works is similar, But i guess like everything , what we gain in one area is sacrificed in another , you just need to accept what you do well and and enjoy it , The only reason you are not achieving what you wish form your painting is exactly what PDH said , and what you have said before , you haven't painted that much, knowledge is only half the battle , hand eye coordination colour theory ,mood, technique , brush control , so many different aspects come into play with painting , so much more than form and function, And i suspect that because you take your time in building the thing , a fear of painting will creep into it , The truth is your a brilliant convertor and great painter already. samariane is wonderful , so much detail and emotion same as the ogryn . The paint work on your Inquisitorial Hnechman is superb too. To be an even better painter , you must simply take peters advice .

One of the cool things about dakka , is that it brings together so many talented people to bounce off , your work has directly influenced the way i build things now, i try harder , for believability , in mechanical things, still a long way to go .. but at least i am aware now of one of my flaws, monkys work encourages creativity , petes work says , paint better damb you !! hits the spot , and migsula , cdm dante says to me throw away your brushes now mortal , for now you walk amongst gods !!

@ capitansolstice , not sure if i agree with Lord chesterfield there.. seems a bit abstract, i rail against perfection in my own work , as its the enemy of my creativity, I would go bonkers if i spent as much time as the cmon artists on there work , and although i would be proud to paint so perfectly i would also miss the spontaneity and freedom and the amount of less perfect ideas i could get out , For me creativity and Ideas no matter how well implemented are just as valid as as a 10/10 paint job or sculpt.

Just skimmed all the way through this to look at all the amazingly detailed conversions. Good skills!

I wholeheartedly agree with most things you guys wrote, but I'd like to point out something elementary:

This was not meant to be a lazy painters or notorious perfectionists lament/cry for help.

I didn't seek counsel. Like I said, I'm at peace with my perfectionism and I think (as far as one should say that about himself) I'm able to reflect on my impediments. Every gift can be a curse at times.

What I had in mind was answering LDD's question. I wanted to give an insight into my approach to converting/creativity and hoped for other people to contrast it with their own mindset.

list]Nevertheless I appreciate all of your (unasked-for ) advice and Peter hits the nail on the head. Just paint! [/list]

That's what it all comes down to for me. I never doubted I was a decent painter, but my ambitions and imagination can get me frustrated when I paint. After putting so much meticulous work into a project and picturing it perfectly painted, I sometimes shy away from "ruining" the model with a "merely good" paintjob. That's definitely the case with my ogryn, but I won't let it stop me from painting him soon.
I simply need to take my paintjobs less seriously. Nike it through and don't worry about doing a miniature justice.

My general opinion on perfectionism or the lack thereof is very simple:

If the years of experience in philosophy, martial arts, teaching and gathering wisdom by being a moron, have tought me one thing, it is that everything is about balance and timing. Too much or too little ambition are similarly bad, just have some and try your best. I think that's also what we can read from the Chesterfield quote: Try your best!
And I might add, that one should keep in mind that a beginner's best is naturally still pretty bad, which doesn't matter if he reached his current potential. Perfection is an illusion, but it perfectly serves as a long term goal, as long as you don't forget that you need to take one step at a time to make even the slightest progress towards it.
I've internalized this and in regard to modelling I can put it to practice, but I've yet to find my balance in painting.

@Neil: Back in my early arts classes in school I always struggled to understand why someone wouldn't paint things like they actually are. Later on in the advanced arts course I developed a less narrowminded point of view, but I still prefer the less abstract painting styles. If I were a painter I'd like to be Caspar David Friedrich or William Turner, my favorites.

@Weet: Thank you, I'm enjoying your blog as well.

Baiyuan just paint ……..

Art is what the artist sees not what you do ….

I think it's human nature to try and help out, asked for or not, especially when the potential seems obvious. I don't think anyone saw it as a lament/cry for help or seeking counsel (well, I didn't...)

While frustrating to get a heap of unasked for and unsuitable (for you) advice - for me, I'd rather risk it for that one idea that comes along that just "clicks" - a bit like the myriad of pieces you sift through looking for the "correct" one

The bonus here of course is that, even if ultimately unhelpful to you, one of your many readers might pick up something that "clicks" with them.

With that, I'll add on two last bits of unasked for painting advice and conveniently direct it at painters at large and not you specifically

1) Practise makes progress
2) You can always practise on simpler models rather than your modelling masterpieces.

It's why I'm slowly slogging through a Boyz mob to the best of my ability - I don't want to be hung up on my paint job ability (well, less so anyway!) when I get to my characters and other conversions.

So yeah - paint!

Great kitbashing on the mobility scooter of doom, gotta ask does it beep when he reverses? XD

Meant to ask a wee while ago, did you ever paint your fantastic pimped Wizard? Loved the conversion but cant find a painted pic anywhere :(

Arakasi wrote:I think it's human nature to try and help out, asked for or not, especially when the potential seems obvious. I don't think anyone saw it as a lament/cry for help or seeking counsel (well, I didn't...) While frustrating to get a heap of unasked for and unsuitable (for you) advice - for me, I'd rather risk it for that one idea that comes along that just "clicks" - a bit like the myriad of pieces you sift through looking for the "correct" one

You got me wrong there, mate. Unasked for, yes. Unsuitable, no. Frustrating, not at all. It was all good advice, that suits me quite well and it didn't offend or annoy me. I simply wanted to point out, that my intention was to start a discussion about how different people approach their conversions. Which seemed to have been overlooked by everybody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Perkustin wrote:Great kitbashing on the mobility scooter of doom, gotta ask does it beep when he reverses? XD

Meant to ask a wee while ago, did you ever paint your fantastic pimped Wizard? Loved the conversion but cant find a painted pic anywhere :(

Thanks mate, yes of course it does!
Samarianne, my pimped wizard, is still in the making. 70% finished I'd say and I really mean to see it through in the next two weeks.

Well, for me...I need to have a need first. Once I have the need, then I look to see what means will get me to that end for conversions.
In the simplest sense, I think like this:

1.Problem: I NEED to create more Meltavet squads.
2.Variable: I do not have any more meltaguns
3.Variable: I do not want to buy more meltaguns
4.Conclusion: I therefore NEED to fashion Meltaguns from scratch OR convert other bits into weapons that resemble meltaguns.

I am happy to wait two weeks. Knowing you Baiyuan that will be 4 or 5 incredible conversions in the meantime

Apologies for helping with the painting derailment then. Let's see if I can contribute something on topic...

Most of my conversions are primarily (currently) needs based - although where possible I try to work that towards what you called character based. I like playing 40k. I've started my Orks from scratch. The need to get a playable force has dictated the models. My need to be unique has dictated the character. As much as I love the idea of bit initiated or model initiated conversions, these are not currently in my near future - though admittedly I have some ideas on the back burner for those - the need to finish my current Orks is the present goal.

I like to think my strength is taking existing pieces and rearranging them in new and interesting ways. I'm not so good at pure creativity from the ground up. Hence I like to take inspiration from existing concepts and ideas, usually from film, but also from 40K Space Marines as my Orks' history leans that way. I've been on a path of more and more interesting and challenging conversions over time. Your work has given me further inspiration to continue that. My Big Mek was a character idea. My Deffkoptas are modelled after real life (Apache Gunship) and film (Avatar). My Trukks' primary concern were to be unique, but also to allow representation of all of the Trukk options from the Codex. My Meganobz (still work in progress) take inspiration from various film and comic sources - Warmachine and Predator - as well as 40K Space Marines (Dual Lightning Klaw and Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield). My Warboss (also still WIP) is a character idea, based on a Space Marine Commander in Terminator Armour - which I am building into a scenic base with Grot assistants, Grot Boss Pole bearer and Grot wound markers. All of the above not WIP are still PIP

My process of optimisation is not as far along as yours. Often I will gather up numerous possible components, trial fit, discard - I usually won't start making them fit until I am down to only one or two options. I figure if I make a decision I'm not happy with, I can take it off and try again. Orks can be very forgiving for this! They are also susceptible to the "glue more parts on" approach - which is another way I differentiate mine (by not...). Of course, this is all practise for my Dark Eldar for which I will need to be a lot more precise, both in modelling and painting, in order for me to be happy with them

I think what I have learnt most from reading your blog is that I can take my attention to detail to another level. One of the things I am looking forward to with my Dark Eldar (and my Orks once the core is finished) is not having the pressure to finish my conversions in order to field an army and play. Then I'm sure I will go truly nuts. Everything up until then is just practise!

Well I will shove my two cents in and say, before I decide on a paint scheme I spend a half hour or so staring at the model. Also I usually spread a load of dark wash over it so I can pick out the details and really think about them (paint over it in white later if I need a brighter undercoat). That's probably not helpful but its how I get over my indecisiveness over paint.

The important thing is that you are one of the most impressive converters I have seen - right up there with monkytroll - you guys must have telescopic vision and tweezers for fingers

Baiyuan I am sorry for derailing your thread and causing an uncontrollable wave of replies caused by my simple but innocent question, However the answer was complete honest and very enlightening and from this I have started to take a look at my own approach.

However I will say even with your great imagination and amazing ability to create the most astounding pieces I myself take great joy creating on the spur of the moment and have found some of my best work has been the outcome from this approach.

I am not saying my work is as good or even close to yours but this way is fun and rewarding for me.

awesome work!!!!!!!! baiyuan

weetyskemian44 wrote:Well I will shove my two cents in and say, before I decide on a paint scheme I spend a half hour or so staring at the model. Also I usually spread a load of dark wash over it so I can pick out the details and really think about them (paint over it in white later if I need a brighter undercoat). That's probably not helpful but its how I get over my indecisiveness over paint.
The important thing is that you are one of the most impressive converters I have seen - right up there with monkytroll - you guys must have telescopic vision and tweezers for fingers

Thank you for the compliment and the point you're making is a very good one indeed. Paint schemes are like the hardest part for me. Back when I was still playing 40k it took me years and I still couldn't settle with a scheme. That's why I eventually created a therapy army. Necrons without any conversions allowed, decide on the paint scheme first and stick with it and no buying miniatures before the last batch is painted. I didn't make it all the way through with not buying things in advance, but I managed to paint my lord, my custom made scarab swarms and 30 warriors, before world of warcraft hit me and blow me out of the hobby for a while.
Nowadays I still struggle with paint shemes, it often takes a week or two and several test minis, before I'm sure I made the "right" choice.

lone dirty dog wrote:Baiyuan I am sorry for derailing your thread and causing an uncontrollable wave of replies caused by my simple but innocent question, However the answer was complete honest and very enlightening and from this I have started to take a look at my own approach.
However I will say even with your great imagination and amazing ability to create the most astounding pieces I myself take great joy creating on the spur of the moment and have found some of my best work has been the outcome from this approach.
I am not saying my work is as good or even close to yours but this way is fun and rewarding for me.

No need to apologize, you didn't derail anything. The intention of my answer has merely been misinterpreted or overlooked, no big deal.
Fun and rewarding work is the most important part of it all. Everyone is (kinda) unique and has to find the approach that suits him and once he has done that it's perfect (for him). I love to find out how my own and other people's minds work. That's why my answer to your simple question was so wordy in the first place.

SO if anyone else would like to let us peep into his/her brain, you're more than welcome!

mnbks56 wrote:awesome work!!!!!!!! baiyuan

I like people whose first action after registering is making complimentory comments on my work, thank you! I'm looking forward to see further comments from you and maybe pics of your own work too.

Baiyuan you're reply was much appreciated and an amazing insight to your mind and workings towards your hobby , however if you don't what to paint that ogre send him this way lol…….that is a piece of art in its own right

Now updates if you please

When i convert i tend to stick stuff together in a random fashion and try and smooth over the mess with gs! On the rare occasion i know what im aiming for (like in PMW) i will search through my bits box, otherwise i use whats on top! Periodically i will search through the box to find AdMech related bits for example.

I dont paint nearly as much as i used to now, which means i tend to try and improve every time i sit down. Ive started trying to paint nmm now, i think its really rewarding to try out new techniques. It normally fails, but if i try it enough times i cn get the hang of it (eg i can do osl now to a level im pleased with).

I think my main philosophy is nothing is sacred, and im never going to reach the level i have set in my mind. So I never paint test models, and a project thats been off the boil for a few months is very likely to have its parts ripped off and used elsewhere! It can lead to some regrets, but thats life

Always interesting to hear of different people's methodology.

Bit inspiration is probably responsible for the majority of my conversions, certainly at the moment. A lot of time is spent peering into piles of bits, and randomly putting bits together to see if they trigger any ideas. Sometimes it's looking at a single piece and realising that if 'that' and 'that' were cut off it would make a good torso, sometimes it's putting two pieces together and thinking it looks a bit like something else. Quite often I may come up with parts that will then sit around for a while awaiting placements. That's particularly so with the cyborks, there's generally a few random heads/limbs/weapon systems floating about that have been built, but haven't found a good home yet. I've always done that to some extent though.
For me, it is generally the case of fitting two disparate bits together that inspires, rather than a single bit, but both are very definitely present.The fun of suddenly exploring a previously unthought of (personally, not necessarily globally ) combination of parts as they grab your little scalpel-wielding hands and run off into the sunset (metaphorically speaking obviously) is immense.

Character inspiration works for me too, evolving over time as I collect/discover the parts that I think are needed. I have several 'project boxes' that hold a couple of parts that I've deemed suitable, in some cases they contain only a couple of heads, or a torso and a weapon. These generally go slower, as I'm trying to fit parts to a concept, rather than building a character around parts that are there.
To be honest I think that these two methods work in conjunction with each other a lot, and I certainly feel that some of the bits inspiration is powered by subconcious character inspiration. Often when I'm sifting through parts (quite literally sometimes - I like having a large box filled with bits that I can swirl bits around in, looking for that certain juxtaposition of bits) I'll keep coming back to a piece or two that I can't think of anything for, but keep picking up anyway. Then a while (minutes, hours, days, aeons) later it'll all fall into place and I'm off building something.

This also covers references to other sources, in a manner mentioned by Arakasi. I enjoy putting references to games, films, comics etc in some of my work, and these can generate ideas for models themselves, or are sometimes spurred on by bits inspiration.(The Dredd inspired nob was inspired by the bit I used for his helmet - it didn't look like Dredd's helmet, but that's what I saw when I was looking at that bit of plastic)

It's rare for me to see a model and think 'I must use that somehow', it's generally a case of 'That's shiny, grab that' in which case it's destined to either have slight changes madeto satisfy that craving for uniqueness, or sit around waiting for so long it ends up getting hacked up and dispersed. Or it's 'That's shiny. But it would make a far better so-and-so.'


On the painting side of things, I can see where you're coming from Baiyuan. I don't think I'm a bad painter, but I am aware that I'm not going to get a result that matches what I can see in my mind's eye. Well, that, and time spent painting is time not spent chopping and gluing


No doubt in a few days I'll look at this and wonder why I didn't remember to mention 'x', or 'y', both of which are integral to the process.

@Monkey: There are some aspects in your description that apply to me as well, but some just didn't come to mind when I wrote about my approach. The most important is of course, that inspiration from bitz often originates from the combination of disparate parts. But I think this slightly different for me, it has to happen at some point in the process, but for me it normally really starts with one component. I see it and everything that could be around is up to my imagination until I find the right match for it somewhere along the process.

In other news:
I'm painting.
Didn't have that much time the last few days, but I'll keep it up and hope for a better tomorrow.
I really need to finish Samarianne, she's getting on my nerves and I want a nice and quick paintjob next.

Dont rush her you have taken the time to create her, now you need to provoke and seduce with the gentle seduction of your brush ………………. or you could just slap some paint on her either way it's your call

monkeytroll wrote:....Well, that, and time spent painting is time not spent chopping and gluing .....

QFT!

Spent an hour magnetizing the synchronized "self defense option" for the archivist. (Little more than a (facemelting) taser really. One has to be on guard, even as a scholar.)
Tomorrow morning I'll play a little scavenger scenario with a friend who's curious to give necromunda a try.
And now back to the painting table...

Quit yakkin and git to work!

Seconded!

Great morning!

The game went well enough (not surprising when you fight a new gang with one that has played six games before), I won and secured 3 of 4 loot markers. My buddy played pretty well and except one juve getting captured by me, the game ended well for him, but that was not the real fun part. That came in the post battle sequence as usual.

My leader got toughness +1 (fair enough), both my heavies have BS5 now and my "sniper" finally got the hot shot las pack I was waiting for (so the big battery pack finally makes sense).

But the best part was Velox, whom you don't know yet. He was just an ordinary ganger with a shotgun and mediocre advances (initiative +1, "jump back/leave cc at will" skill and +1 wound). Last game I bought a set of crapass...er carapace armor for him and this game I rolled the jackpot for him. Double 6 for his advance, so I went for tech skills like I always do for my delaques and what did I get? Right, he's a specialist now, bwahaha!

I think I'm gonna make him my personal "don't you dare trying to get into close combat with my shooty gang"-guy by giving him a flamer and placing him in the front row. Two wounds, 4+ save, jumps out of cc and fries you with his flamer? Sounds good!

Or do I further focus on ranged power and buy him a plasma gun?

Either way I'm going to replace the original standard delaque shotgunner with a proper model that reflects his wounds, armor and weaponry.

In other news...

Painting-wise I'm still redoing Samarianne's eyes over and over again. I shouldn't have tried to correct the first slightly crosseyed attempt! One eye is hidden behind the visor anyway and the retina and pupil looked good enough the first time. Well now it's too late, let's see whether I get it right again tonight.

omg, did Baiyuan just use the phrase "good enough"??

dsteingass wrote:omg, did Baiyuan just use the phrase "good enough"??

i think there is a warpopening somewhere near by him... we are all in deep now...

The post battle sequence is always the fun bit with my usual cry of "Whoot my Heavy has a WS increase again!".

Sounds like he is going to be one tough cookie, I think a flamer would be cool, that way you can make his carapace look like a protective suit...like what a fire fighter would wear.