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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ll post in greater depth tomorrow, when these lovely beers have worn off.

I may need to get more sleep, as I was trying to figure out what the Doc was doing with some lovely bears...

So in georgia greene won the preelections for the republicans?

Oh boi.... Q-anon for president.....




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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
It seems like a very dangerous way to view the world, and one that threatens to spill over into sectarian violence as soon as some cynical jerk starts tying “elite” to real groups like the Jews, the LGBT community, Catholics or some other minority.

partially the distrust to the media or government, is often self created issue. but that was allready stated some pages back.
stuff like that then reinforces these groups and weakens any position of authority or integrity to a slow demise, with all the "nice" consequences that has.

Something a bit close to home, and something I have just mentioned in another thread, it maybe a conspiracy, it may be a genuine problem in the game, it may be just a reflection of society currently...

Is there a far right problem within the player base of 40k?

Vice did an article about 'the culture wars' reaching 40k. I think there personally does happen to be a far right problem in 40k, I hope it's a minority, but it is a vocal and loud one none the less. Some of you may know one prominent YouTuber who recently has conducted an email campaign against GW, who also happens to be banned from discussion on most of reddit.

Article for you to read: https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/9358ke/warhammer-40k-alt-right-culture-wars

I'm aware this is flying close to banned discussion topics but I think it is important...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Something a bit close to home, and something I have just mentioned in another thread, it maybe a conspiracy, it may be a genuine problem in the game, it may be just a reflection of society currently...

Is there a far right problem within the player base of 40k?

Vice did an article about 'the culture wars' reaching 40k. I think there personally does happen to be a far right problem in 40k, I hope it's a minority, but it is a vocal and loud one none the less. Some of you may know one prominent YouTuber who recently has conducted an email campaign against GW, who also happens to be banned from discussion on most of reddit.

3 points.
- Culture wars are mostly really an english speaking phenomenom. Not saying that similar things not exist, but they do indeed have other conotations in france, germany, italy or switzerland or austria due to other specifics and generally involve other groups and parties.
- Half of that sphere atm is going bonkers because elections...
- "Everything is a problem because of a subsection of people in a group" is a tried and true (clickbait )media trope for any media which has low standards and want's to sell outrage. regardless if that was 100+ years ago print media or online media nowadays.

It's like with video gamers beeing made responsible for violence etc. It's a convenient somewhat isolated group compared to the mainstream, so an easy scapegoat and target. And video games have started entering the mainstream, so the next group will be TG. 40k with it's founding as satire and mirror for our societies in their most totalitarian form turned up to 11 makes a nice niche. However the satire theme slowly got lost in favour of grimdark only.
Has that later point maybee a draw from certain circles , potentially? but personally i doubt it that it would be a particular strong draw or if, ony for very specific isolated groups.

Article for you to read: https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/9358ke/warhammer-40k-alt-right-culture-wars

I'm aware this is flying close to banned discussion topics but I think it is important...

i can only give , an localised answer and subjective answer.
No, over here not really, you have the normal typically swiss spread of political alignement in the scene rangeing all over but that is normal because, well, swiss. Background also doesn't really matter, regardless, so long you are a nice partner for a match nobody cares.

Personally the main issue imo was, What GW claims it stands for and what GW actually stands for.
See, i was not a fan of the specific post that sparked that specific campaign, because at the time it was an issue, only just reaching the UK and GW is a UK based company, and secondarily it came over as standardised canned response for brownie points, especially in regards that 40k is for everyone. After a pricehike, so the statement really should've been: For everyone , except the poor which often happen to be margialized groups regardless.

Going to concur with Not, I really have little to no idea of the leanings of my fellow local gamers as it just doesnt come up in game, of course if I needed clicks I might say otherwise

Yeah. Does 40k have fans of all political leanings? Sure. Most hobbies will.

Does that equate to a problem element, or an image problem? Not really, no.

Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.

From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.

Just look at which game-related topics get banned on Dakka and why.


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 Overread wrote:
Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.

From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.

The phrase is “one bad Apple spoils the whole barrel.” For God’s sake, we just banned discussion of the Corona virus.

The hobby apparently has a lying-to-itself problem.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Just look at which game-related topics get banned on Dakka and why.


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 Overread wrote:
Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.

From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.

The phrase is “one bad Apple spoils the whole barrel.” For God’s sake, we just banned discussion of the Corona virus.

The hobby apparently has a lying-to-itself problem.

Firstly, you are american that includes a lot of differing values and societal structures and issues. NOT every society revolves arround you or even regards related values that you do. What you percive as a deep societal issue is not even considered. What issues you have are diffrent through history and decisions past of your country and others.
Secondly: Not every country decends into nuttjobery over who leads it and let that polarize it's society to the point not even PLASTIC TOYS, are safe from beeing an outlet for outrage media clickbaiting.
Thirdly: If you assume that means "lying to itself" even though as demonstrated other parts of the community are perfectly healthy then i don't know.
Fourth: With that argument you can justify pretty much every totalitarian action against any group slightly not conformist in every country. You realise that?
Fifth: the coronavirus thread, by the very nature of a RL thread AND beeing closly tied to political reactions to this crisis, that sooner or later in a multinational community site that is dakka some will have vastly differing ideas and that leads to arguments, is only natural. And whilest mods prehaps could've intervened more decisivly earlier and the fellow dakkanauts could've actually started considering some of the deeper points or read the facts for that matter, instead of just starting to attack eachother , that is pretty much common with any form of social media.

I'm late to the discussion, but on Flat Earthers, didn't that start as a joke? I remember going back a long time (maybe 15+ years?) I joined some flat earth forums, it seemed like it was mostly made up of intelligent people having fun rather than a serious philosophy.

I joined the forum when I was starting my engineering degree, and it was mostly just fun to come up with ways of constructing a set of physical rules that supported the argument that the earth was flat. A lot of the people arguing for a round earth weren't that knowledgeable or couldn't form good arguments, so it was kinda funny "wining" an argument in favour of a flat earth simply by having a better understanding of physics

Or maybe I was the only one joking and everyone else was taking it seriously and I just added fuel to the fire of genuine flat earth weirdos, haha.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Just look at which game-related topics get banned on Dakka and why.


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 Overread wrote:
Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.

From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.

The phrase is “one bad Apple spoils the whole barrel.” For God’s sake, we just banned discussion of the Corona virus.

The hobby apparently has a lying-to-itself problem.

I disagree.

We’ve seen people get, well, shall we call it outspoken on Dakka. Espousing some truly bizarre political views. That gets shut down, and prior to the blanket ban, quite often dogpiled by other posters, and often ridiculed for it.

Those elements exist, and they’re not going anywhere, but they’re far from a significant part of the community. And I’d wager hold pretty much zero influence. I find it hard to believe that political extremes recruit or ‘convert’ many in the hobby. Rather they get fellow political extremists to tale up the hobby.

Edit: not worth it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm late to the discussion, but on Flat Earthers, didn't that start as a joke? I remember going back a long time (maybe 15+ years?) I joined some flat earth forums, it seemed like it was mostly made up of intelligent people having fun rather than a serious philosophy.

I joined the forum when I was starting my engineering degree, and it was mostly just fun to come up with ways of constructing a set of physical rules that supported the argument that the earth was flat. A lot of the people arguing for a round earth weren't that knowledgeable or couldn't form good arguments, so it was kinda funny "wining" an argument in favour of a flat earth simply by having a better understanding of physics

Or maybe I was the only one joking and everyone else was taking it seriously and I just added fuel to the fire of genuine flat earth weirdos, haha.

Flat worlds are indeed a bit of puzzle, I recall when the MTG set Lorwyn came out even with 'cos magic' as a get out figuring a functional flat world was a stretch even before it not having a day/night or seasonal cycle either (which was cos fairies but even so)

I mean, it works for the Discworld, but most Flat Earth theories seem to forgo the four elephants and giant space turtle.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah I'm joining the camp of this mostly being bad reporting and not in any way really representative of 40K nor tabletop gaming. One or two bad apples being made out as a huge sub-culture problem within the hobby is just sloppy reporting for attention. You can likely find that same type of body in almost any hobby group if you go looking for it.

From photography to fishers I'm sure there are evil "alt right/left/middle/whatever" groups in all of them.

The reason it made its way into an article was the whole nonsense in response to GW's "You Will Not Be Missed" statement.

I'm not getting into it beyond saying that yes, there is a problem but it's not super widespread in meatspace. It's online.

 Dysartes wrote:
I mean, it works for the Discworld, but most Flat Earth theories seem to forgo the four elephants and giant space turtle.

And the thaumaturgical field which solves the whole time zone issue.

Like I said in the original post, I believe it to be a minority, but a loud one.... And well, it doesn't take much for the just as concerning far left to try and whip out their cancel card either... Imagine being labelled as a fascist just for liking 40k...

I do happen to find some of the glorifying and envy of the totalitarianism of the imperium extremely strange and concerning for example... I think may of us are aware of it's satire undertones akin to Mega-City 1 etc.

Anyways. Let’s pick a new conspiracy theory to laugh at, yeah?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZavBTa8er8

A deliberately ridiculous pick, for reasons of changing current discussion. Please do fully embrace the hint.

Is “Hans” a Poe......or actually concerning.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I do happen to find some of the glorifying and envy of the totalitarianism of the imperium extremely strange and concerning for example... I think may of us are aware of it's satire undertones akin to Mega-City 1 etc.

It's not really about recognizing or even understanding the IP so much as using it as a proxy (and a shield of deniability) for extremist politics.

An example I've seen is the statement "the Empire was right" in discussion of Star Wars, as a stand in for "the genocide of anyone different than me is ok". It serves to camouflage the actual politics and if anyone object there's an easy defense: just whine about "the left" and how objectors are just trying to cancel Star Wars etc etc.

So it's not really about any level of awareness, it's about an almost virus like hijacking of an IP to work towards extremists ends.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Like I said in the original post, I believe it to be a minority, but a loud one.... And well, it doesn't take much for the just as concerning far left to try and whip out their cancel card either... Imagine being labelled as a fascist just for liking 40k...

Had that allready happen because of the bag i used to Transport my armies. Fun Times, as for cancel culture tbh it's synonymus with storm in waterglass, Heck take a Look at Comics.
Those that did Bend the knee to them don't sell anymore, the others still do.

I do happen to find some of the glorifying and envy of the totalitarianism of the imperium extremely strange and concerning for example... I think may of us are aware of it's satire undertones akin to Mega-City 1 etc.

Totalitarianism and the strong benevolent leader with everyone having their designated place in the hierarchy have an understandable effect.
Especially on missfits and downtrodden marginalized groups. Or just people desilusioned by a political System.

Diffrent cultures of course react diffrently to such ideologies but all are susceptible to totalitarianism.

Right. You brought this on yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

Moving. Swiftly. On.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. You brought this on yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

Moving. Swiftly. On.

...

feth it. I like this song. Don't care what anyone says!

Come to think of it , why are all conspiracy theories atm focussed in groups supposedly having formed authoritharians Systems?.

Heck even flat earth with nasa as funding for secret Agents etc is in a Way alluding to that .

I Miss the good old fashioned carbonari...

 LordofHats wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. You brought this on yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

Moving. Swiftly. On.

...

feth it. I like this song. Don't care what anyone says!

Yep.
Threaten me with a good time some more!

The Penguin guy reminds me of those who disbelieved the existence of a creature that was part bird, part mammal and part marsupial. Ergo something that was so impossible that it could only have been the creation of someone out to tell lies.
Of course today we know that the duckbilled platypus is a real creature. Of course many people often have to see something to make it "real" to them. Simply being told isn't enough, though for most people they don't jump off the deep end going for conspiracies of fake penguins.

Plus if that guy was really serious and middleclass enough to afford a computer to get online, he could organise a holiday for himself to go and see real penguins in their real habitat.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. You brought this on yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

Moving. Swiftly. On.

...

feth it. I like this song. Don't care what anyone says!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usPoug7NcZo

Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??

Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??

Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.

Not really sure that actually qualifies as a conspiracy. Just a business calculation about how long their products last (determined through endurance testing) and where to set the costs for replacement parts vs new models. Each company can do that on an individual basis, and rate their competition on the same metrics (by just going out and buying some, and putting them through the same endurance tests).


More generally though, yes, obviously. At a very basic level conspiracy is just an agreement (of 2 or more people) to commit a crime in the future. That's a provable thing. Even if it isn't actually a crime, its still provable that people worked together, and once the arrangement is unmasked... tadah!

Voss wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??

Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.

Not really sure that actually qualifies as a conspiracy. Just a business calculation about how long their products last (determined through endurance testing) and where to set the costs for replacement parts vs new models. Each company can do that on an individual basis, and rate their competition on the same metrics (by just going out and buying some, and putting them through the same endurance tests).


More generally though, yes, obviously. At a very basic level conspiracy is just an agreement (of 2 or more people) to commit a crime in the future. That's a provable thing. Even if it isn't actually a crime, its still provable that people worked together, and once the arrangement is unmasked... tadah!

Yeah i dont think thats a conspiracy per se.
Its just a shrewd business practive where you manipulate your client base into accepting a lower quality product/Disposable product over something that would last much longer. We know apple got busted for installing an update that would essentialy mess with the running speed of older iphones so that people would buy a replacements.

It's not even necessarily nefarious. Why would you manufacture a mother board to have a life longer than say, 8 or so years? The technology in it will be obsolete in 3. Decrepit in 5. As much as we romanticize building things to last, the markets clearly do not value things that last. Just look at how old apartment complexes sell verses new ones, or recently renovated buildings. Not everything needs to last, is valued to last past a certain date, and depending on the market there just isn't value in making something to keep using years after initial production.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Question for the peanut gallery: does a conspiracy remain conspiracy (in terms of topics discussed in this thread) if it turns out to be "true"??

Take for example, planned obsolescence, and how many people think that there's a "conspiracy" between major corporations to build items that last X amount of time, die and then are made in such a way that it is simply easier/cheaper to replace than repair.

I think you need to separate a conspiracy from a conspiracy theory.

It is a fact that there was a conspiracy to bug the Watergate hotel by people working on behalf of the Nixon administration in order to get information on the DNC. People conspired to carry out that action. It is also a fact that when these people were discovered the Nixon administration conspired to cover it up.

A conspiracy theory is the theory that a conspiracy exists. If that theory turns out to be true then it stops being a theory and becomes a fact that the conspiracy exists.

The issue with a lot of conspiracy theories is that they go beyond the simple idea of a conspiracy and theorise on the motives beyond what the evidence actually supports, or even what the most "common sense" reason for the conspiracy would be.

If someone had a conspiracy theory that Nixon bugged the Watergate hotel in order to uncover that the Democrats were secret mole people, then their theory would be wrong, even though they got the part about Nixon bugging the hotel right. However conspiracy theorists will often see that one part of a conspiracy theory is true (Nixon bugged the Watergate hotel) and then extrapolate from that to the entire theory being true (ergo, the democrats are mole people).