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Politico-theological realities and the letter of Imperial Law are different things. The Malleus Remit means that even Grey Knights may not refuse the Ordo aid; whether Grey Knights would consider a known radical to stand for the Ordo, however, is another matter. Also, the Grey Knights have little ability to deploy themselves because they have little capacity to investigate daemonic plots throughout the Imperium. That is the perogative of Inquisitors, who then--upon command of the masters of Ordo Mallues--unleash the Grey Knights. The only situation in which the Grey Knights would refuse the command is when they were suspicious that the command itself would violate their mandate--and in turn be contrary to the madate of Ordo Malleus, which cannot but be puritanical from the Grey Knights' point of view.

The larger issue is that Adepta Soroitas exists and operates independently from Ordo Hereticus the majority of the time. Whereas Grey Knights are only deployed except in the prosecution of Ordo Malleus business, the Sisters' involvement with Ordo Hereticus is the exception rather than the rule.

You assume the Grey Knights can only deploy in the case of a daemonic threat.

They specialize in killing daemons. It's not the end-all-be-all of what they do. They're still Space Marines.

But you wouldn't want to deploy your most valuable asset at every danger that comes by though.

Mr Nobody wrote:But you wouldn't want to deploy your most valuable asset at every danger that comes by though.

That's why the Ordo Malleus doesn't deploy them.

They deploy themselves.

For example, of the Adeptus Mechanicus were to finally go over the edge and be declared heretics, who'd be the first to be called upon to take them down? Probably the Grey Knights, from their fortress orbiting Saturn.

Melissia have you seen the videos on youtube of Phil Kelly and Jes talking about DE fluff? Wanted to see what your opinion of that was. Would it have effected your decision positively or negatively?

@Mr Nobody: Yeah, I think you're right about that one. I don't remember if GK have a "why would GK fight X" section in their book like WH but my understanding is that the lives of GK are far too important to risk on anything but grave daemonic threats. (This obviously doesn't translate well into tabeltop play but a game between Ultramarines and Crimsons Fists makes no fluff sense, either.) Anyway, it seems like the Emperor founded the Ordo Malleus and GK separately but they really need each other to fulfill their mandates: sometimes a whole IG regiment isn't enough of a retinue (Vraks) against daemonic infestation, so you need to call the mary sues of all mary sues; and the GK do not have the investiagtive focus (or possibily capablity) of the Ordo. And they're supposed to be organizationally linked, with a Grand Master of the GK serving on the central conclave of Ordo Malleus (so Lexicanum says; I don't have the dex in front of me). Sisters, on the other hand, pursue a wide range of duties for the Ecclesiarchy. But like the rest of the Imperium, the demands of the Inquisition come first. And they have a special understanding with Ordo Hereticus, whereby they sometimes serve as the Chamber Militant of that ordo. By contrast, the GK are constantly and solely in service as the Chamber Militant of Ordo Malleus.

@SaintHazard: Given the nature of the Mechanicum and its origins, I'd say any major heresy would be investigated by Ordo Hereticus and ultimately dealt with by Ordo Xenos. In any conflict where the survival of the Imperium itself was on the line, I'd assume the GK would eventually step in.

That's my entire point. Investigating rogue and heretical institutions within the Imperium is not the job of the Grey Knights, or even the Ordo Malleus. That's the Hereticus's job.

So why did the Grey Knights purge the homeworld of the Relictors? The answer: they're more than just daemon hunters. They were even working under the auspices of an Inquisitor, but nothing I could find specifically stated said Inquisitor was of the Ordo Malleus.

Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn. Certainly not the Ultramarines way over in the Ultima Segmentum.

Does that make sense?

I guess my bottom line is that the Grey Knights, while they SERVE as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, are more than just that. They're still an independent chapter of Space Marines, and are used as more than just elite daemon-killers.

SaintHazard wrote:Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn.

We are talking about the most heavily fortified system in the galaxy. The Grey Knights could probably see the firefight from Titan.

AlexHolker wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn.

We are talking about the most heavily fortified system in the galaxy. The Grey Knights could probably see the firefight from Titan.

But you can't tell me they wouldn't be involved, as close as Saturn is to Mars (relatively speaking). Yes, Terra's closer, but the Ad Mech isn't exactly helpless.

SaintHazard wrote:So why did the Grey Knights purge the homeworld of the Relictors?

I think that is clear, given the damonic origins of their fall to radicalism.

Furthermore, if something nasty went down on Mars, who'd be the first to intervene? Probably the Grey Knights on Saturn. Certainly not the Ultramarines way over in the Ultima Segmentum.

Barring the final death of the Emperor and the extinguishing of the Astronomican, you're talking about the gravest emergency the Imperium could possibly face. Of course the GK would get involved. Furthermore, your argument is based on a combination of emergency and proximity--it has nothing to with the nature of the GK's mandate. "If one of the worst imaginable castrophes happened and it didn't involve daemons but the GK were right there, would they act?" Yeah, along with the rest of Ordo Malleus and every other loyal Imperial citizen.

People pick up and play with Chaos artifacts all day long, and the Ordo Malleus isn't the one who spanks them for it. The Hereticus does that.

The Relictors' fall had nothing to do with a daemon.

It had to do with their fascination with tainted artifacts.

SaintHazard wrote:The Relictors' fall had nothing to do with a daemon.

It had to do with their fascination with tainted artifacts.

That's what Fulgrim said, too, about his Greater Daemon-inhabited sword. Also, Malleus's jurisdiction sometimes trumps it's little brothers' in Hereticus. See Vraks. From a fluff-writing perspective, I'm with you: the Sisters should have handled that, as per their original fluff and even their re-invented fluff from WH. But that ain't what happened.

And that would mean that Sisters were capable fighters, which--as M pointed out--GW and its subsidiaries are loathe to encourage.

It ain't what happened because the Grey Knights do more than just kill daemons.

Which is the crux of my entire argument.

We may not agree on the details, but can we agree that that much is true?

I'm not really sold--but I never read the Counter trilogy (although I have the omnibus) so I will have to defer to your greater knowledge there. IA and their book make them out to be pretty exclusively devoted to eliminating the daemonic. But if WH is a model, the book just could be overstating the relationship to push the Inquisition--which was a big selling point in the early 2000s thanks to Eisenhorn/Ravenor.

I hear a lot of hate for the Grey Knights books in this thread, but honestly I thoroughly enjoyed them. Diff'rent strokes, et cetera.

In any case, we could just as easily argue that Black Library books are not hard canon (as they tend to contradict the codices often enough), which would make the Grey Knights as we know them 1) basically nothing more than daemon-killers and 2) in sore need of a codex update not just for the rules, but for the fluff as well.

Manchu wrote:And that would mean that Sisters were capable fighters, which--as M pointed out--GW and its subsidiaries are loathe to encourage.

Maybe M will get her wish. I was on the BL site the other night and noticed that one of the novels set for release in the future (next year, I think...) is about a Sororitas expedition returning to the ruins of Outpost 101. That's the infamous first contact site between the Sororitas and the Necrons.

Of course, it's also possible that the opposite will happen and the Sisters will be forced to barely escape the planet after another disasterous defeat by the Necrons.

Manchu wrote:Politico-theological realities and the letter of Imperial Law are different things. The Malleus Remit means that even Grey Knights may not refuse the Ordo aid; whether Grey Knights would consider a known radical to stand for the Ordo, however, is another matter. Also, the Grey Knights have little ability to deploy themselves because they have little capacity to investigate daemonic plots throughout the Imperium. That is the perogative of Inquisitors, who then--upon command of the masters of Ordo Mallues--unleash the Grey Knights. The only situation in which the Grey Knights would refuse the command is when they were suspicious that the command itself would violate their mandate--and in turn be contrary to the madate of Ordo Malleus, which cannot but be puritanical from the Grey Knights' point of view.

The larger issue is that Adepta Soroitas exists and operates independently from Ordo Hereticus the majority of the time. Whereas Grey Knights are only deployed except in the prosecution of Ordo Malleus business, the Sisters' involvement with Ordo Hereticus is the exception rather than the rule.

This sounds right. Basically The GKs are the attack dogs of the Ordo malleus.


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Anyways, I hope the new Sisters of Battle Codex includes the Sisters of Silence in some way. They're quite interesting and could serve as a psyker killer unit.

@SaintHazard: But if we only use codices for canon, I shudder to think of what that means for Sisters.

Same goes for BL, actually, as Eumerin points out.

@KC: Partners in crime +++ ENFORCING THE EMPEROR'S WILL +++ more like.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways, I hope the new Sisters of Battle Codex includes the Sisters of Silence in some way. They're quite interesting and could serve as a psyker killer unit.

Yeah, I love them. Why they don't seem to be around in M41 is quite the mystery . . .

Radical Inquisitors themselves are not actually criminals until they are declared such. It depends on how radical, as well, and what exactly their exact beliefs are. Dark Heresy and the Radical's Handbook supplement discuss this.

Each Inquisitor is a true individual, no two really being alike.

I've never heard of anyone being suspect for their puritanical beliefs. Radicals are either criminals or potential criminals.

That's because you ahven't seen two puritan factions disagreeing with eachother

They do, by the way.

Manchu wrote:I've never heard of anyone being suspect for their puritanical beliefs. Radicals are either criminals or potential criminals.

What about Karamazov? While he hasn't actually been charged with anything, he is currently being looked at quite carefully by the groups that he's managed to upset over the years.

Given that this is a setting that allows flamethrower-wielding Redemptionists to run around, I think it's safe to say that you're not going to see many heresy charges thrown at a Puritan. On the other hand, a Puritan is probably more likely to step on toes, which means that there are probably more people who are willing to spend lots of time and money scrutinizing the Puritan's record compiling a list of all the minor slip-ups that the Puritan has committed.

Radicals, on the other hand, are frequently involved in things that merit a bolter shell to the head if discovered by those in authority. Classic examples are the two that turn up in the Sandy Mitchell novels I've read. One of them isn't even revealed to be an inquisitor until after he's already dead (and was killed while attempting to delay obvious enforcers of the Emperor's will).

Not all radicals are necessarily like that, though, and the Space Wolf codex provides one example of the Wolves covering for an inquisitor until he can successfully flee from his less radical brethren (the inquisitor in question had managed to get followers of two different Chaos Gods to turn on each other during an attempt by the Dark Gods to take control of a planet, which apparently got him into trouble with some of his fellow inquisitors).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Anyways, I hope the new Sisters of Battle Codex includes the Sisters of Silence in some way. They're quite interesting and could serve as a psyker killer unit.

Aren't they under the auspices of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica? They have seemingly absolutely nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle aside from the fact that they're both units composed of women.

Though I would much rather see a Sisters of Silence codex than a SoB codex; the Sisters of Silence are pretty damn cool, and have some distinctive stuff about them.

Araenion wrote:They are also the least Mary Sue'ish out of all races, in my view. Every other faction(except, incidentally, Orks and Imperial Guard) has some sort of exaggerated awesomeness to them.

Please tell me you're joking.

Please, please, please tell me you're joking.

Those two factions are only beaten by Space Marines for sheer amount of ridiculous over-the-top fluff.

SaintHazard wrote:It ain't what happened because the Grey Knights do more than just kill daemons.

Which is the crux of my entire argument.

We may not agree on the details, but can we agree that that much is true?

I'll have to take Manchu's side on this one. I also haven't read the Omnibus, because...well, obvious reasons, but the DH 'dex and their general fluff makes them out to pretty exclusively be the daemon fighters of the Ordo Malleus.

If there's stuff in the Omnibus that does in fact state that they get deployed out to fight rebellions and orks and tyrannids and Tau all the time, that may change things.

Eumerin wrote:What about Karamazov? While he hasn't actually been charged with anything, he is currently being looked at quite carefully by the groups that he's managed to upset over the years.

Karamazov has political enemies in the Thorian crowd and among the Ecclesiarchy. He's not suspected of any kind of heresy.

@Melissia: There are ideological difference among Puritans. They do not suspect each other of trafficing with daemons, however, unless they suspect them of being radicals. That is why I said that radicals are susepct of collusion with the Ruinous Powers by definition.

Necroman wrote:Those two factions are only beaten by Space Marines for sheer amount of ridiculous over-the-top fluff.

No, actually, those two factions are so OTT, they might just be realistic. Quiet, scary, flesh-flaying machines of doom(yes, Necrons)...I was scared 15 years ago when Sarah Connor ran for her life from maraudering machines from the future. Or genetically-engineered overgrown space-locusts that want to eat all life! I'd feel threatened, if I were a cabbage. Same thing with Chaos. They want to eat our souls. My oh my, I better start praying.

I'm deliberately extravaganting here, just so to get a point across. I have nothing against any of these factions, but their threat to humanity is so blown out of proportions that I can't really take them seriously, ironic as that may seem.

Now Orks are the misunderstood teen gangstas of the universe, not really evil, just at odds(bloody ones) with the rest of the galaxy. And Guardsmen are your rank-and-file troops, with no special heritage or physical enhancement, just out there fighting for their country. Or galactic empire. Whatever. I can relate to both without trying too hard.

Now, I haven't read any books or such. And I don't think I should feel obligated to, just to make a valid argument. I've read every codex apart from DA and BT ones, though, so I think that gives me enough insight to know how I feel about particular factions.

Manchu wrote:

Eumerin wrote:What about Karamazov? While he hasn't actually been charged with anything, he is currently being looked at quite carefully by the groups that he's managed to upset over the years.

Karamazov has political enemies in the Thorian crowd and among the Ecclesiarchy. He's not suspected of any kind of heresy.

@Melissia: There are ideological difference among Puritans. They do not suspect each other of trafficing with daemons, however, unless they suspect them of being radicals. That is why I said that radicals are susepct of collusion with the Ruinous Powers by definition.

I thought one could be seen as a radical for doing anything another inqustioner saw as improper, even if it had nothing do with Chaos? From using Xenotech, to wearing your Aqullia belt-buckle the wrong way. Depending on what the exact disposition of the person calling you radical is.

All factions are OTT. GK are supposed to be the most elite warriors ever . . . but what about Custodes? The same things are often said about Deathwatch Marines. Every non-Imperial dex says that its faction will destroy the Imperium (except for Tau, of course).

I think we need the number 3 now before this whole page argu-err heated debate continues