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Cantus wrote:Final 3? I'm giddy with anticipation!

I'm gonna guess it's Eldar, IG, and Orks

Eldar because she doesn't play them so I would think she favors ORks and IG over them

IG because they are pretty good but no where near as awesome as

Orks because they are awesome, tons of conversion opportunities and you can make soooo many different lists.

Melissia wrote:The HQ choice is good... but really limiting. She's statted out for ranged combat, but she can only really be equipped for close combat.

It might just be me, but I think it would be great if a Canoness could take a Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer (or even a Psycannon or Incinerator).

The Inquisitor Lord is interesting from a game perspective, but from a fluff perspective I find it entirely droll as I don't see combat as an Inquisitor's job. Same with the Elite Inquisitor. Most of the time people just take those because they want the hood, and for no other reason.

I do like that the Inquisitors are well suited to representing other characters, like a Judge and their retinue of Arbites in riot gear, or a "pet" pariah and their handlers.

The fiction that focuses on the Sisters' Pyrrhic victories wouldn't bother me, if there were more pieces that didn't talk in general terms. Something like the story of Saint Alicia and her retinue, rather than just a general overview of the Age of Apostasy.

Seaward wrote:My problem with THEM, though, is the whole reason for their existence; the decree that took away the Ecclesiarchy's army stated that no men under arms would be allowed to them, so they use women instead. That the rest of the Imperium's reaction to the Ecclesiarchy avoiding the spirit of the law was one of, "Oh, you rascals, you got us!" is just one of those eye-rollingly bad pieces of fluff for me.

Remember that it was Sebastian Thor, a skilled orator who played a significant role in Vandire's fall, that was arguing for the organisation's continued existence. I'm more inclined to believe that it's as if someone had successfully convinced the Allies that the Treaty of Versailles went too far, and so they chose to enforce the letter rather than the spirit of the rule in order to rectify the error without admitting fault.

I wish I could say that Sisters have good fluff but they really don't. They're a good concept and are by far and away my favorite thing about 40k. I share many of Melissia's general sentiments, although we part ways significantly on the details, about their strengths and weaknesses (with the notable exception that I think the models are downright awesome). But there is very little that has been told about them. They're kind of like Dark Eldar in that way: the concept is very firmly established but when you take a closer look you find that there are huge gaps in significant areas. Some general discussion of Ecclesiarchical dogma and how the Sisters' beliefs fit into it all would be nice for a start.

Manchu wrote:I wish I could say that Sisters have good fluff but they really don't. They're a good concept and are by far and away my favorite thing about 40k. I share many of Melissia's general sentiments, although we part ways significantly on the details, about their strengths and weaknesses (with the notable exception that I think the models are downright awesome). But there is very little that has been told about them. They're kind of like Dark Eldar in that way: the concept is very firmly established but when you take a closer look you find that there are huge gaps in significant areas. Some general discussion of Ecclesiarchical dogma and how the Sisters' beliefs fit into it all would be nice for a start.

I'm of the (perhaps incorrect) opinion that there is actually very little dogma to the Imperial Cult. I view it as just another of the Imperium's countless mechanisms of control of its populace more than anything else. I don't claim to have read every bit of 40K fluff or ever BL book, but every one that I HAVE read has shown that the true, humane wisdom (or what one could loosely term as "religious wisdom") that one would think would be the province of the Ecclesiarchy comes from outsiders - even if they're Ecclesiarchy members, such as the priest in Gaunt's Ghosts, they're not exactly ones that appear to be in favor.

Sandy Mitchell is one of the "gakkier authors"?

But I must say, I do love how extreme the sisters are in their zealotry. They're admirably determined, to the point that their faith itself is a shield. Admittedly, they have very little in the way of fluff, so hopefully that can be improved in the future.

Also, the Penitent Engine is one of the most gorgeous models GW has ever made, so that's another reason to like WH.

Necroman wrote:Sandy Mitchell is one of the "gakkier authors"?

I think that some people are taking his books as a serious commentary on the 40K universe, and assuming it's all canon gospel

Gotta love Sandy Mitchell

I wish they would just create Codex: Inquisition and revamp Sister, Grey Knights, Ecclisiadfisubhs (can't spell it not going to try) in one book with lots of different potential list builds.

Mad props to Melissia for being honest about Witchhunters and not auto #1 becouse omgz fangirlness.

Forgotmytea wrote:

Necroman wrote:Sandy Mitchell is one of the "gakkier authors"?

I think that some people are taking his books as a serious commentary on the 40K universe, and assuming it's all canon gospel

Gotta love Sandy Mitchell

Obviously, being taken too seriously is a bit of a problem when the book is about a certain commissar.



Though it's a different matter when the book is one of his Dark Heresy novels. Of course, the only Sisters that have shown up in the latter are a couple of door guards. And since the muscle in those books is being provided by a Deathwatch squad, I doubt more of the Sororitas will turn up.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

LordWaffles wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I'm starting to think its a double bluff and SoB will come top

I'm pretty sure Eldar will be next, and I hope orks are top

Great thread BTW Melissa, I don't agree with you by any stretch of the imagination, but you put forward a good argument and its been a decent read

Gorechild you are a traitor and a fool. You're agreeing with someone who's never bothered to read anything about chaos marines yet feels the need to evaluate them based off that lack of knowledge. Well damn I suppose I should write a review for the "metaphysical concepts of space travel and why I think some are neato." Then I'll rank them in descending order from my least favourite, opinion-based review to my first favourite opinion-based review.

That being said I heard next edition space wolf long fangs get missiles for free and they all naturally pick different targets at will.

Chill out, dude, it's only a forum. Here, have a cup of tea.
Now, just remember that opinions are opinions and, if I may paraphrase Voltaire's famous maxim with regards to Melissia's posts; "Madam, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to spout gak on the internet."

A little confused as to where that came from, I think someone is getting a little too caught up with his plastic toys Gorskar pretty much summed up what I meant, thanks man

SoB was very supprising for 4th, I had now idea you held Eldar so highly Melissa! Its not likely, but if they win I'd be well happy. My bet is still on Orks though.

Always a pleasure, never a chore.
Personally, I'd love it if Orks came first, but I could also settle for IG. After all, IG are cool, despite their detractors; who can't find it in themselves to sympathise with ordinary men and women fighting giant alien horrors on a daily basis? Call it the underdog factor, but IG are a very worthy addition to the top three, and I'm glad they are there.

I'm more curious to see what she has to say about the Orks and Guard. I plan on purchasing the Guard's codex by the time the year is out and I won't lie in saying that if their not in the top 2 I might be a little miffed (but that's just me being biased towards people with balls of unobtanium). As for the Orks, she always mentions about taking them seriously and I'd like to see how she tackles this. Mainly for the sole reason to see how my opinion of them lines up with hers.

If I was to make a thread like this (don't worry its never going to happen ) I'd have the same top 3, but I'd put Eldar top simply because I love their fluff and how they play. I know thats won't happen here, but I competely agree with the top 3, so I'm not going to compain whatever happens.
As I see it the grimdark 40K universe is 95% Imperial Guard against the near infinte hoards of Ork (which sadly is not even close to being represented IRL), so both are more than worth of the top spot.

I share the same sentiment as Gorechild. It is Orks vs Imperial Guard and Eldar/Space Marines vs Chaos. This being sci-fi, it still has the same cliche(which is not bad at all, I love cliche) fight. Good vs Evil, Order vs Chaos. In 40k, the line is a bit blur, but the comparison is there.

I love Eldar fluff to bits. They have the potential for the richest background out of all races, not only because they're ancient(edited for courtesy of Flaming_Spider), also because they are described as very individualistic, with stirring and richly flavoured spirits, capable of great emotional extremes and experiecing everything with heightened sense, all the while maintaing outward emotional calm because they're well aware of where extremes may lead. This duality is really cool, because it actually makes a lot of sense, fluff-wise.

They are also the least Mary Sue'ish out of all races, in my view. Every other faction(except, incidentally, Orks and Imperial Guard) has some sort of exaggerated awesomeness to them.

Araenion wrote: not only because they're eldest,

That statement is incorrect, I'm afraid. While the Eldar are ancient, they are not so ancient as to hold the title of eldest. That belongs to the Necrons, who had already existed for hundreds of thousands of years before the Eldar came into existence. Ancient beyond belief, the Necrons were the first second race to come into existence, appearing mere centuries after the creation of the universe. The Eldar like to claim they are the oldest race, but they were created as weapons of the Old Ones during the war with the Necrons, a war which had been going on for centuries before the Eldar.

Sorry to call you out, but I felt that your statement needed to be corrected, being the Necron fanboy that I am.

Millions of years before the Eldar, possibly. They were one of the first forms of sentient life to appear.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Millions of years before the Eldar, possibly. They were one of the first forms of sentient life to appear.

Well, I do know they appeared 16 Billion years before the formation of Earth, but I'm not sure when the Eldar showed up, the timeline is kind of skewed that far back.

You're right, of course, I should've put the Necrons in brackets. Be that as it may, Necrons while eldest, currently have the thinnest fluff out of all races(only in my humble opinion, not to rile the Necron fanboy in you). So there you go.

Flaming_Spider wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Millions of years before the Eldar, possibly. They were one of the first forms of sentient life to appear.

Well, I do know they appeared 16 Billion years before the formation of Earth, but I'm not sure when the Eldar showed up, the timeline is kind of skewed that far back.

I thought the universe was only meant to be around 14 billion years old? Either way, you make a point there.

Man, missed another mark. Oh well. Safe to say, THIS time, Eldar are next.

I will dispense prophecy on the top 2 when the time is right.

Flaming_Spider wrote:I think that all the inquisition codices should be merged into one. They're all the same organization. Different branches, but the same organization. I'm also of the opinion that all the space marine codices should be merged as well, we don't need half the codices to be SM. Just give each of the "special" chapters it's own section, it doesn't need it's own codex. All that does is take the time they could be using to update the other codices.

Problem with that is, the Inquisition (from a codex standpoint) is NOT all one organization. The Inquisition itself consists of the Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus, and Ordo Malleus. These ARE all part of one organization. However, the Grey Knights are a chapter of Space Marines. They serve, in effect, as the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, but they are not actually PART of the Ordo. The Sisters of Battle are the militant arm of the Adepta Sororitas, which is, in turn, part of the Ecclesiarchy. They serve, in effect, as the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus, but again, are not actually PART of the Ordo. The only faction that's technically, by letter, part of the Inquisition is the Deathwatch, and even then it's tenuous as best - often they're considered their own chapter of Space Marines that happens to draw from every other chapter.

The Grey Knights, in my opinion, should not be lumped into a codex with the Inquisition. The Sisters absolutely should not. The Deathwatch I'm fine with, but honestly, I just want some damn options for my Deathwatch army that don't consist of simply using Codex: Space Marines.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I thought the universe was only meant to be around 14 billion years old?

Why would that even matter?

Chongara wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I thought the universe was only meant to be around 14 billion years old?

Why would that even matter?

Because that would make the 'Crons 6 billion years older than the universe itself. Oh wait, I see what you did there.
Yeah, that's probably it.

@Hazard: I don't think the Grey Knights or Deathwatch exist independently of the Inquisition but Adepta Sororitas defniitely does.

Yay! Eldar are in the top 3!

Manchu wrote:@Hazard: I don't think the Grey Knights or Deathwatch exist independently of the Inquisition but Adepta Sororitas defniitely does.

The Deathwatch doesn't, but the Grey Knights absolutely do.

Again, reading the Grey Knights novels makes this clear.

Also, nothing in the DH codex that I've seen explicitly states they're part of the Inquisition. So the lack of evidence for the "part of" conclusion and the Black Library novel evidence for the "not part of" conclusion leads me to believe they're separate, but often work as the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus.

What do the Grey Knights do that isn't Ordo Malleus business?

I get that they aren't themselves inquisitors but rather a Space Marine chapter (unlike the Deathwatch). However, they are inextricably linked to Ordo Malleus (even as a part of directing the Ordo, if Lexicanum is to be believed). The Sisters, by contrast, existed as a large and powerful institution long before the existence of Ordo Hereticus.

SaintHazard wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Hazard: I don't think the Grey Knights or Deathwatch exist independently of the Inquisition but Adepta Sororitas defniitely does.

The Deathwatch doesn't, but the Grey Knights absolutely do.

Again, reading the Grey Knights novels makes this clear.

Also, nothing in the DH codex that I've seen explicitly states they're part of the Inquisition. So the lack of evidence for the "part of" conclusion and the Black Library novel evidence for the "not part of" conclusion leads me to believe they're separate, but often work as the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus.

I may not remember this correctly, but I believe the DH codex states that Grey Knights will often refuse to aid radical inquisitors, or ones that they deem to be radical, hinting at some form of autonomy from the control of the Inquisition in that they may choose to offer their support or not.

Manchu wrote:What do the Grey Knights do that isn't Ordo Malleus business?

I'll dig some examples up tonight, it's been too long since I read the novels, I can't remember any specific examples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I may not remember this correctly, but I believe the DH codex states that Grey Knights will often refuse to aid radical inquisitors, or ones that they deem to be radical, hinting at some form of autonomy from the control of the Inquisition in that they may choose to offer their support or not.

Also, this.

@Gorskar: The Inquisition is officially puritanical. Radicals are suspect of collusion with the Ruinous Powers by definition. This is most harshly enforced by Ordo Malleus and especially by the Grey Knights, who brook no temptations whatsoever. The fact that they refuse to aid radicals is not evidence of autonomy. From everything I have read (codex, index astartes but not novels), a Grey Knight Grand Master has roughly equivalent authority to senior Inquisitors. This doesn't mean they are members of different institutions, more like directors of different departments.

Manchu wrote:@Gorskar: The Inquisition is officially puritanical. Radicals are suspect of collusion with the Ruinous Powers by definition. This is most harshly enforced by Ordo Malleus and especially by the Grey Knights, who brook no temptations whatsoever. The fact that they refuse to aid radicals is not evidence of autonomy. From everything I have read (codex, index astartes but not novels), a Grey Knight Grand Master has roughly equivalent authority to senior Inquisitors. This doesn't mean they are members of different institutions, more like directors of different departments.

You're both correct and incorrect here.

You are correct in that the Grey Knights do not have Chapter Masters, and that Grand Masters are the equivalent of a senior Inquisitor in terms of authority - in fact, Grey Knight Grand Masters are members of the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition.

However, you're incorrect in that their ability to refuse to aid a given Inquisitor does not indicate autonomy - quite the opposite. A given Inquisitor can and does exercise a lot of operational freedom. They're virtually not policed at all - the fact that they've graduated to being Inquisitors is usually evidence enough of their loyalty (and this is also directly from the Grey Knights novels, as well, for example in the beginning of the first novel, an Inquisitor is about the only person in the Ordo Malleus's Archives who doesn't have a gun-servitor pointing a boltgun at her head in case she goes insane from reading various arcane texts). Inquisitors are given leave to command Grey Knights detachments, but a Grand Master or even a Justicar can simply decline to aid the Inquisitor. Given that there are numerous schools of thought among the Inquisition, it's not entirely accurate to say that the Inquisition is entirely puritanical. The Ordo Malleus doesn't have to give the Grey Knights permission to decline an Inquisitor's orders.