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Necroman wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:Marines aren´t humans. They were humans. And they can feel affinity with humans like, say, a vampire do, but that´s all. The mere fact of their inmortality and invulnerability to disease aumotatically disqualify them to be part of a race which defines itself by its flaws and its strenghts, not only by the former.

Er... You do realize that not all flaws are caused by disease/death, right?

The assumption that marines aren't flawed is ridiculous. Without the flaws of space marines, there would have been no Horus Heresy.

I should have used the word weaknesses -physical wise- instead of flaws. My bad.

Wiglaf wrote:

Necroman wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:Marines aren´t humans. They were humans. And they can feel affinity with humans like, say, a vampire do, but that´s all. The mere fact of their inmortality and invulnerability to disease aumotatically disqualify them to be part of a race which defines itself by its flaws and its strenghts, not only by the former.

Er... You do realize that not all flaws are caused by disease/death, right?

The assumption that marines aren't flawed is ridiculous. Without the flaws of space marines, there would have been no Horus Heresy.

I should have used the word weaknesses -physical wise- instead of flaws. My bad.

Even so, I think it's a stretch to say that humanity defines itself merely by its strengths and weaknesses.

Very much enjoying the rankings although I disagree with them a lot of the arguments you make are valid. Keep it up

LordWaffles wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I'm starting to think its a double bluff and SoB will come top

I'm pretty sure Eldar will be next, and I hope orks are top

Great thread BTW Melissa, I don't agree with you by any streach of the imagination, but you put forward a good argument and its been a decent read

Gorechild you are a traitor and a fool. You're agreeing with someone who's never bothered to read anything about chaos marines yet feels the need to evaluate them based off that lack of knowledge. Well damn I suppose I should write a review for the "metaphysical concepts of space travel and why I think some are neato." Then I'll rank them in descending order from my least favourite, opinion-based review to my first favourite opinion-based review.

That being said I heard next edition space wolf long fangs get missiles for free and they all naturally pick different targets at will.

Chill out, dude, it's only a forum. Here, have a cup of tea.
Now, just remember that opinions are opinions and, if I may paraphrase Voltaire's famous maxim with regards to Melissia's posts; "Madam, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to spout gak on the internet."

Seaward wrote:
Even so, I think it's a stretch to say that humanity defines itself merely by its strengths and weaknesses.

Didn´t say merely... but they´re just an essential part of the mix, if you remove either of those there´s no humanity to speak of.

To the surprise of some people I'm sure, the next one is:

4: WITCH HUNTERS


There's a lot I like about the army, from a fluff standpoint. Sisters, especially. The best of the best that humanity can offer, trained to-- and sometimes past-- the human limits, resistant to psychic power through sheer willpower and belief, loyal to a fault and brave to a tee. Though still most assuredly human, they yet at the same time surpass the normal human capabilities, their skill and agility in their power armor eventually raising to match the Astartes... or even exceed it in the most talented cases, due to their special training and utmost dedication. The issues facing Sisters aren't a matter of whether or not they might betray the Imperium (which doesn't happen outside of psychic mind control that can effect even Space Marines with its power), but rather whether or not they succeed or fail in their attempts to catch heresy and betrayal. The traitors attempt to use Sisters for their own benefits, and Sisters must always be vigilant to make sure that this does not succeed... all the while they must also protect the innocent and defend the faithful. In such a galaxy as 40k, these duties constantly conflict, creating a tension in the Sisters' duties that prevent them from being mary sue while still keeping them relatively "good" (as much as anything in 40k can be "good").

The army list, that is the parts that don't suck, has a unique playstyle-- short-ranged shooty in a way that no other army manages to encapsulate. Bolter shock and flamers, are the bread and butter, steak and potatoes, and some other forms of common foodstuffs for the Sisters army-- to the extreme that even armies which have access to equivalents (Space Marines, Orks to an extent, Necrons) just don't compare. In close combat, Sisters rely upon their numbers and skill rather than their raw strength or toughness, as shown by the numbers of Battle Sister Squads, the unparalleled talent Seraphim have in hit and run tactics, or the unmatched skill of Celestians (Holy Hatred). Sadly, this list is very limited.

The HQ choice is good... but really limiting. She's statted out for ranged combat, but she can only really be equipped for close combat. Celestians are okay out of the Elites choice, but they're very limited by the fact that they have no free frags, and no BP+CCW or some other equipment to make them better in close combat (like Sarissas or some such), the other choice I won't even bother with. Battle Sisters are the core of the army, as despite being overcosted they're still very useful, clinging to Acts of Faith and mechanization in order to ensure the army stands a chance. The FA choices are useful, if overcosted, with Seraphim definitely on top. Similarly with the HS choices, the Exorcist comes on top by a long shot. Their transports are overcosted, with the Immolator basically just being an overpriced razorback (BA razorbacks are better).

The Inquisitor Lord is interesting from a game perspective, but from a fluff perspective I find it entirely droll as I don't see combat as an Inquisitor's job. Same with the Elite Inquisitor. Most of the time people just take those because they want the hood, and for no other reason. Stormtroopers aren't as good as Sisters, and never were, but they have their uses (mostly plasma spam with lots of small units) if you really, really have to have them in your list. Assassins I never really bother with... they have a few tricks, but save for one particular one they don't usually really help win battles compared to their cost (including the required Inquisitor).

The priest, if he actually started out with any equipment, would be better than the one the IG has, but s/he doesn't. Not even an armor save. But s/he does have the option to have power armor and other equipment that can make him/her worth taking, and taking him/her unlocks Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines. The former is a bit overpriced, but actually not all that bad, rather deadly and can be hard to kill. The latter is far, far more deadly, but also far, far easier to kill despite (or perhaps because of) being a vehicle squadron, and an open topped vehicle with AV11 to boot.

The fluff also has issues. Sisters are often abused as the scratching post of the galaxy, and the overwhelming majority of their fluff revolves around them losing fights, with only a very small portion showing them as the competent, capable soldiers they are. And the models... there was a thread that was what, over twenty five pages on that subject? And it wasn't the first. Enough has been said on that-- suffice it to say I like most of the models, but I despise the corset and boob cups style chest/abdomen armor.

All in all... they're my favorite faction. But goddamn does GW need to do a better job making them more appealing to more people. It's like GW's handling of Avatars-- apparently beating one up is a rite of passage for chapter masters now. I'm hoping that the new codex will focus on the aspects of Sisters that don't suck rather than focusing on the "omg martyrs let's have them kill themselves like lemmings!" bullgakt that some of the gakkier "authors" in BL try and do.

I agree with the point on the fluff making them too easy to kill - it's got to be remembered that these warrior-nuns are wearing Power Armour not dissimilar to that worn by SMs and are also equipped with boltguns, something else that is generally only found en masse in the ranks of the Astartes. It just doesn't make sense to have them flattened so easily.

Also, I would assume the elite choice you didn't mention are the Repentia. I guess the idea of naked paper-wearing chainsaw-nuns getting a 4+ armour save somehow annoyed you too.

Also, they suck competitively too. They're only really beat out by the space pope for sheer uselessness.

Melissia wrote:
There's a lot I like about the army, from a fluff standpoint. Sisters, especially. The best of the best that humanity can offer, trained to-- and sometimes past-- the human limits, resistant to psychic power through sheer willpower and belief, loyal to a fault and brave to a tee. Though still most assuredly human, they yet at the same time surpass the normal human capabilities, their skill and agility in their power armor eventually raising to match the Astartes... or even exceed it in the most talented cases, due to their special training and utmost dedication. The issues facing Sisters aren't a matter of whether or not they might betray the Imperium (which doesn't happen outside of psychic mind control that can effect even Space Marines with its power), but rather whether or not they succeed or fail in their attempts to catch heresy and betrayal. The traitors attempt to use Sisters for their own benefits, and Sisters must always be vigilant to make sure that this does not succeed... all the while they must also protect the innocent and defend the faithful. In such a galaxy as 40k, these duties constantly conflict, creating a tension in the Sisters' duties that prevent them from being mary sue while still keeping them relatively "good" (as much as anything in 40k can be "good").

I bolded the parts that I enjoyed the most.

Melissia wrote:Also, they suck competitively too. They're only really beat out by the space pope for sheer uselessness.

And fetishy fanservice.
Let's not forget that, now.

I gotta admit, if I have a female character in my army (which, I do!!) they should look shmexy. The nuns look a little too 'butch' IMO. GW are getting better though and as we can see with the new DE look, they have improved.

Moving on though, Id love to see a new Codex and mini's for the WH. That would be super cool as I love their style.

Good thread so far, I was surprised Eldar beat Witch Hunters! Agree with most of what you said so far, hope the Guard win!

If it wasn't for the uber butch models (I don't want super sexy armor, but SoB look like men in drag), and the large number of crap units in their army, I'd definatly take them up. They have excelent fluff, I love the idea of Space Paladin/nuns, and there is just so much they could do with SoB but do not, and it really sucks.

A shame we won't be seeing a new codex for a good sum of time most likely. The way GW treats them, I could see them merging Daemon Hunters with the Witch Hunters for the next codex.

At the moment, the tentative schedule is like this:

Dark Eldar (duh), Grey Knights, Necrons, Sisters, Tau

So I suspect Sisters will get updated six months after Grey Knights.

Namica wrote:If it wasn't for the uber butch models (I don't want super sexy armor, but SoB look like men in drag), and the large number of crap units in their army, I'd definatly take them up. They have excelent fluff, I love the idea of Space Paladin/nuns, and there is just so much they could do with SoB but do not, and it really sucks.

A shame we won't be seeing a new codex for a good sum of time most likely. The way GW treats them, I could see them merging Daemon Hunters with the Witch Hunters for the next codex.

I think it would be cool if they did this, but added in Zenos, I would definatly play them then. I think it would also be cool if they releced one of them more focases on the Inquasition aspect, not the Grey Knight/ Sisters of Battle/ Deathwatch forces.
but thats just me..

I'd rather it be completely separate Grey Knights, Sisters, and Inquisition codices. But it looks to be Grey Knights / Inquisition and Sisters / Ecclesiarchy instead, as two separate codices.

The combined Inquisition codex is one of the dumbest ideas ever posted.

Melissia wrote:I'd rather it be completely separate Grey Knights, Sisters, and Inquisition codices. But it looks to be Grey Knights / Inquisition and Sisters / Ecclesiarchy instead, as two separate codices.

The combined Inquisition codex is one of the dumbest ideas ever posted.

I think it'll be Grey Knights/Inquisition and Sisters/Inquisition, actually, as that makes the most sense.

Nope, what makes the most sense is Sisters/Ecclesiarchy, actually making it a different faction as well as calling back fluff from the past. Just adding in a bunch of copy/pasted units from another codex does not make it endearing.

Melissia wrote:Nope, what makes the most sense is Sisters/Ecclesiarchy, actually making it a different faction as well as calling back fluff from the past. Just adding in a bunch of copy/pasted units from another codex does not make it endearing.

I think it does, and all of this is nothing but subjective opinion. What other forces does the Ecclesiarchy have aside from Sisters? Frateris Militia? They'd actually be worse individually than the average Imperial Guardsman if they stuck to their fluff, so might as well just use Imperial Guardsmen for them.

Seaward wrote:They'd actually be worse individually than the average Imperial Guardsman if they stuck to their fluff, so might as well just use Imperial Guardsmen for them.

Ecclesiarchy would be: Arco-Flagellants, Penitent Engines, Frateris Militia, Crusaders, Priests, and possibly others. Frateris Militia could work quite well as crazed cheap meat shields. Mob weapons (counting as LP+CCW), furious charge while led by a priest, eviscerator and exterminator upgrades, etc.

Melissia wrote:

Seaward wrote:They'd actually be worse individually than the average Imperial Guardsman if they stuck to their fluff, so might as well just use Imperial Guardsmen for them.

Ecclesiarchy would be: Arco-Flagellants, Penitent Engines, Frateris Militia, Crusaders, Priests.

Aren't Penitent Engines already included in the WH list? My codex is in storage somewhere.

I dunno. I think the rest, with the exception of Arco-Flagellants, would end up being pretty impractical from a gaming standpoint. While I actually like the idea of a vast, ill-trained mob of fanatics, it'd be a pain to actually get on the table and work with. Plus, aren't Zealots or something already in the codex?

Arco-Flagellants, Priests, and Penitent Engines are already in WH. They're unlocked by taking a Priest, IE, they're Ecclesiarchal, not Inquisitorial.

The inquisition in C:WH is little more than a half-assed, careles, and lazy copy/paste from DH, with a few minor changes that only served to make them WORSE than in DH. The primary substance of the codex is, and has always been, Sisters and Ecclesiarchy. Removing the Inquisition and letting them shine in the Daemonhunters/Grey Knights codex and then bringing back the old fluff of Sisters would be much more appropriate. Giving them their own codex would be moreso, but that is unlikely at this point.

Zealots are a White Dwarf unit, which basically function as Repentia that don't quite suck as much as Repentia (but still suck). Frateris Militia are a second edition unit. Effectively, I'm thinking something like conscript stats, but much better morale (perhaps even fearless?) and furious charge along with upgrades. Other possibilities are giving them stubbers (R18", S3 AP-, Assault 2?) with purchasable heavy stubbers and other similar low-tech, cheap weaponry.

Melissia wrote:Arco-Flagellants, Priests, and Penitent Engines are already in WH. They're unlocked by taking a Priest, IE, they're Ecclesiarchal, not Inquisitorial.

The inquisition in C:WH is little more than a half-assed, careles, and lazy copy/paste from DH, with a few minor changes that only served to make them WORSE than in DH. The primary substance of the codex is, and has always been, Sisters and Ecclesiarchy. Removing the Inquisition and letting them shine in the Daemonhunters/Grey Knights codex and then bringing back the old fluff of Sisters would be much more appropriate. Giving them their own codex would be moreso, but that is unlikely at this point.

Zealots are a White Dwarf unit, which basically function as Repentia that don't quite suck as much as Repentia (but still suck). Frateris Militia are a second edition unit. Effectively, I'm thinking something like conscript stats, but much better morale (perhaps even fearless?) and furious charge along with upgrades. Other possibilities are giving them stubbers (R18", S3 AP-, Assault 2?) with purchasable heavy stubbers and other similar low-tech, cheap weaponry.

That would be cool. I have some guard models that could go either way on what codex they will use. (DH/WH/IG) But Sisters got fourth... Wow, now my bets are on Eldar, IG, and orks. (If eldar win, I also call that )

I think what I want to see is all of the inq ordos in one place, but not necessarily in their own codex. So if it boils down to Codex: Ecclesiarchy/SOB and Codex: GK/Inq (all ordos) that's fine with me.

If they decided to split it into, three which doesn't seem to be the case, that would be ok too as far as I'm concerned.

I just like the idea of secret space agents going around the galaxy, and would rather not have to get like 3 dexes just so I could have alien, witch, and daemon hunter varieties.

Incidentally, I believe the order of the remaining few to be Edlar, Orks, IG.
Let's see if I'm right. I hope so.

I think that all the inquisition codices should be merged into one. They're all the same organization. Different branches, but the same organization. I'm also of the opinion that all the space marine codices should be merged as well, we don't need half the codices to be SM. Just give each of the "special" chapters it's own section, it doesn't need it's own codex. All that does is take the time they could be using to update the other codices.

If they did that, the codex for SM would be wider than I am tall.
There's a reason that the codexes are split the way they are, and though I can understand your point, I think that some of the chapters (or branches of the inquisition) are so varied that it would be impossible to mash them into one book without losing a lot of their character.

asimo77 wrote:I think what I want to see is all of the inq ordos in one place, but not necessarily in their own codex. So if it boils down to Codex: Ecclesiarchy/SOB and Codex: GK/Inq (all ordos) that's fine with me.

If they decided to split it into, three which doesn't seem to be the case, that would be ok too as far as I'm concerned.

I just like the idea of secret space agents going around the galaxy, and would rather not have to get like 3 dexes just so I could have alien, witch, and daemon hunter varieties.

The only problem I have with the Inquisition in general is that I don't see fighting the sort of generalist battles that occur on the tabletop as their "thing." Grey Knights exist to fight daemons, not to go out and pound on Orks or Tau; the Deathwatch are specifically xenos hunters, so they'd work for a lot of match-ups, but they ain't got a codex; and while the SoBs aren't officially the Ordo Hereticus' militant arm, they are unofficially just that, in addition to being the brutal enforcer for the Ecclesiarchy. There's fluff examples of them turning up in all sorts of odd fights, so there's at least precedent for them being everywhere as Astartes-light.

My problem with THEM, though, is the whole reason for their existence; the decree that took away the Ecclesiarchy's army stated that no men under arms would be allowed to them, so they use women instead. That the rest of the Imperium's reaction to the Ecclesiarchy avoiding the spirit of the law was one of, "Oh, you rascals, you got us!" is just one of those eye-rollingly bad pieces of fluff for me.

So really, it's all just minor fluff annoyances for me with the "Inquisitorial" armies, but it's why I've never really been interested in them - save for when I first read Eisenhorn and immediately went out and bought both the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters codices.

I just love the inq too much, I want to see them on table top :(

As far as inq not having armies or fighting generalist battles, I was thinking that their neat thing would be their mix of troops.

They'll get some GEQ's (with BS4) through IST, some MEQ's through Deathwatch, of course the own uniquness of inquisitors themselves and assassins, and probably more units that GW can think of.

I'm all for splitting the SOB/Ecclesiarchy from Inq and even GK but that's just a crazy pipe dream of mine.

Forgot to add: the different ordos could be represented through something akin to Chaos marks or IG stormtroopers special missions rules, and of course varied wargear among inquisitors.

Final 3? I'm giddy with anticipation!