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remilia_scarlet wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Yep, they just really really liked some of the shiny stuff the Witch Hunters had. So they made their own version of some of it.

*points at Sanguinor and Infernus Pistol*

"I'm not a space marine, I want to be unique >:T" - random adeptus sororitas.

"I'm not a normal space marine, I want to be unique" - random Black Templar, Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Grey Knight or Dark Angel.

I honestly didn't care for them when I played them, now, I think I'll keep them in my closet another 5 years.

I'm actually considering shelving them myself at the moment, or rather just letting them stay as they are until the proper codex comes out and invalidates a few loadouts this WD codex makes.

thehod wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but dont BA Razorbacks get TL heavy flamers for 55 points (tacticals) and are fast without any sort of negatives? Not to mention with 5 marines and a melta for close to 150 points (20 points).

Just one of the reasons people are so unhappy.

The Grog wrote:

thehod wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but dont BA Razorbacks get TL heavy flamers for 55 points (tacticals) and are fast without any sort of negatives? Not to mention with 5 marines and a melta for close to 150 points (20 points).

Just one of the reasons people are so unhappy.

Immolaters are just plain terrible before they are compared to a BA fast razorback. They should be 50 points or less.

10 sisters with 2 meltas and a rhino clock in at 180, which is about on par with 205 for 10 BA with 2 meltas and a rhino. The FNP and FC do put the BA>sisters, but that's the fault of priests being completely broken and not the cost of the assault marines. 180 for 10 sisters with 2 meltas in a rhino>210 for 10 tac marines with 1 melta and 1 mm in a rhino. There is just no good way to put an entire tac marine squad in a rhino and make effective use of their heavy and special weapon at the same time.

125 for 5 dominions with 2 melta gun in a rhino>148 for 5 assault marines with 1 melta in a razorback. 5 dominions with 2 meltas in a rhino is a solid unit that can outflank and use their act of faith to TL the melta shots without disembarking from the rhino. From a competitive standpoint the unit is nothing short of amazing for it's cost, but that all comes at the price of them competing with seraphims that are terrible now and compete for the same force org.

If every sisters army has the same 3 exorcists for HS, the same 3 dominions for FA, Saint Celestine, Old Man Urias, and the same 10 sister duel melta+rhino squads in troops the result is all sisters lists will look the same. It's like going to Baskin Robbins only to find out they are serving 31 varieties of mint chocolate chip ice cream, each one distinct and different from the others in very subtle ways.

The 1 build is ok, but without multiple competitive builds sisters will not attract many new players especially when combined with uncertainty of how their eventual real codex will be supported.

Deepeyes wrote:I would like them to get vendettas personally. All those sexy lc, it would help with their long range AT.

I had some great fun running air cav with a bunch of sisters supported by vets, all in valkyries/vendettas. Sisters with Furious Charge and Counter-Attack were great.

remilia_scarlet wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Yep, they just really really liked some of the shiny stuff the Witch Hunters had. So they made their own version of some of it.

*points at Sanguinor and Infernus Pistol*

"I'm not a space marine, I want to be unique >:T" - random adeptus sororitas.

I play marines and I don't get half that. Just send a letter with an unknown white powder to matt ward. He'll understand.

n0t_u wrote:
*points at Sanguinor and Infernus Pistol*

Dante's Inferno Pistol predates the Witchunters one by 15 years.

DarknessEternal wrote:

n0t_u wrote:
*points at Sanguinor and Infernus Pistol*

Dante's Inferno Pistol predates the Witchunters one by 15 years.

Marines want their command squad back as well

Immolaters are just plain terrible before they are compared to a BA fast razorback. They should be 50 points or less.

Dont have the codexes in front of me now but what does the immolator cost compared to a SM heavy flamer razorback again?

Same price as a C:SM razorback with TL-HF.

pretre wrote:Same price as a C:SM razorback with TL-HF.

Given the fact that it's the exact same thing that makes sense.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Same price as a C:SM razorback with TL-HF.

Given the fact that it's the exact same thing that makes sense.

Except that its too much for both SM and Sisters. Apparently Mat Ward thought so as well since Blood Angels only pay 55 points for theirs and its fast as well.

andrewm9 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Same price as a C:SM razorback with TL-HF.

Given the fact that it's the exact same thing that makes sense.

Except that its too much for both SM and Sisters. Apparently Mat Ward thought so as well since Blood Angels only pay 55 points for theirs and its fast as well.

Well at least sisters get storm bolters for 3. I still pay 10. Watching this stuff creep along is dreadful.

Actually, by the lore, the Immolator uses its own unique STC, in fact, it's the STC from which the Hellhound is derived.

Melissia wrote:Actually, by the lore, the Immolator uses its own unique STC, in fact, it's the STC from which the Hellhound is derived.

It sure looks like a rhino with a glass window attached to a hole on top.

ShumaGorath wrote:It sure looks like a rhino with a glass window attached to a hole on top.

Actually, that's because the way you build a Rhino from an Immolator Kit is to put a glass window over the hole in the top - but I can see where someone who's not messed around with the kit would be confused given that half of the photos show them with SM Rhinos, and half with this weird Rhino-esque-thing.

The Immolator itself actually has a manned turret towards the front of the roof, to which the twin-linked weapons are attached. If you're assembling it as an Immolator and not a Rhino, the glass cover is actually a viewport that sits at the front of the turret - you can see it on the Games Workshop website, if you're interested

Given the fact that it's the exact same thing that makes sense.

Dunno, somehow all the SoB fans keep thinking they are entitled to a cheaper version of the very same thing SM get.

Actually, by the lore, the Immolator uses its own unique STC, in fact, it's the STC from which the Hellhound is derived.

Own STC addon rather. They are still based on the very same STC chassi.

Mythal wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:It sure looks like a rhino with a glass window attached to a hole on top.

Actually, that's because the way you build a Rhino from an Immolator Kit is to put a glass window over the hole in the top - but I can see where someone who's not messed around with the kit would be confused given that half of the photos show them with SM Rhinos, and half with this weird Rhino-esque-thing.

The Immolator itself actually has a manned turret towards the front of the roof, to which the twin-linked weapons are attached. If you're assembling it as an Immolator and not a Rhino, the glass cover is actually a viewport that sits at the front of the turret - you can see it on the Games Workshop website, if you're interested

I was thinking of the immolator, it's just attached vertically

Pyriel- wrote:Dunno, somehow all the SoB fans keep thinking they are entitled to a cheaper version of the very same thing SM get.

That's essentialist, derogatory and, therefore, impolite.

I think the Heavy Flamer Immolator is priced fine. The issue seems to be that GW refused to price it universally the same as the Razorback - instead, they arbitrarily declared that rerolling less than 3 heavy bolter wounds per game turn was worth 25 points. A better move if they wanted direct parity would have been to price the Immolator on the basis of being equipped with T-L Heavy Bolters, and cost the upgrades in line with the C:SM Razorback, making the differences between the two purely related to their twin-linked anti-tank upgrade (and, of course, aesthetic).

Edit:

ShumaGorath wrote:I was thinking of the immolator, it's just attached vertically

Ahh - mea culpa, I misunderstood what you were getting at.

That's essentialist, derogatory and, therefore, impolite.

But that also happens to be 100% correct.
Also it doesnt include any insults or hints of such, it simply states a fact that shines throughout this whole thread. Sorry if you got insulted, wasnt my intention.
Granted I should have changed the "all" for "majority" but still.

SoB fans do complain, whine, argue, nag, whatever, about immolators needing to be cheaper then their SM equivalents.

I think the Heavy Flamer Immolator is priced fine. The issue seems to be that GW refused to price it universally the same as the Razorback - instead, they arbitrarily declared that rerolling less than 3 heavy bolter wounds per game turn was worth 25 points. A better move if they wanted direct parity would have been to price the Immolator on the basis of being equipped with T-L Heavy Bolters, and cost the upgrades in line with the C:SM Razorback, making the differences between the two purely related to their twin-linked anti-tank upgrade (and, of course, aesthetic).

I somewhat agree.
I think the immolator should come with a HB as base and cost 5p more then the SM base razorback due to the wound rerolls and 6++.
Then the same pricing rules would be applied as the SM razorback pays to upgrade to HF.

All in all I think every SM based vehicle (rhino, razorback, immolators etc) should have price reductions on peripheral upgrades like stormbolters since they are overpriced.

Pyriel- wrote:Granted I should have changed the "all" for "majority"

Which was rather my point - I don't feel the Immolator with T-L Heavy Flamers is overpriced, hence "all" manifestly can't apply.

Pyriel- wrote:SoB fans do complain, whine, argue, nag, whatever, about immolators needing to be cheaper then their SM equivalents.

Ahh - for that, blame Mat Ward. Before the new WD Codex, from the perspective of an SoB player, the Heavy Flamer Immolator was very reasonably priced - 65 points, with pseudo-fast, and a firepoint (which is represented by an extensively modelled top hatch).

In exchange, they paid over the odds for T-L Multi-Meltas, and chronically over the odds for T-L Heavy Bolters (5 points less for the bolters than a 5th edition C:SM player pays for T-L Lascannons or Las-Plas, to put it in perspective). But there was at least some give and take in the arrangement - the pseudo-fast and firepoint in particular. It wasn't 'proper' fast, because the vehicle didn't gain a Flat Out move. Instead, it could fire the flamers (and only the flamers) if it moved at cruising speed.

Then, along comes Codex: Blood Angels. With its fast FLAMER Predator - exactly the sort of tank that the SoB players had been clamouring for to represent the Holy Trinity of weapons, while still remaining uniquely removed from Space Marines. And, on top of that, fast FLAMERbacks costing 10 points less than the Immolator. Not pseudo-fast, not limited by the Holy Trinity in its upgrade options, just faster and cheaper. But, even then, it gives hope - evidently Mat Ward feels that the firepoint is worth the 10 points, that's fine.

And then the new Codex comes out, the Immolator loses both its pseudo-fast and firepoint, gains a 6++ save that RAW say can never be taken, and still costs the same. Now, I can take a step back and say "Okay, this is just Cruddace trying to maintain parity with the Space Marine Razorback, and just being as clumsy as a three-legged tortoise in the process - and C:BA isn't C:SM and was costed insanely badly, which was Ward dropping the ball." But similarly, I understand there'll be people who're frustrated about it - particularly when taken in light of it being the SoB's only properly armed transport, and the Repressor not even being legalised as a 'get you by' measure.

Things will quieten down now that the new Codex is out, and nobody's waiting for another shoe to drop any more.

Then, along comes Codex: Blood Angels. With its fast FLAMER Predator - exactly the sort of tank that the SoB players had been clamouring for to represent the Holy Trinity of weapons, while still remaining uniquely removed from Space Marines. And, on top of that, fast FLAMERbacks costing 10 points less than the Immolator. Not pseudo-fast, not limited by the Holy Trinity in its upgrade options, just faster and cheaper. But, even then, it gives hope - evidently Mat Ward feels that the firepoint is worth the 10 points, that's fine.

Well that+s irrelevant as specialist codexes get new/better things here and worse there.
BA hammernators cost more for example.

Space pup longfangs are a ton better then SM devs and they get more meltas and flamers in their squads then salamanders do etc etc.
At the same time they pay in other areas so it evens out.
Thus if SoB players thing they are the only ones seeing other armies getting what that they think should be theirs then they are wrong.

Pyriel- wrote:Thus if SoB players thing they are the only ones seeing other armies getting what that they think should be theirs then they are wrong.

Didn't say it was right - in fact, I went on to explain why I disagreed with the view But it's human nature. Look at socialism.

Pyriel- wrote:All in all I think every SM based vehicle (rhino, razorback, immolators etc) should have price reductions on peripheral upgrades like stormbolters since they are overpriced.

That depends on perspective. SM vehicles compared to BA and GK vehicles would be slightly overcosted. But SM vehicles compared to the majority of MC would be severely undercosted.

I would prefer to see vehicles, especially transports, get significant price hikes to account for thier increased survivability and increased tactical utility. Of course given the continued power creep of vehicles in 5th edition codices, I doubt that will happen.

Pyriel- wrote:

Then, along comes Codex: Blood Angels. With its fast FLAMER Predator - exactly the sort of tank that the SoB players had been clamouring for to represent the Holy Trinity of weapons, while still remaining uniquely removed from Space Marines. And, on top of that, fast FLAMERbacks costing 10 points less than the Immolator. Not pseudo-fast, not limited by the Holy Trinity in its upgrade options, just faster and cheaper. But, even then, it gives hope - evidently Mat Ward feels that the firepoint is worth the 10 points, that's fine.

Well that+s irrelevant as specialist codexes get new/better things here and worse there.
BA hammernators cost more for example.

Space pup longfangs are a ton better then SM devs and they get more meltas and flamers in their squads then salamanders do etc etc.
At the same time they pay in other areas so it evens out.
Thus if SoB players thing they are the only ones seeing other armies getting what that they think should be theirs then they are wrong.

As far as I have ever been able to tell the only area they pay in is 5 points for hammernators. Virtually every choice in both the space wolf and blood angels books that aren't exact copies of a unit in C:SM are superior in some way without costing more. Likewise in Grey Knights. Vulkan and those terminators are about the only thing keeping C:SM even remotely competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mythal wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:Thus if SoB players thing they are the only ones seeing other armies getting what that they think should be theirs then they are wrong.

Didn't say it was right - in fact, I went on to explain why I disagreed with the view But it's human nature. Look at socialism.

Yeah, scandanavia is totally overpowered with it's socialism trait. It's not fair that they all get FnP from their social healthcare system but still make more per model then we do while paying the same points cost after you consider the default upgrades we have to buy (We're like the only codex still having to pay for insurance grenades, and our's don't even work as well).

The grass is always greener on the other codex...



As far as THIS codex goes, I think it lacks flavor (or 'flavour' )... I 'get' that the 6++ on everything Sister-ish and the faith system is our special rule, but I don't think it's substantial... novel yes, substantial - no.

The faith system lacks variation, imo: most of the powers (save for a few - eg. retributors, seraphims) have to do with HITTING the enemy... nothing to do with WOUNDING the enemy. When that is very much a big issue for this army in CC (along with 3 initiative, but that's not my point).

*edit* hit submit too soon >.<

Also... this army is all about fire and flame and cleansing... where are the 'set the building on fire' or 'create inferno dangerous terrain' rules or something colorful like that?! Yeesh... seems just too quickly done, that's all.

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, scandanavia is totally overpowered with it's socialism trait. It's not fair that they all get FnP from their social healthcare system but still make more per model then we do while paying the same points cost after you consider the default upgrades we have to buy (We're like the only codex still having to pay for insurance grenades, and our's don't even work as well).

Actually, it varies whether you're playing Vanilla Scandinavia, or one of the specific Chapters.

Pyriel- wrote:

That's essentialist, derogatory and, therefore, impolite.

But that also happens to be 100% correct.
Also it doesnt include any insults or hints of such, it simply states a fact that shines throughout this whole thread. Sorry if you got insulted, wasnt my intention.
Granted I should have changed the "all" for "majority" but still.

SoB fans do complain, whine, argue, nag, whatever, about immolators needing to be cheaper then their SM equivalents.

Maybe because SoB only get 2 shooting transport variants, with one of them being massively worse than the SM equiv and one of them being the same. As they do not get access to las/plas and TLplas, not to mention even dual AC, they do deserve cheaper immolators. If you can't understand the fundamentals behind that concept, then this website is probably too complicated for you.

Pyriel- wrote:Well that+s irrelevant as specialist codexes get new/better things here and worse there.

And the army that invented the TLHF Razorback/Immolator doesn't count?