Posted By scuddman on 08/14/2007 7:38 AM

Why is something like warp scream better and less bland than +1 initiative?  When you break it down, isn't it essentially the same thing written in a more concise and cleaner form?

I'd take warp scream over +1 initiative in a heartbeat.  The ability to charge stealers with demonettes / noise marines and then furious charge my speed lord in there - and therefore go BEFORE the stealers - is obviously impossible without warp scream, and likewise in the new codex.  Warp scream affects the enemy and +1 initiative is just that, a boost to one models initiative characteristic.  Look to lash if you need to see how intense powers that affect the enemy are when taken to extremes.

Also, "warp scream" is waaaaaaaay more unique and cool sounding than "+1 initiative."  Hard to argue otherwise

- Salvage

Posted By AgeOfEgos on 08/14/2007 6:26 AM

Then keep playing the old dex?  Or make up whatever you thinks fitting with the fluff?  As I stated before, the only reason I care about rules is how it will effect new model releases.  When I play a tournament, meh to how a power list plays...we all go mainly to see other painted armies and meet new players. 

I would state it's extremely early to decide how competitive this list will be in tournaments.  Very early ^^.

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I honestly think this is going to be the first codex that will stay in use after the new one hits, at least in friendly play.  I, for one, would allow anybody that wanted to use it to keep using it. 

And my point about competetivness wasn't to prove that it's a strong codex, but that there's enough potential to be strong that people aren't worried solely about a loss of power.

I love the way you approach tournies, I do that sometimes, but don't forget that the new lists are designed for tournament play, and that a lot of folks play to play, and play to win. 

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

Posted By Blackmoor on 08/14/2007 7:57 AM
I am just happy I can use my horrors and my screamers again!

True grit was supposed to represent that you had a bolter in one hand and a close combat weapon in the other.  It essentially gave you the ability to use the bolter with the drawback that you didn't get a charge bonus. 

So much easier to represent that you could use both a bolter and two hand weapons by giving all 3 to a marine.  Less confusion, less learning about special rules, still essentially the same.  It's not EXACTLY the same...I didn't say it was exactly the same.  However, why have a special rule when you can represent it with the current rules? 

Ditto with warp scream vs. +1 initiative.  It's not exactly the same, but it's ESSENTIALLY the same.  The only time it's different is in a few cases...and helps to illustrate why I didn't like the warp scream special rule.  It's like a loophole to keep your powerfist from going last against orcs.  It's a side effect of a special rule that shafts orcs.  It's dumb. 

This is opinion here:  Iron warriors was the most obvious, but it was not the only broken list.  Very few people played a shooty nightlords list, but 3+ cover saves are slowed...and very powerful.

Posted By Janthkin on 08/14/2007 9:04 AM

So while some folks clearly feel the need to fetch their pitchforks and torches out to storm the GW castle. . .I for one have long been waiting for this day!

So speaks someone who doesn't own thousands of dollars' worth of daemons.

Now, where'd I leave my pitchfork....

Posted By Therion- on 08/14/2007 6:02 AM
Personally I'm very disappointed that the daemons turned out like this and GW may yet turn this daemon debacle into a complete disaster if the upcoming Daemon Codex doesn't include LaTD but is indeed simply some poor version of the Warhammer Fantasy Daemon Legions. I'm not sure this bothers everyone as much as it does me because a lot of people refused to use daemons even in their previous incarnations, and almost noone plays LaTD. I'm just sad to see so much squandered potential.

I sure hope I'm wrong, but when you add up what scant rumors we have about the second codex, I think it points to it being daemon-only.  And that would be a huge wasted opportunity.  Heck, they wasted an opportunity by keeping this codex CSM-only.  Some mutants or cultists might have created more differentiation from loyalists, at least.

But as we know, daemons sell just because people think they're cool!  And GW hasn't recorded a single dollar of sales for LatD-specific products in years.  So the decision is "obvious"...  <sarcasm off>

Posted By efarrer on 08/14/2007 8:39 AM

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I suspect we have a couple from warseer who have come over to poke the hornet's nest after the link was posted .

I think so.  The thread with the link got closed though.  I think blackshirted Warseer gangs are going to people's houses and searching for any who dare critique the new codex.

I don't hate the new book, but it's a slap in the face to veteran gamers, and we're certainly allowed a few weeks to kvetch about it.

Am I the only one who prefers Dakka's policy of keeping closed threads around, rather than deleting them?

Posted By malfred on 08/14/2007 9:41 AM
They vape entire threads?

Unless it's a direct attack on them, that's just weird.

Well, in one of them I was defending HBMC's deconstruction, and Dakka as a whole.  I pointed out that while constant screaming cynicism gets old sometimes, Warseers howler monkey policy of screaming "cheese" or "hater" at anybody who either enjoys playing to win, or who has a complaint about GW.

It's a great board with plenty of activity, they just really drank the GW Kool Aid, and close down threads that get even slightly nasty.

Unlike Dakka, where the average thread feels like the Tupac/Biggie feud.

Posted By gorgon on 08/14/2007 9:41 AM
I think there's good and bad in the codex. Most of the bad stuff involves units with no clear purpose and cutesy random rolls. That has Gav's fingerprints all over it. The blandness is thanks to Jervis, who has always preferred stripped-down rules. It's funny how you can see the designer's personality and tastes come through so clearly.

It's too bad they laid some real stinkers in among the good stuff they did. I think the list wouldn't seem so bland if dreads, possessed, bikes, defilers, generic daemons etc. all seemed like more viable choices.

Actually I see Jervis fingerprints on the possessed table. It's the same garbage that I hated in the 3.0 codex.

Many of the things about the new list I hate are the things I hated about the 3.0 codex. No flavour encouraging mixed marking, almost no choice. It sounds like this book may have taken it a step further though making some choices so bad that it will be like the current High elf fantasy book (as well as Dark Angels and Blood Angels) where you have a multitude of choices and only one or two viable armies.

No thanks.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:39 AM

Posted By efarrer on 08/14/2007 8:39 AM

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I suspect we have a couple from warseer who have come over to poke the hornet's nest after the link was posted .

I think so.  The thread with the link got closed though.  I think blackshirted Warseer gangs are going to people's houses and searching for any who dare critique the new codex.

Am I the only one who prefers Dakka's policy of keeping closed threads around, rather than deleting them?

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:48 AM
Well, in one of them I was defending HBMC's deconstruction, and Dakka as a whole.  I pointed out that while constant screaming cynicism gets old sometimes, Warseers howler monkey policy of screaming "cheese" or "hater" at anybody who either enjoys playing to win, or who has a complaint about GW.

It's a great board with plenty of activity, they just really drank the GW Kool Aid, and close down threads that get even slightly nasty.

Unlike Dakka, where the average thread feels like the Tupac/Biggie feud.

Nah. I don't think it's that polite here.

But seriously, dissent is not welcome there and I think it has to do with the sheer numbers. I miss the original portent (pre forums) but if warseer closed tomoorow I don't think I'd miss it. The noise to signal ration is way too high there, and legit concerns are shouted down hard. I think that it gets worse when something contraversial comes up, such as this book. Dakka is a more elitist board and is not always newbie (player)  friendly, but there are so many vet players here that I think most people who post here have gotten sick of the koolaid and want something more nurishing (or alcholic). Seen it before and it don't impress much. Warseer is filled with people who haven't seen two or more editions. The average here seems to be three.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/14/2007 9:54 AM

"Whether he went on with the diary, or whether he did not go on with it, made no difference.  The Thought Police would get him just the same.  He had committed— would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper— the essential crime that contained all others in itself.  Thoughtcrime, they called it."

Posted By Necros on 08/14/2007 9:57 AM
Every time something new comes out or gets redone weather it's 40K or dungeons & dragons or everquest, people complain. Now, I don't personally play Chaos but I did at one point. I ditched em long ago because to me those cool looking night lords I was painting were really just marines with flappy wings on their heads. I already had a marine army, why did I want another? Chaos marines were just marines then, and they're just marines now. stats, armor, whatever. I'd prefer something balanced than something that's not, so if that means turning everything into vanilla, then so be it. Don't forget Vanilla is still good if you put a lot of chocolate syrup on top.

I really think they're just trying to take the game in 2 directions. You have the "standard" game that slowly becomes balanced across the board and meant for faster games and/or tournament play. Then you have Apocalypse for all the people who wanna just do their own thing. I'll be investing in the later

I'll add my name to the list of those thanking you for the review, H.B.M.C.  Very well written, and a few spots (such as the image of Space Marines attacking Castle Wolfenstein) had my wife, my son and I laughing out loud.

One of the things I find very interesting is that the Codex is coming out at a time when the BL Horus Heresy novels are in full swing.  5 books, so far, detailing the most pivotal time (so far) in the history of the Imperium, when half the original Space Marine Legions turned traitor, and rebelled against the Emperor.  When the true knowledge of Chaos, and it's corrupting (not random, sorry, nothing here about randomness) nature became known to all.  When a good portion of the storyline for the 40K universe was created.

And now, apparently, it's been shunted aside in the new Codex, to make way for Huron Blackeye and his Red Legion/formerly Astral Claws/formerly Tiger Claws (at least, I think it was Tiger Claws... anyone still have the original spread of the Badab War, from the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium.  Red Book?)

Speaking of which, I can't recall the name of the "new" renegades with the Black/tiger stripe colors, but those were the original colors of Huron's chapter, way back when.  How history repeats itself, albeit in a twisted fashion...

As for those talking about the greatness of the sameness that is Codex: Space Marines With Spikes, I'd like to add a few thoughts/comments:

For Age of Egos, who asked: "As a sidenote, perhaps a moment of curiousity, do rules really affect people this deeply, or is this internet drama?"

  Well, for me, they definitely did.  I play this game as a hobby... but I have other highly enjoyable hobbies as well.  And when something comes along that does its very best to suck the life out of my pleasure at playing, then I'll ignore it.  Like other people have said, if you don't like it, just play with your old Codex.  And I will.

As a sidenote, this just cost GW the $275.00 that is the new Chaos Marine Boxed Army, that I had been planning to buy in 11 days, when it was available in Canada.  It also cost them a $150.00 mail order my family was planning on making today for some bits, etc.  And my overall disgust with the blandness of the crap they're pushing out to make the game "playable" for Tourney folks when I've attended only one tourney, and most of the players I know are not that interested in Tournament play, has cost them another $350.00 I was planning on spending on a Warhammer Chaos Fantasy Army.  Instead, I'm going to be taking another look at Warmachine/Hordes, and I'm ordering the Warlord rules for something to look at.

To Ozymandias, who spake thus: "People only want to be slightly Chaotic.  4 Heavy support choices and Siren Prince are fluffy, but random possessed?... Whoa, there, that's too Chaotic for me."

Well, done, what an argument to support the new Codex.  Here's a grand idea, then, that I'm sure you'll like... From now on, when buying Devastator squads for Dark Angels (or any marines, heck, I'm not going to spoil the fun for them, too), you pay a specific points cost per "Heavy Marine," say, an extra 20 points, then roll on the following table to see what weapon you get:

1.) Autocannon  2.) Missile Launcher with Frag Missiles  3.) Heavy Bolter   4.) Missile Launcher with Krak Missiles  5.) Heavy Plasma Gun   6.) Lascannon

Oh, and remember, you can't roll to see what you get until you've set them up.  Fun, hey?   Like people are pointing out, ad nauseum, Chaos does not mean total randomness.  Have any of you read the fluff? the stories?  Chaos Marines are not "flip a coin to see what we do today" kind of people.  They plan, they plot, they are the rot that undermines the Imperium.  The only randomness I see attached to them is that the Imperium never really knows when they're going to strike next.  How does that equate to "roll d6 to see what kind of head you're wearing today?"

Final point on that, even if GW wanted to keep the randomness of the Possessed in the Codex, there are better ways to do it.  Why not make the table of mutations into stat changes? Demonic Strength: +1 Strength; Demonic Reflexes: +1 Initiative, etc.  Then you can place your Possessed with the knowledge that whatever they get may not put them too out of place for your plans... even if your plans are totally random!

To Scuddman, who really said far too many things I wanted to comment on, but will reply to these: "Oh, I see, what you really meant to say was Chaotic and overpowered.  Or you want consistency, which is hardly "chaotic" or random."

Sigh... ok, let's try this again, class, shall we?  Chaos, in the world of Games Workshop, is the corruption of mankind.  The gods of Chaos seek nothing else but that.  Mutations are an outward sign of that corruption.  The Chaos Marines plan carefully to destroy the Imperium; they don't wake up every day and roll dice or flip coins to see what they're going to do!  Please, try to remember this point; it could save your life someday! (or at least allow you an armor save) 

Scuddman: "The tiny, 3 columned text for the Wargear section was only fun for the power gamers. I don't think you understand the first idea of game balance or game design if you believe that a billion options is good for a game. It might be fun for YOU, but it isn't fun to the other person on the other side of the board. "

Yup, that's me, I admit it, I'm a power gamer who loved that text.  Never once played more than 3 oblits with my Iron Warriors (heck, I play a Raptor Squad with my IW force, just for kicks), never played a Siren Prince, in fact I stayed clear of the more abusive things in the Chaos Codex, but apparently I'm a power gamer because I used some of that text. 

In fact, looking through the Daemonic Gifts section of Chaos 3.5, I see now that there's only 2 I never tried: Daemon Armour and Daemonic Venom.  Everything else, I played with to see what it could do.  And kept trying it, because I wanted to.  My Daemon Prince for my Dark Lords (my Black Legion) had Daemonic Speed (Spider like lower torso, with 4 long taloned limbs)... might not be that effective, but I had fun modelling him.  So despite what you think, Scuddman, some of used the gifts, et. al., for fun and for modelling purposes.  Sorry to shoot down your world view like that, but Life happens at the funniest times...

One final Scuddman point: "Okay, stupid talk about logic aside, let me talk about the variety of the codex. Yes, there are a lot less options for sergeants and the like. But take an army like Thousand sons, where their demons were unviable and all their basic troops were rubric. THere are now a LOT more options in terms of viable units than there were before. Tzeentch havocs, tzeentch raptors, tzeentch chosen with infiltrate, etc. On top of that, if you just want to take rubric marines that is still viable too. In my eyes, the legions of Tzeentch became a lot more viable, gained a lot more options, but had to trade a lot of their confusing special rules for them. Is that bad? I don't think so. A more balanced army with a lot more variety in units but a lot less silly upgrades? "

While this may be nice for those that play a generic brand of Chaos, for a person playing a true Thousand Sons force, using the fluff as written for his background, his army is essentially gone.  I think that's the thing that irks many Chaos players.  I own an Emperor's Children army, as well as Death Guard, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Dark Lords (Black Legion) and a LatD force... easily over 20,000 points of Chaos.  And I find I have no interest in going back and snapping limbs off, or doing yet another reorg (hmm... GW: the Dilberts of the TTG universe? Reorg! Reorg!) because GW chose to leave out the legion specific rules for my forces.  I will still play Chaos, but it will be old book, non abusive Chaos.  As for the "silly" upgrades... what? They're silly because you say so?  I happened to like a lot of them... apparently in my world, my opinion counts more than yours does, and if I wanted a more balanced army with a lot more unit variety, I'd stick to Black Legion, thank you very much...

Yakface: The simple truth is that less options in an army list means less chances for abuse. Anyone is free to disagree with that basic premise but I firmly believe it to be true.

When Jervis said they will be moving the codices towards more of a balanced tournament 1,500 point focus and leave more of the fun stuff to supplements (like Apocalypse) they clearly meant it, and I for one am very, very, very, very, very, very pleased.

To some extent, I agree with the less options = less abuse statement.  The thing that annoys me is that it's damming every player with the same brush (to totally brutalize a metaphor).  What they are now apparently saying is that Tourney players are the way we're going now, and screw you if you just happen to be a non-tourney player.  Why couldn't they just have the options in the Codex, in a section entitled, oh, I dunno, Daemonic Options, and then left them out of the Tournament Legal lists?  That way you still leave those of us that don't do the Tourney circuit a bone or two to chew, but keep the temptations away from the Tournament Builds.   And as an aside, if the players you're playing with at home are STILL using abusive lists, even in a fun environment, maybe it's time to have a little talk with them? Or just boycott them until they get their act together?

The fun stuff like Apocalypse... right.  I'm assuming Apocalypse is going to bring back my Death Guard rules to me?  They may have been slow, they may not have been incredibly effective, but dammit, they were mine!  And now... now, they're just the Elmo Legion with Nurgle marks.  woo hoo. I shall try to contain my excitement.

Another thing strikes me funny about the hype surrounding Apocalypse.  I've heard mention from a lot of people on different forums about how it's going to allow you to play with all your minis!  Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you already do that if you really want to?  Since when did GW have to officially sanction it?  And yes, I know that apparently there is more to Apocalypse than just that (like mega deals in an attempt to convice shareholders that the company is righting itself), but that thought struck me funny... "Huzzah! GW says we can use ALL our minis, now, Bubba!"  8)

And, finally, dienekes96: When the 2002 edition was released, we worked through a very different argument. Why was there so much room for abuse? My argument (over and over) was that the push towards tourney lists and the emphasis of the powergamer was going to be a deathknell to the "catch-all" randomness of the army lists. I argued, from a fluff and fun perspective, that the huge variety within the Codex was a boon, *if* you could play for fun and not merely min-max lists. In a perfect world, I agree, GW could perfectly balance such a huge variety of bits and bobs. But there is no fiscal incentive for them to do so. In the past, they pushed that burden onto their players, and over time the players became less and less willing to police themselves. They merely derided GW for not doing so.

And here we are. GW is self-policing. I even agree with you that it's depressing to see the sameness among the lists, but as JJ said at GD (whether you agree or not), the lists they saw at tourneys were the same things as well. My problem is: why respond to the tourneys? Because they were vocal, through sites just like this.

This would be a bigger deal for me without Apocalypse around the corner, which will hopefully loosen up the sphincters of Rules Only as Written gamers. In short, I agree with your postulation, except with the caveat that the players are reaping what they have sown.

I have to agree with most of this, sadly.  Except I still think it would have been easy enough for them to make some Non-Tourney options for the Codex that still would allow for some fun/weird/funny builds.  But that would have taken away from planning the new box set deals for Apocalypse, I guess... or taken away from the lunchtime games of 40K.  And if the players in your group are taking the game so seriously that they have to abuse the lists in even fun games (a la Toreador's group/gaming environment), maybe it's time to set everyone down for a hard talk about what's going to be acceptable/unacceptable.  And if they still insist on the "it's in the Codex" so I'm gonna use it argument, don't play them until they tone it down.  Or make them eat a Typhus model.  Or something... but don't let them continue to destroy the game for the rest of us.

Final note... Apocalypse is around the corner.  Actually, from reading GW's finances, reading posts here and elsewhere about the way their games are going, and the continuing work at creating Blandhammer 40K, I'd say the Apocalypse is already here. 

Thanks for listening,

Vilegrimm